Ukraine invasion

[Atilla]

Yes, Hitler had much better technology and information before invading Poland.

Hitler n intelligence is an oxymoron.

So where did his intelligence go invading Russia through Ukraine?

 

[Atilla]

This is WW3, time to wake up....

No, Ukraine is defending and is backed be the entire free world.

This is Georgia with more support.

Russia is not in the postion to ask anything, a shit army with shit equipment and shit tactics.

Certainly not ww3.

Not by backed by India or China. They sort of represent big chunk of the world.

As before there is a cost to everyone. Great cost because NATO dogs wants to play big dick.

Sounds like you are carrying personal luggage here?

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really thinking?

 

[counter_violent]

Give her a medal. How to raise awareness Russian style.

Ukraine war: Editor interrupts Russian TV news show

The woman held a sign reading "no war" behind a newsreader on Russian state-controlled TV.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Sounds like you are carrying personal luggage here?

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really thinking?

Nothing personal but I dont' like to be f***** around, Putin has been f****** around everyoune since months telling he wasn't invading.
I have already told what I think.
Before I thought Putin was a strong leader, not democratic but smart and suited to rule a difficult country like Russia, not a good guy but but credible, to be respected.
After the invasion the mask has fallen, now it is clear that we are dealing with a gangster, completelly unreliable, his words have no value.
He has become a pariah like Kim jon, nobody wants to deal with him anymore.
His regime will collapse very soon and also Russia will collapse.

 

[counter_violent]

Nothing personal but I dont' like to be f around, Putin has been * around everyoune since months telling he wasn't invading.
I have already told what I think.
Before I thought Putin was a strong leader, not democratic but smart and suited to rule a difficult country like Russia, not a good guy but but credible, to be respected.
After the invasion the mask has fallen, now it is clear that we are dealing with a gangster, completelly unreliable, his words have no value.
He has become a pariah like Kim jon, nobody wants to deal with him anymore.
His regime will collapse very soon and also Russia will collapse.

It's true, you can't do what Putin is doing in this day and age. Forget all the justification arguments and petty squabbles. Putin is now getting the full retaliatory treatment and will end up paying the price. Also, nobody is going to bow down to a third rate dictator running a tenth rate country. It's just not happening. As awareness of the atrocities spreads across Russia, we can expect internal forces to resolve the Putin issue. This is about a population that needs to reach critical mass in order to effect sea change in the way Russia moves forward.
My personal feeling is that Russia has blown it. Hard to see any way back for them until they ditch communism all together and fully get onboard with the modern world.

 

[Atilla]

Nothing personal but I dont' like to be * around, Putin has been fucking around everyoune since months telling he wasn't invading.
I have already told what I think.
Before I thought Putin was a strong leader, not democratic but smart and suited to rule a difficult country like Russia, not a good guy but but credible, to be respected.
After the invasion the mask has fallen, now it is clear that we are dealing with a gangster, completelly unreliable, his words have no value.
He has become a pariah like Kim jon, nobody wants to deal with him anymore.
His regime will collapse very soon and also Russia will collapse.

I think many others thought much the same, including me. Could it ever happen? I thought the big bear was just showing teeth with the build up.

However, I do feel sympathy to some extent as NATO just pushed too far.

fwiw Russia feeling much like you being faffed around. From my objective and neutral stance, I see it in no different light than the Cuban missile crises. I do believe Kennedy would have taken out those bases and stated as such in no uncertain terms.

There is enough evidence out there, Russia clearly stated her demands and red lines. Comedian and other parties seem to have paid no heed to them. US is having wet dreams anticipating another Afghanistan operation at expense of other people's lives. No change there.

Next time Russia sits on the negotiation table perhaps people will take better notice of what is said and not fob her off.

 

[Atilla]

It's true, you can't do what Putin is doing in this day and age. Forget all the justification arguments and petty squabbles. Putin is now getting the full retaliatory treatment and will end up paying the price. Also, nobody is going to bow down to a third rate dictator running a tenth rate country. It's just not happening. As awareness of the atrocities spreads across Russia, we can expect internal forces to resolve the Putin issue. This is about a population that needs to reach critical mass in order to effect sea change in the way Russia moves forward.
My personal feeling is that Russia has blown it. Hard to see any way back for them until they ditch communism all together and fully get onboard with the modern world.

Putin is old. I'm sure the old guard have calculated this into their exit strategies.

Aren't you getting carried away incy wincy bit. Third rate dictator running a tenth rate country??? Hardly so imo. Yes many people do not like him but the middle class not very big in Russia. Sanctions will create new opportunities and markets for Russia.

Sanctions will also bring much hardship to the West, loss of earnings and Russian money.

I was intrigued to hear Russia will pay debt in roubles. Fab idea imo.

 

[counter_violent]

Putin is old. I'm sure the old guard have calculated this into their exit strategies.

Aren't you getting carried away incy wincy bit. Third rate dictator running a tenth rate country??? Hardly so imo. Yes many people do not like him but the middle class not very big in Russia. Sanctions will create new opportunities and markets for Russia.

Sanctions will also bring much hardship to the West, loss of earnings and Russian money.

I was intrigued to hear Russia will pay debt in roubles. Fab idea imo.

LOL
Att m8, allow me to explain how this works. Russia decides to pay debts in devalued Roubles that nobody wants nor can use for anything. So Russia creates more Roubles, thus devaluing it's currency that nobody wants nor can use....and on and on and on. Where do you think this is going....out of control internal inflation, essentially impoverishing the people quicker than you can say....."Putin has invaded Ukraine". Nobody agrees with his P O V ....he's gone and so is the way Russia operates going forward. Communism in Russia is dead for good and the idiot in charge will have achieved the exact opposite of his goal.

Spectacular incompetence by a 2 bit dictator.

Hard to believe we are living through this rich historical period. Just one game changer after another.

 

[Atilla]

LOL
Att m8, allow me to explain how this works. Russia decides to pay debts in devalued Roubles that nobody wants nor can use for anything. So Russia creates more Roubles, thus devaluing it's currency that nobody wants nor can use....and on and on and on. Where do you think this is going....out of control internal inflation, essentially impoverishing the people quicker than you can say....."Putin has invaded Ukraine". Nobody agrees with his P O V ....he's gone and so is the way Russia operates going forward. Communism in Russia is dead for good and the idiot in charge will have achieved the exact opposite of his goal.

Spectacular incompetence by a 2 bit dictator.

Hard to believe we are living through this rich historical period. Just one game changer after another.

Well so he doesn't have dollars and can't pay in dollars. What is the creditor to do?

Take his oil, gold, gas?

Russia has much to offer.

NATO has brought this about because of its desire to expand.

I'm afraid you are not reading the runestones as well as you should.

 

[counter_violent]

Well so he doesn't have dollars and can't pay in dollars. What is the creditor to do?

Take his oil, gold, gas?

Russia has much to offer.

NATO has brought this about because of its desire to expand.

I'm afraid you are not reading the runestones as well as you should.

Well so he doesn't have dollars and can't pay in dollars. What is the creditor to do?

Take his oil, gold, gas?

Russia has much to offer.

NATO has brought this about because of its desire to expand.

I'm afraid you are not reading the runestones as well as you should.

No, NATO doesn't want to expand. Countries, historically and present are driven towards joining NATO because of an aggressive neighbour. That is the reasoning.

Finland historically was perfectly happy being neutral but since Putin has risen up they are looking to NATO for protection and security.

BTW, if this situation does escalate and we do all end up in Russia, then I would expect we will take the Oil Gas and Gold as reparation for the destruction that Putin has wreaked upon it's neighbours.

 

[Atilla]

I don't know... I never really saw or see Russia as a threat.

I see USA foreign policy as a threat to the globe.

I've gone from supporting USA and NATO to seeing them as sh!t stirring corrupt colonial and exploitative powers and gang like stance projecting bully boy tactics.

I see injustice, hypocrisy and many death and destructions arising from it.

I see we can gain more from open and free World where goods and service can be purchased at fair prices in open markets. More than implementing nation friendly puppet regimes where gun ship diplomacy steals from local people.

I see US as having lost the Iraq and Iran war. Lost Vietnam. Lost Afghanistan. I just see lots of destruction and deaths.

Capitalism is all consuming like the one ring. The forever accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few.

I have grown disillusioned with the regular BBC speel which is just plain b0ll0x imho. I see and hear the same drivel and things just don't add up.

I guess communications have just simply broken down that people just don't listen to what is said or asked anymore. So so very sad.

So forgive me guys but I see the West and US of A in particular as corrupt, broke and very much the bully here.

 

[timsk]

So forgive me guys but I see the West and US of A in particular as corrupt, broke and very much the bully here.

This is a contender for 'Best Post by Atilla' and certainly the most balanced and, IMO, accurate assessment of the current state of play.

I really despair at the reduction of the whole argument to 'NATO and the west are good, Putin and Russia are bad' when there's any amount of evidence on this thread alone - let alone elsewhere - that nothing could be further from the truth. And the idea that Russia is going to hell in a handcart is ludicrous - it's actually doing pretty well. Sales of its oil and gas are through the roof. A conflict that sends commodity prices rocketing favours the seller and not the buyer. Who buys Russia's oil and gas - we do!

Yes, Putin should call a ceasefire and withdraw his forces immediately, no question about it. He's made it very clear what has to happen to bring that about; demands which strike me as being not unreasonable. If we/Ukraine won't agree to them, then it's up to us to put forward an alternative, workable, realistic solution that will end the conflict. To think that Russia is just going to back down because of sanctions or crumble from within and that it will rid itself of Putin and hurl itself into the warm embrace of our version of democracy is not a solution - it's a fantasy. Hell will freeze over before that happens and, in the meantime, Russia will have taken Ukraine. The war will end, but that'll be because the Russian 'victory' will be total and emphatic and the west will be seen by the rest of the world for what it is; arrogant, impotent and pathetic.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

NATO has brought this about because of its desire to expand.

You keep pushing on this but NATO never forced countries to join.
Otherwise Sweden and Finland would be forced to join instead of baltics.
Clearly people and coutries prefer to be protected by US than Russia.
I ma not saying US is perfect, for exaple healthcare and education are better in Russia but these don't matter when speaking about security.
US is a democracy while Russia is a cleptocracy.

 

[timsk]

Further to my post above, this is a much more likely scenario regarding how the war will end:

Tell Me How Ukraine Ends​

 

[counter_violent]

This is a contender for 'Best Post by Atilla' and certainly the most balanced and, IMO, accurate assessment of the current state of play.

I really despair at the reduction of the whole argument to 'NATO and the west are good, Putin and Russia are bad' when there's any amount of evidence on this thread alone - let alone elsewhere - that nothing could be further from the truth. And the idea that Russia is going to hell in a handcart is ludicrous - it's actually doing pretty well. Sales of its oil and gas are through the roof. A conflict that sends commodity prices rocketing favours the seller and not the buyer. Who buys Russia's oil and gas - we do!

Yes, Putin should call a ceasefire and withdraw his forces immediately, no question about it. He's made it very clear what has to happen to bring that about; demands which strike me as being not unreasonable. If we/Ukraine won't agree to them, then it's up to us to put forward an alternative, workable, realistic solution that will end the conflict. To think that Russia is just going to back down because of sanctions or crumble from within and that it will rid itself of Putin and hurl itself into the warm embrace of our version of democracy is not a solution - it's a fantasy. Hell will freeze over before that happens and, in the meantime, Russia will have taken Ukraine. The war will end, but that'll be because the Russian 'victory' will be total and emphatic and the west will be seen by the rest of the world for what it is; arrogant, impotent and pathetic.
Tim.

Well Tim, the Ukrainians look pretty determined to me. Russia will be out of ammo in 10 days. Military column is still stalled outside of Kiyv and coming under increasing attack. They don't have the resources, secure supply lines or man power to take over Ukraine, so your idea that they can win anything is just plain wrong.

I've already explained about Russia's Oil and Gas and the transportation of these. Perhaps I should put some meat on the bone. They are vulnerable and can be shut down at a stroke by various means. This would totally finish Putins Russia and his ridiculous aggressive demands.

I agree, the Wests leaders are a pretty pathetic bunch. They have certainly taken their eye off the ball, hence the situation we now find ourselves in.

You might like this talk.

 

[Atilla]

You keep pushing on this but NATO never forced countries to join.
Otherwise Sweden and Finland would be forced to join instead of baltics.
Clearly people and coutries prefer to be protected by US than Russia.
I ma not saying US is perfect, for exaple healthcare and education are better in Russia but these don't matter when speaking about security.
US is a democracy while Russia is a cleptocracy.

Agree with this red bit of what you say.

Do you not think this applies to Russia as well?

We are in a bit of a catch-22 here.

As for US, they feel quite at liberty to attack other countries 000s of miles away in the name of national interest and security but you seem to be struggling with the same terms for Russia.

Crazy we are going round in circles.


So Ukraine is encouraged to join NATO and you are happy to phrase it in your terms, about going to WW3 to make this happen for the pure reason that Russia is hell bent on world domination fighting wars all over the place and US is trying to defend global freedoms?

 

[CavaliereVerde]

As for US, they feel quite at liberty to attack other countries 000s of miles away in the name of national interest and security but you seem to be struggling with the same terms for Russia.

I don't like what US is doing to promote his empire but here we are discussing about what Putin is doing in Europe.
I dont' like NATO and the US empire but it is better for Europe than seconding Putin and his dreams to restore USSR.
US is not the good guy but Putin is much worse.

 

[tomorton]

There are big differences between how the US has acted historically and Russia's action in Ukraine.

US military interventions have mostly been UN-sanctioned. Whether the UN is a respectable force or a club for blow-hards and dictators and whether its resolution mean anything are beside the point.

The US has usually acted in multi-country coalitions.

The US has usually been acting either to defend itself following attack or to pre-empt imminent or actual Communist or Islamic extremist take-overs.

The US has usually not taken military action to expand its own territory.

The US has usually not intervened in other countries in order to establish a totalitarian ideology.

On a social scale, despite its questionable foreign policies, the US is the largest destination of choice for emigration from other countries.

 

[timsk]

Well Tim, the Ukrainians look pretty determined to me. Russia will be out of ammo in 10 days. Military column is still stalled outside of Kiyv and coming under increasing attack. They don't have the resources, secure supply lines or man power to take over Ukraine, so your idea that they can win anything is just plain wrong.

Hi c_v,
This is the narrative being pumped out by western MSM. I'm surprised, shocked even, that you of all people appear to be happy to swallow it hook, line and sinker. If you read the article I linked to in my last post, it addresses this very point. Now, I don't have a view one way or the other - I'm just looking at it like a trade and assessing what's most probable/improbable. It appears to me - and I accept I could be wrong (indeed, in some ways, I hope I am), that your assessment falls on the improbable line of the divide.

I've already explained about Russia's Oil and Gas and the transportation of these. Perhaps I should put some meat on the bone. They are vulnerable and can be shut down at a stroke by various means. This would totally finish Putins Russia and his ridiculous aggressive demands.

True, you have. But what you've not addressed properly is that the west can't afford to turn off the supplies, so sanctions don't apply to oil and gas from which Russia generates most of its revenue. By the time the west has struck deals with other suppliers (mostly criminal regimes that are as bad - if not worse - than Russia), Putin will have done likewise. See today's Mail Online:
India looks to bail out Russia with discount crude oil purchase India, which imports 80% of its oil needs, usually buys only about 1% from Russia. But following price increases, New Delhi is looking at how it can reduce its energy bill, reports the Mail.

I agree, the Wests leaders are a pretty pathetic bunch. They have certainly taken their eye off the ball, hence the situation we now find ourselves in.

Oh good, at least we agree on something! ;-)

You might like this talk.

Cheers,
Tim.

 

[timsk]

As for US, they feel quite at liberty to attack other countries 000s of miles away in the name of national interest and security but you seem to be struggling with the same terms for Russia.

You're on fire today, At'!
This is the point that everyone, everywhere who thinks that Putin's the personification of pure evil and that NATO and the west are pure as driven snow - really need to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest. Only when it's acknowledged (along with its implications) - will any progress be made in finding a solution to this crisis.
Tim.