UK Politics

tomorton said:
Yes, but how?
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It's all to do with culture isn't it? Criminality and law breaking is no longer seen as wrong by many people. The "greed is good" mentality is far more widespread. Successive governments have swept this problem under the carpet. We've emasculated the police, failed to tackle drugs and organised child abuse while concentrating on gender issues and other important things like "hate crimes".

Increasing penalties is not the answer – look at the crime rates in the US and their very heavy penalties. I think this is all about "broken window" syndrome – Rudy Giuliani sorted out New York crime for a while when he was in charge didn't he?

The problem is that we have no decent leadership.
 
sminicooper said:
It's all to do with culture isn't it? Criminality and law breaking is no longer seen as wrong by many people. The "greed is good" mentality is far more widespread. Successive governments have swept this problem under the carpet. We've emasculated the police, failed to tackle drugs and organised child abuse while concentrating on gender issues and other important things like "hate crimes".

Increasing penalties is not the answer – look at the crime rates in the US and their very heavy penalties. I think this is all about "broken window" syndrome – Rudy Giuliani sorted out New York crime for a while when he was in charge didn't he?

The problem is that we have no decent leadership.
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Do enlighten us with what that is.
 
tomorton said:
Yes, but how?
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As smini says, it’s to do with culture and that’s a slow burn thing via education, parental influence and government (could add church to the list in the past). When I was a lad the papers always had stories about old soldiers being found starving in garrets because they wouldn’t go on the dole because they thought of it as charity and they were too proud to accept charity. Not nowadays where it’s just thought of as a right.

Government for years have prattled on about peoples’ “rights” but have said little about peoples’ responsibilities as citizens. No surprise people have grown up with the attitudes they have.
 
barjon said:
As smini says, it’s to do with culture and that’s a slow burn thing via education, parental influence and government (could add church to the list in the past). When I was a lad the papers always had stories about old soldiers being found starving in garrets because they wouldn’t go on the dole because they thought of it as charity and they were too proud to accept charity. Not nowadays where it’s just thought of as a right.

Government for years have prattled on about peoples’ “rights” but have said little about peoples’ responsibilities as citizens. No surprise people have grown up with the attitudes they have.
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In the examples you give jon there's always an authority figure. If the individual transgresses, there is this authority figure they will "get into trouble with" - teachers, parents, the local priest - you could add neighbours, their God, maybe even peers.

So the principle has always been, people will do the right thing if they believe will get caught and then suffer for doing the wrong thing. This worked, as you can testify. It is not that people were more virtuous per se in ages past, its that they knew there were rules and laws, they believed they would get caught if they broke them and they feared the consequences from authority.

As these other authority figures are now irrelevant to many in society, society is rational to provide a substitute, the police. This principle worked in the past as we both agree. The answer to crime is more policing.
 
tomorton said:
In the examples you give jon there's always an authority figure. If the individual transgresses, there is this authority figure they will "get into trouble with" - teachers, parents, the local priest - you could add neighbours, their God, maybe even peers.

So the principle has always been, people will do the right thing if they believe will get caught and then suffer for doing the wrong thing. This worked, as you can testify. It is not that people were more virtuous per se in ages past, its that they knew there were rules and laws, they believed they would get caught if they broke them and they feared the consequences from authority.

As these other authority figures are now irrelevant to many in society, society is rational to provide a substitute, the police. This principle worked in the past as we both agree. The answer to crime is more policing.
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Agree with you in most part, tomo, but it’s not all about authority and fear of getting caught. I doubt that the kind lady who found my wife’s handbag and handed it in to the police (with all the money intact) was frightened of being caught if she didn’t. She did it because she though it was right to do so (or wrong to keep it).
 
barjon said:
Agree with you in most part, tomo, but it’s not all about authority and fear of getting caught. I doubt that the kind lady who found my wife’s handbag and handed it in to the police (with all the money intact) was frightened of being caught if she didn’t. She did it because she though it was right to do so (or wrong to keep it).
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Well fair play to her jon but she's not someone with the absence of moral direction in her life. We're talking about the people who are absolutely not her - for them, we need more effective police.
 
tomorton said:
Well fair play to her jon but she's not someone with the absence of moral direction in her life. We're talking about the people who are absolutely not her - for them, we need more effective police.
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Victim reparation schemes (not sure of the exact terminology) seem to have a bigger impact on reducing reoffending. Victims visit prisoners serving their sentences in a group presentation type of thing and tell their stories and then prisoners have an opportunity to show remorse and tell their story also. The victim can be a victim or member of the victims family and is not necessarily speaking to the perpetrator of their crime.

It takes some brave victims to do this and I think there is a shortage of those around, but it seems to work.

It doesn’t stop the initial offence being committed in the first place though!
 
Signalcalc said:
Victim reparation schemes (not sure of the exact terminology) seem to have a bigger impact on reducing reoffending. Victims visit prisoners serving their sentences in a group presentation type of thing and tell their stories and then prisoners have an opportunity to show remorse and tell their story also. The victim can be a victim or member of the victims family and is not necessarily speaking to the perpetrator of their crime.

It takes some brave victims to do this and I think there is a shortage of those around, but it seems to work.

It doesn’t stop the initial offence being committed in the first place though!
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Some might think that wiring the criminal up and let the victim play with the volume knob might be more appropriate.
 
Signalcalc said:
Victim reparation schemes (not sure of the exact terminology) seem to have a bigger impact on reducing reoffending. Victims visit prisoners serving their sentences in a group presentation type of thing and tell their stories and then prisoners have an opportunity to show remorse and tell their story also. The victim can be a victim or member of the victims family and is not necessarily speaking to the perpetrator of their crime.

It takes some brave victims to do this and I think there is a shortage of those around, but it seems to work.

It doesn’t stop the initial offence being committed in the first place though!
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Sounds fine. But these people have to be caught and convicted first.
 
Signalcalc said:
Victim reparation schemes (not sure of the exact terminology) seem to have a bigger impact on reducing reoffending. Victims visit prisoners serving their sentences in a group presentation type of thing and tell their stories and then prisoners have an opportunity to show remorse and tell their story also. The victim can be a victim or member of the victims family and is not necessarily speaking to the perpetrator of their crime.

It takes some brave victims to do this and I think there is a shortage of those around, but it seems to work.

It doesn’t stop the initial offence being committed in the first place though!
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There's a lot to be said for that scheme and the reason it works (when it does work) is that it persuades the wrongdoer that his behaviour was wrong, has serious consequences for all concerned and that he now wants to change course. A lot of crime is associated with former kids from deprived backgrounds – no father figure, no one to set the boundaries, no good examples to look up to = no hope. If caught young enough these kids can respond to "hero" figures e.g. footballers/entertainers/sportsmen/anyone else in the public limelight. (Catholic Church learned to get 'em young a long time ago didn't it?) If these sort of people did more (and some of them already do) to influence these kids and give them some kind of hope then we might see significant changes for the benefit of everyone concerned.

A few people seem to be born evil and will never be any good but the great majority just need a decent upbringing and pointing in the right direction coupled with decent public examples. You would think that our glorious leaders in charge of the country could make a start there wouldn't you?
 
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sminicooper said:
There's a lot to be said for that scheme and the reason it works (when it does work) is that it persuades the wrongdoer that his behaviour was wrong, has serious consequences for all concerned and that he now wants to change course. A lot of crime is associated with former kids from deprived backgrounds – no father figure, no one to set the boundaries, no good examples to look up to = no hope. If caught young enough these kids can respond to "hero" figures e.g. footballers/entertainers/sportsmen/anyone else in the public limelight. (Catholic Church learned to get 'em young a long time ago didn't it?) If these sort of people did more (and some of them already do) to influence these kids and give them some kind of hope then we might see significant changes for the benefit of everyone concerned.

A few people seem to be born evil and will never be any good but the great majority just need a decent upbringing and pointing in the right direction coupled with decent public examples. You would think that our glorious leaders in charge of the country could make a start there wouldn't you?
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Surely you can see that the soppy approach of the last 50 years has encouraged habitual and professional criminals. They do a bit of time inside, meet the boys again, learn some new nasty tricks before they are let loose again on society.

The politicians just can't grab the nettle so keen they are on being loved. London particularly and the UK in general has a bad reputation for knife wielding street gangs. It costs the country millions in lost tourism revenues,
 
It was widely publicised at the time that in February and March, the murder rate in London exceeded New York's in the same period. That difference doesn't hold over the longer term of course but it was an indication of how far crime had run ahead of policing.

Moped / motorbike robbery in London especially is at a scandalous level.

Robbery and violent crime statistics in general in England and Wales are rising faster than in comparable countries in Europe etc. where in many cases these figures are actually falling.

We have fewer police officers than any time since the 80's. Hard not to see a connection.
 
They had a strange understanding in the 1960s, whereby gang bosses like the Krays wiped the minor criminals out of their area. For that they were allowed to frequent the best night spots like Annabels and live like Lords.
When the Krays fell from power there was a sudden increase in minor crimes in that neighbourhood, until the present woeful situation.
You judge it.
 
I see David Cameron wants to make a political comeback !
He did let the referendum c0ck-up happen on his watch but had some good points.
Maybe a spell on the back benches might qualify him to take over again.
 
Take a look at some insight at what our politicians are being officially spoonfed as fact, starts around 8 minutes. Only those with security clearances will get intelligence led summaries of what is happening in the world (and we all know that they can also be manipulated), the rest get this load of partisan garbage.

 
So the ultra-inclusive, ultra-PC, ultra-equal rights leader Corbyn is now accused of calling the PM a "stupid woman" whilst sat on the front bench in the commons during PMQs. You don't need to be a lip reading genius to see the evidence for yourselves.

Ooops, not so anti-sexit and inclusive now are we Mr. Corbyn, bring in the transgender brigade feminazis to sort this out, I say :LOL::LOL:
 
Signalcalc said:
So the ultra-inclusive, ultra-PC, ultra-equal rights leader Corbyn is now accused of calling the PM a "stupid woman" whilst sat on the front bench in the commons during PMQs. You don't need to be a lip reading genius to see the evidence for yourselves.

Ooops, not so anti-sexit and inclusive now are we Mr. Corbyn, bring in the transgender brigade feminazis to sort this out, I say :LOL::LOL:
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I can't see what the problem is with calling a stupid woman a "stupid woman". Corbyn for once has a firm grasp of the facts.
 
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