Ukraine invasion

[tomorton]

You're on fire today, At'!
This is the point that everyone, everywhere who thinks that Putin's the personification of pure evil and that NATO and the west are pure as driven snow - really need to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest. Only when it's acknowledged (along with its implications) - will any progress be made in finding a solution to this crisis.
Tim.

On which point Tim, I hope you'll agree, at some time we are going to have to sit down with Putin (or rather stand behind the curtain while Zelensky sits down with him).

At that point, we are going to have to give Putin something to make him go away. Such as a lot of eastern Ukraine.

And later on, we're going to want to do more business with Russia.

We really don't need to put Putin in a corner where he faces a fight or die decision, and we definitely don't want to alienate wider Russian political/military influence.

As a demonstration of what a fight or die decision looks like, that's where Zelensky is. This lunatic chancer is calling for WW3.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

At that point, we are going to have to give Putin something to make him go away. Such as a lot of eastern Ukraine.

Yes just like Georgia, give him 20% of the country so the gangster is happy with the "protection" and we can go back to old business.
Next chapter, invading Moldova to expand Transnistria.

 

[tomorton]

Yes just like Georgia, give him 20% of the country so the gangster is happy with the "protection" and we can go back to old business.
Next chapter, invading Moldova to expand Transnistria.

I think its called realpolitik. Its the art of doing business with your enemies and bullying your friends.

 

[timsk]

On which point Tim, I hope you'll agree, at some time we are going to have to sit down with Putin (or rather stand behind the curtain while Zelensky sits down with him).

At that point, we are going to have to give Putin something to make him go away. Such as a lot of eastern Ukraine.

And later on, we're going to want to do more business with Russia.

We really don't need to put Putin in a corner where he faces a fight or die decision, and we definitely don't want to alienate wider Russian political/military influence.

As a demonstration of what a fight or die decision looks like, that's where Zelensky is. This lunatic chancer is calling for WW3.

100% agree with everything you've said here, Tom.
Zelensky is the new darling of the west who can do no wrong and gets a standing ovation in the commons. Talk about playing to the gallery - but he's an actor and rather a good one unfortunately - so no surprise there. In my eyes he's as dangerous - perhaps more so - than Putin.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Talk about playing to the gallery - but he's an actor and rather a good one unfortunately - so no surprise there. In my eyes he's as dangerous - perhaps more so - than Putin.

I am more scared by spies and gangsters than actors.

 

[Mumpsimus]

100% agree with everything you've said here, Tom.
Zelensky is the new darling of the west who can do no wrong and gets a standing ovation in the commons. Talk about playing to the gallery - but he's an actor and rather a good one unfortunately - so no surprise there. In my eyes he's as dangerous - perhaps more so - than Putin.
Tim.

Since we're rubbishing the US/Nato/the West/Europe perhaps in the same vein we should also be including Ronald Reagan who was at best a mediocre B movie actor but then went on to be the single most dangerous man on the planet. For those that haven't heard his stand-up routine about bombing Russia, it'll make you die laughing....

At least Zelensky is more a Red Nose than Red Button kind of guy.

 

[timsk]

If humour is the name of the game, one can always rely on the very excellent Andrew Lawrence for some biting satire. Enjoy . . .

 

[tomorton]

Since we're rubbishing the US/Nato/the West/Europe perhaps in the same vein we should also be including Ronald Reagan who was at best a mediocre B movie actor but then went on to be the single most dangerous man on the planet. For those that haven't heard his stand-up routine about bombing Russia, it'll make you die laughing....

At least Zelensky is more a Red Nose than Red Button kind of guy.

I have to admit that Reagan proved that even an actor can be a good president. As we're talking about Russia, its undeniable that he took a very hard line against the Soviets, and right or wrong he won that one.

Most sources rank Reagan as one of the best US Presidents.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

 

[timsk]

Really informative interview - well worth watching . . .

"When Putin launched his invasion of Ukraine it was under the guise of ‘denazifying’ the country. But are there really any Nazis in Ukraine? Or is this just a story spun by the Kremlin? Aris Roussinos joins Freddie Sayers to unpick this contentious topic and seek some insight into Ukraine’s far-Right factions."

 

[counter_violent]

Really informative interview - well worth watching . . .

"When Putin launched his invasion of Ukraine it was under the guise of ‘denazifying’ the country. But are there really any Nazis in Ukraine? Or is this just a story spun by the Kremlin? Aris Roussinos joins Freddie Sayers to unpick this contentious topic and seek some insight into Ukraine’s far-Right factions."

What's informative about it?

Shock horror.....Ukraine has a small number of people who have right of center view points.

These very same people who have put everything on the line in Eastern Ukraine battling Putin's previous aggression. It's a good job that Ukranian society consists of different people, because if they were all "talking heads", then Russia would simply march in and take over.

This is yet another example of Doers v Talking heads (so called experts) and we have all seen how that ends up !

Doers, when they get organised, can topple the establishment.

That's exactly what needs to happen with Putin. I have every confidence that the Ukrainians are a patriotic nation of doers and will achieve their aim, to repel the aggressor which will lead to his removal. Putin is beyond stupid with this latest stunt. Not only has he secured his own downfall, but has impoverished the Russian people for a generation.

Putin is a victim of his own policy of silencing his critics. When you surround yourself with "yes men", then don't be surprised when it all comes crashing down, because you actually believe in your own misguided, ill informed decision making. What a numpty he is !

 

[counter_violent]

This is informative.

It tells us all we need to know about this accidental President turned leader, the resolve of Ukrainians, the uniting of support for Ukraine and against Russia.

How Volodymyr Zelensky Defended Ukraine and United the World

Ukraine and its leader seemed to transcend their roles as victims of Russia's aggression

time.com

 

[timsk]

This is informative.

It tells us all we need to know about this accidental President turned leader, the resolve of Ukrainians, the uniting of support for Ukraine and against Russia.

c_v,
Zelensky is advocating WW3. You appear to think this is a good idea. When a nuke lands on Manchester - you'll soon change your mind - but it'll be too late by then.

Yes, the Ukranians have resolve and I fully support them; it's completely wrong that they are being killed and made to suffer in the way they are. No ifs, no buts. However, escalating the war to include the rest of Europe and the U.S. serves no ones interests and will merely turn a disaster into a worldwide catastrophe. As Tom rightly said, Zelensky is lunatic chancer and IMO, as dangerous as Putin, more so in as much as he has charisma and the ear of the sycophantic west, for whom the war is a blessing and serves their collective interests very well. I urge you to try and park your intense dislike of Putin - which I understand entirely - and look at the whole situation dispassionately and in the round - much like you would a trade.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Strongly desagree, Zelensky has charisma and balls and is a true leader while Putin his a gangster trying everything to preserve his cleptocracy.
There is no "soft" diplomatic solution of the Putin problem.

 

[tomorton]

Strongly desagree, Zelensky has charisma and balls and is a true leader while Putin his a gangster trying everything to preserve his cleptocracy.
There is no "soft" diplomatic solution of the Putin problem.

Whaaaat?

Even Zelensky is hoping for peace talks to resolve the war. from the BBC News website (so-called) -
Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has indicated progress in the peace talks, following Tuesday’s round of negotiations.
In a video address late last night, Zelensky revealed “the positions in the negotiations already sound more realistic.”

He might sound more credible if he had not called for NATO to start WW3 by putting combat aircraft into the Ukrainian skies to shoot down Russian military aircraft, but hey, nobody's perfect.

We must not make Putin think he is going to lose power in Russia. If he is deposed he is a dead man. If he thinks that, he might very conceivably take an even more drastic gamble with a winner takes all pre-emptive strike on NATO. This might force his Russian competitors for the top job to get behind him and win WW3, before they deal with domestic political issues.

 

[timsk]

Strongly desagree, Zelensky has charisma and balls and is a true leader while Putin his a gangster trying everything to preserve his cleptocracy.
There is no "soft" diplomatic solution of the Putin problem.

So CV, you want WW3 as well?
😲

 

[CavaliereVerde]

We are already in WW3.
We should focus on the real problem: Putin.
Seconding dictators has never worked.
Victory for Ukraine is very important for the russians to get rid of cleptocracy.
A better future for Russia and for the rest of the world.

 

[tomorton]

We are already in WW3.
We should focus on the real problem: Putin.
Seconding dictators has never worked.
Victory for Ucraine is very important for the russians to get rid of cleptocracy.
A better future for Russia and for the rest of the world.

You are in a tiny majority here. But also globally.

If NATO and the west agreed with your view, we would have attacked Russia, maybe without even waiting for Russia to cross anyone's border.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Ukraine is the dictator trap for him, something he thought as an easy task.
Another couple of months and it will be game over for Mr Putin.
I think it will happen something similar to Ciausescu.

 

[timsk]

We are already in WW3.

That's being disingenuous CV. As I'm sure you realise, I meant fighting by European and U.S. troops with the very real prospect of nuclear war. That hasn't happened.

We should focus on the real problem: Putin.

There are two sides to every story. Focusing solely on Putin solves nothing. You've demonstrated that - as I've asked you how to resolve the conflict and your only solution is getting rid of Putin. Taking him out will solve nothing - for the reasons Tom points out. Also, remember the Arab spring and the toppling of those leaders? Creating a power vacuum in Russia is about the most dangerous and irresponsible thing that could happen. Look at Iraq after they got rid of Saddam!

Seconding dictators has never worked.

I'm not supporting Putin but, like him or loathe him - for better or for worse, he is the Russian leader. You seem to want to magic him away and think when he's gone everything will be just fine and dandy. That's a fairy tale: it's not how things work in the real world.

Victory for Ukraine is very important for the russians to get rid of cleptocracy.

Yes, up to a point. Bur the line we can not cross is involving European and U.S. forces and the prospect of WW3.

A better future for Russia and for the rest of the world.

Of course, everyone wants that. But WW3 isn't the answer. Taking Putin out isn't the answer. You're going to have to come up with something tangible, realistic and practical that everyone can agree to so that everyone - Putin included - can save face, keep their monstrous egos in tact and claim victory to their domestic audience.
Tim.