Pat494
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Glad to hear the other side of the story Peter.
Hope your hopes aren't dashed too soon.
Did you lose your job or something ?
Glad to hear the other side of the story Peter.
Hope your hopes aren't dashed too soon.
Did you lose your job or something ?
Pat494
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If you believe Trump will support the little guy, you must be living in Disney land
*
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Maybe people in the US will finally come to grips with reality.
There is no Superman, Batman, Hulk, American dream etc.
You may have let loose a monster.
Hope not - for all of us.
No escape over the Mexican wall guys. Maybe a Canadian wall is in the pipeline ?
OTOH I could be dreaming too !!
*
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Maybe people in the US will finally come to grips with reality.
There is no Superman, Batman, Hulk, American dream etc.
You may have let loose a monster.
Hope not - for all of us.
No escape over the Mexican wall guys. Maybe a Canadian wall is in the pipeline ?
OTOH I could be dreaming too !!
dbphoenix
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An interesting exchange:
deathkit: What is not so often mentioned is how, by pulling the plug on the Bretton Woods system, Nixon brought about the runaway economic liberalization of today. What we obtained is not globalization, but globalization as the only end.
Globalization was supposed to serve us; instead we became its slave. Capital, by being freed from all constraints, became like a kamikaze pilot destroying everything that gets in the way of capital markets. Wealth again became concentrated in the hands of the few. The more the wealthy, big business and corporations grew richer, the more they could rig the system in their favour. Tax was lowered. The working poor became victims of the debt trap because of uncontrolled predatory lending designed to do just that. Consumer protections were made lax; wages stagnated; jobs were outsourced to where there were cheaper workers and a dictator putting the jackboot in to get them to labour for that pittance (or else), which could be taken care of by having a set of international labour rules that curb such exploitation, but then there would be little point in manufacturing in such countries without the cheapness (which, when minimum wage and the welfare payment is removed by Trump, is where you will be; there you go no more outsourcing. Hello serfdom). The lack of capital controls meant that governments risked capital flight if they didn't do the bidding of the rich and slash unemployment benefits and cut benefits.
So, the Democrats are not villains like in a Victorian melodrama; there is some rhyme and reason to why they act the way they do. That doesn't mean they should have surrendered. What we need to ask ourselves is if unconstrained globalization is compatible with Democracy. No; it isn't. That means erecting a smarter economic global system. Who says it has to be a free market, Neoliberal system. Oh the exploiters say it should. Imagine that.
FreeQuark: The free flow of people and capital across national borders, which is a requirement of any globalized economics, is the very basis of neoliberalism. The left was therefore subverted and neutered the instant it bought into globalism.
All the "progressives" out there protesting Trump's travel ban are neoliberals whether they know it or not.
deathkit: If only it were as simple as simpletons would have us believe. Yes, on the one hand, one set of elites use the free flow of people across borders to drive down wages, and then, when the natives at home begin to grow restless use those same immigrants or guest workers as scapegoats as a way of deflecting the blame away from themselves. And on the other, another set of elites close the borders and stop the free flow of people so that people are held captive slaving for the one per cent, made easy by austerity measures that cut welfare and gut the social safety net so that the only alternative for people is to toil at home for chicken feed.
So, no, it's not progressives "protesting Trump's travel ban [who] are neoliberals"; or who are strengthening neoliberalism. For banning or not banning travel are two sides of the neoliberal coin. Billionaires reap the benefits in both cases. It's you being a dupe of such neoliberal propaganda that makes the class war they're waging on all of us successful. You're not more of a progressive than they are for opposing the free flow of people. You're just falling for a different kind of propaganda. Instead of fighting one another it would be nicer if we began fighting together against the plutocratic capitalist class (that's your enemy not that poor little kid from Aleppo).
deathkit: What is not so often mentioned is how, by pulling the plug on the Bretton Woods system, Nixon brought about the runaway economic liberalization of today. What we obtained is not globalization, but globalization as the only end.
Globalization was supposed to serve us; instead we became its slave. Capital, by being freed from all constraints, became like a kamikaze pilot destroying everything that gets in the way of capital markets. Wealth again became concentrated in the hands of the few. The more the wealthy, big business and corporations grew richer, the more they could rig the system in their favour. Tax was lowered. The working poor became victims of the debt trap because of uncontrolled predatory lending designed to do just that. Consumer protections were made lax; wages stagnated; jobs were outsourced to where there were cheaper workers and a dictator putting the jackboot in to get them to labour for that pittance (or else), which could be taken care of by having a set of international labour rules that curb such exploitation, but then there would be little point in manufacturing in such countries without the cheapness (which, when minimum wage and the welfare payment is removed by Trump, is where you will be; there you go no more outsourcing. Hello serfdom). The lack of capital controls meant that governments risked capital flight if they didn't do the bidding of the rich and slash unemployment benefits and cut benefits.
So, the Democrats are not villains like in a Victorian melodrama; there is some rhyme and reason to why they act the way they do. That doesn't mean they should have surrendered. What we need to ask ourselves is if unconstrained globalization is compatible with Democracy. No; it isn't. That means erecting a smarter economic global system. Who says it has to be a free market, Neoliberal system. Oh the exploiters say it should. Imagine that.
FreeQuark: The free flow of people and capital across national borders, which is a requirement of any globalized economics, is the very basis of neoliberalism. The left was therefore subverted and neutered the instant it bought into globalism.
All the "progressives" out there protesting Trump's travel ban are neoliberals whether they know it or not.
deathkit: If only it were as simple as simpletons would have us believe. Yes, on the one hand, one set of elites use the free flow of people across borders to drive down wages, and then, when the natives at home begin to grow restless use those same immigrants or guest workers as scapegoats as a way of deflecting the blame away from themselves. And on the other, another set of elites close the borders and stop the free flow of people so that people are held captive slaving for the one per cent, made easy by austerity measures that cut welfare and gut the social safety net so that the only alternative for people is to toil at home for chicken feed.
So, no, it's not progressives "protesting Trump's travel ban [who] are neoliberals"; or who are strengthening neoliberalism. For banning or not banning travel are two sides of the neoliberal coin. Billionaires reap the benefits in both cases. It's you being a dupe of such neoliberal propaganda that makes the class war they're waging on all of us successful. You're not more of a progressive than they are for opposing the free flow of people. You're just falling for a different kind of propaganda. Instead of fighting one another it would be nicer if we began fighting together against the plutocratic capitalist class (that's your enemy not that poor little kid from Aleppo).
Pat494
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There are 2 basic types of people in this world of ours.
1. Those that only selfishly care about themselves.
2. Those that care about themselves and others.
Then there is the human element.
1. Those that lie to obtain their ends - usually money.
2. Those that have some regard for the truth.
I know which I would rather be in power.
1. Those that only selfishly care about themselves.
2. Those that care about themselves and others.
Then there is the human element.
1. Those that lie to obtain their ends - usually money.
2. Those that have some regard for the truth.
I know which I would rather be in power.
Atilla
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Quick observation. If 6 American billionaires own half the world's riches, then globalisation has ultimately benefited the US big corporations. This is an undeniable fact.
In exchange, people have wonderful gadgets to occupy their minds and cheap GM infested dangerous foods causing health issues.
To continue enriching these mega global corporations, Government and banks have printed more money, so people can borrow to buy sh1t they don't need. Allowing US mega corporations to make and keep more money.
Giving away tax cuts will achieve nothing but compound US debt problem and screw the ninja guy who'll see no benefit.
Crazy, if you don't see what's happening here...
In exchange, people have wonderful gadgets to occupy their minds and cheap GM infested dangerous foods causing health issues.
To continue enriching these mega global corporations, Government and banks have printed more money, so people can borrow to buy sh1t they don't need. Allowing US mega corporations to make and keep more money.
Giving away tax cuts will achieve nothing but compound US debt problem and screw the ninja guy who'll see no benefit.
Crazy, if you don't see what's happening here...
counter_violent
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Yes we all know the problem.
The solution I proposed was for everyone to get busy operating, owning and working in their community cooperatives.
It probably won't happen though will it. Sounds like work...no handouts and of course, no guaranteed wages. Stand and fall by your own actions.
But you will be free to determine your own path !
If you don't like the system, circumvent it.
The solution I proposed was for everyone to get busy operating, owning and working in their community cooperatives.
It probably won't happen though will it. Sounds like work...no handouts and of course, no guaranteed wages. Stand and fall by your own actions.
But you will be free to determine your own path !
If you don't like the system, circumvent it.
joseph1986
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Attachments
Pat494
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Sounds a bit like the old monastic system except with married couples and no prayers ?
dbphoenix
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Inflaming a crowd: a modern Ox Bow Incident
It’s been hard for me to face the whole story explaining why my fellow Oklahomans have embraced Trumpism in general and, too often, his Secretary of Education appointee Betsy DeVos in particular. Even though my conservative state has an extreme record of corruption, we also had an ethic where a politician’s hand shake had to be good; an individual’s word had to be true. We believed, “my opponent is my opponent, not my enemy.” In the contact sport of politics, elbows would be thrown, but you don’t take out your opponent’s knee.
Growing up in Oklahoma, I also learned something that I’m less proud of. Although I’ve committed my life to working within the system to make things better for the poorest children of color in Oklahoma City, there is another aspect of my upbringing. If a school reformer looked me in the eye and said what many do in their writing - that I’m a racist because I try to work inside the education status quo - I’d likely ask him to step outside.
Or I would have acted according to our code before Trump was elected. Now the stakes are too high to let personal emotion reign.
For the first time in my life, I’m afraid. And the DeVos-subsidized Oklahoma Choice Summit has made me more fearful.
Even though I had registered in advance, there had been a minor protest against the summit’s agenda, and it took some Old School schmoozing to talk my way into the auditorium to see Dr. Steve Perry’s keynote address. Perry is the author of “Push Has Come to Shove: Getting Our Kids the Education They Deserve – Even If It Means Picking a Fight.” I sat down next to an old friend who supports charter and voucher expansion and we shook hands. I then listened, horrified, as Perry shouted insults, non-stop, during his entire presentation. Of course, I’ve seen videos of demagogues firing people up. As a kid too young to understand, I’d witnessed John Birch Society and George Wallace rallies. But, as an adult, I’d never seen anything as frightening as the way Perry worked the crowd.
To be honest, I’d come to listen to fellow audience members more than to a former charter school principal turned showman. I doubted that many in the crowd knew that Perry, the founder of Capital Preparatory Magnet School, is remembered for calling teachers unions “roaches,” for 49 tweets calling education historian Diane Ravitch a racist, and for controversial financial arrangements. Worse, his school would sentence “even the youngest students in the building, to sit at the cafeteria’s ‘Table of Shame.’”
Even worse, Perry had written that people should:
Perry told the audience that charter supporters shouldn’t even talk with people who disagree with them. He said virtually nothing about real-world schools. Instead, Perry shouted memes that often were incomprehensible. He kept likening charters to the “red pill” in The Matrix, calling for an all-out assault on public schools full of deluded people who had swallowed the “blue pill.”
Perry said that that public school supporters “designed” schools to fail – to maintain Jim Crow and drive the school to prison pipeline. Even worse, Perry said that opponents of Oklahoma City’s KIPP expansion are racists. He said that people (like me) who have Obama bumper stickers but oppose charter and voucher expansions are as bad as the worst racists in American history.
Worst of all, the mostly white audience loved it. They loudly cheered Perry’s union-bashing and clearly enjoyed being characterized as civil rights crusaders attacking Obama-lovers whose real goal is defending an education system which was supposedly designed to perpetuate Jim Crow.
I was then dragged kicking and screaming into admitting that the crowd wouldn’t have been so open to the claim that we who disagree with them are evil if they weren’t hungry for that message. For reasons that have to be bigger than education reform, many of them must have already been ready for battle, and they craved the reassurance that they are righteous crusaders and their enemies deserve to be destroyed.
Afterwards, I asked the charter leaders who I know to distance themselves from Perry’s disgraceful rhetoric. I explained that the former charter principal hadn’t faced anything comparable to what we do in neighborhood schools. Five times I had had heart-to-heart talks with kids who were dead before morning. I lost track of the number of my kids who died prematurely or killed someone as the count passed fifty. I can’t try to recall the number of my hospital visits or my students’ funerals, or the number of times I had been covered with my students’ blood or cradled unconscious kids, sometimes without knowing if they were breathing. (I’d also learned that it could be easier to negotiate with gang-bangers [who often were armed] than true believers in competition-driven reform.)
Am I a racist because I don’t agree with Dr. Steve Perry?
I was offered an opportunity to confront Perry but I turned it down. I was afraid, but not of the possibility that my Oklahoma upbringing would reassert itself. I’m terrified that we are moving into a new era – one that is fundamentally worse than the scorched-earth politics embraced by corporate school reformers. I fear that Perry understands something about my community that I haven’t dared to confront. Demagogues like him don’t prosper without audiences who are ready for the extremist politics of destruction and the demonization of their neighbors.
It’s been hard for me to face the whole story explaining why my fellow Oklahomans have embraced Trumpism in general and, too often, his Secretary of Education appointee Betsy DeVos in particular. Even though my conservative state has an extreme record of corruption, we also had an ethic where a politician’s hand shake had to be good; an individual’s word had to be true. We believed, “my opponent is my opponent, not my enemy.” In the contact sport of politics, elbows would be thrown, but you don’t take out your opponent’s knee.
Growing up in Oklahoma, I also learned something that I’m less proud of. Although I’ve committed my life to working within the system to make things better for the poorest children of color in Oklahoma City, there is another aspect of my upbringing. If a school reformer looked me in the eye and said what many do in their writing - that I’m a racist because I try to work inside the education status quo - I’d likely ask him to step outside.
Or I would have acted according to our code before Trump was elected. Now the stakes are too high to let personal emotion reign.
For the first time in my life, I’m afraid. And the DeVos-subsidized Oklahoma Choice Summit has made me more fearful.
Even though I had registered in advance, there had been a minor protest against the summit’s agenda, and it took some Old School schmoozing to talk my way into the auditorium to see Dr. Steve Perry’s keynote address. Perry is the author of “Push Has Come to Shove: Getting Our Kids the Education They Deserve – Even If It Means Picking a Fight.” I sat down next to an old friend who supports charter and voucher expansion and we shook hands. I then listened, horrified, as Perry shouted insults, non-stop, during his entire presentation. Of course, I’ve seen videos of demagogues firing people up. As a kid too young to understand, I’d witnessed John Birch Society and George Wallace rallies. But, as an adult, I’d never seen anything as frightening as the way Perry worked the crowd.
To be honest, I’d come to listen to fellow audience members more than to a former charter school principal turned showman. I doubted that many in the crowd knew that Perry, the founder of Capital Preparatory Magnet School, is remembered for calling teachers unions “roaches,” for 49 tweets calling education historian Diane Ravitch a racist, and for controversial financial arrangements. Worse, his school would sentence “even the youngest students in the building, to sit at the cafeteria’s ‘Table of Shame.’”
Even worse, Perry had written that people should:
Drag sorry principals and teachers out into the street. Kick open the doors in our communities and collar lazy parents. Line ‘em all up on Main Street, snatch their pants down and show the entire world the ass that they have given our kids to kiss.”
Perry told the audience that charter supporters shouldn’t even talk with people who disagree with them. He said virtually nothing about real-world schools. Instead, Perry shouted memes that often were incomprehensible. He kept likening charters to the “red pill” in The Matrix, calling for an all-out assault on public schools full of deluded people who had swallowed the “blue pill.”
Perry said that that public school supporters “designed” schools to fail – to maintain Jim Crow and drive the school to prison pipeline. Even worse, Perry said that opponents of Oklahoma City’s KIPP expansion are racists. He said that people (like me) who have Obama bumper stickers but oppose charter and voucher expansions are as bad as the worst racists in American history.
Worst of all, the mostly white audience loved it. They loudly cheered Perry’s union-bashing and clearly enjoyed being characterized as civil rights crusaders attacking Obama-lovers whose real goal is defending an education system which was supposedly designed to perpetuate Jim Crow.
I was then dragged kicking and screaming into admitting that the crowd wouldn’t have been so open to the claim that we who disagree with them are evil if they weren’t hungry for that message. For reasons that have to be bigger than education reform, many of them must have already been ready for battle, and they craved the reassurance that they are righteous crusaders and their enemies deserve to be destroyed.
Afterwards, I asked the charter leaders who I know to distance themselves from Perry’s disgraceful rhetoric. I explained that the former charter principal hadn’t faced anything comparable to what we do in neighborhood schools. Five times I had had heart-to-heart talks with kids who were dead before morning. I lost track of the number of my kids who died prematurely or killed someone as the count passed fifty. I can’t try to recall the number of my hospital visits or my students’ funerals, or the number of times I had been covered with my students’ blood or cradled unconscious kids, sometimes without knowing if they were breathing. (I’d also learned that it could be easier to negotiate with gang-bangers [who often were armed] than true believers in competition-driven reform.)
Am I a racist because I don’t agree with Dr. Steve Perry?
I was offered an opportunity to confront Perry but I turned it down. I was afraid, but not of the possibility that my Oklahoma upbringing would reassert itself. I’m terrified that we are moving into a new era – one that is fundamentally worse than the scorched-earth politics embraced by corporate school reformers. I fear that Perry understands something about my community that I haven’t dared to confront. Demagogues like him don’t prosper without audiences who are ready for the extremist politics of destruction and the demonization of their neighbors.
Atilla
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I think Trump is living in alternative reality with some very alternative facts.
Read this if you would like a good hearty chuckle :innocent::innocent::innocent:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...travel-ban-success-protests-article-1.2964842
President Trump hails travel ban as a success despite protests, airport chaos; ‘I think it was smooth'
Trump also said that despite his vow to build a wall between their countries — and make them pay for it — he has “a very good relationship” with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto.
The ex Mexican PM tells him to Naff Off and current PM declines visit. A neighbour who you do a lot of business with. Trump thinks that's a good relationship.
:-0
Cuts the Australian President off short on a phone conversation and then tweets about it. Yep I know. He has a great working relationship with him too.
At least his learning to do as his told. About time he shut up.
Trump also railed against the nuclear arms deal the Obama administration negotiated with Iran, but said he would not discuss the America’s military options.
Read this if you would like a good hearty chuckle :innocent::innocent::innocent:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...travel-ban-success-protests-article-1.2964842
President Trump hails travel ban as a success despite protests, airport chaos; ‘I think it was smooth'
Trump also said that despite his vow to build a wall between their countries — and make them pay for it — he has “a very good relationship” with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto.
The ex Mexican PM tells him to Naff Off and current PM declines visit. A neighbour who you do a lot of business with. Trump thinks that's a good relationship.
:-0Cuts the Australian President off short on a phone conversation and then tweets about it.
Yep I know. He has a great working relationship with him too. At least his learning to do as his told. About time he shut up.
Trump also railed against the nuclear arms deal the Obama administration negotiated with Iran, but said he would not discuss the America’s military options.
dbphoenix
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VoteVets.org, a group that focuses on “matters including, but not limited to, foreign policy, energy security, veterans’ unemployment, and opening military service to life-long Americans born to undocumented immigrants, as well as continued investment in care for veterans,” released an ad on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” on Monday that calls out President Donald Trump by name.
The 30-second spot shows a veteran lifting weights while the camera slowly pans back to reveal that he only has one leg. After denouncing Trump’s positions on repealing the Affordable Care Act, which could hurt veterans, as well as his ban on Muslim immigration, the ad closes by calling out Trump on one of his biggest fears.
“You want to be a legitimate president, sir?” the narrator challenges. “Then act like one.” (more)
The 30-second spot shows a veteran lifting weights while the camera slowly pans back to reveal that he only has one leg. After denouncing Trump’s positions on repealing the Affordable Care Act, which could hurt veterans, as well as his ban on Muslim immigration, the ad closes by calling out Trump on one of his biggest fears.
“You want to be a legitimate president, sir?” the narrator challenges. “Then act like one.” (more)
wackypete2
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what is votevets.org?
Although a nonpartisan organization, it has been described as "closely aligned with Congressional Democrats," and "liberal" in news stories. In a June 2011 press release, the organization specifically identified itself as the "largest progressive group of veterans in America."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoteVets.org
So, naturally they don't like Trump.
Peter
Although a nonpartisan organization, it has been described as "closely aligned with Congressional Democrats," and "liberal" in news stories. In a June 2011 press release, the organization specifically identified itself as the "largest progressive group of veterans in America."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoteVets.org
So, naturally they don't like Trump.
Peter
wackypete2
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You mean like the democratic candidate??
Pat494
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Fortunately being a UK citizen I didn't get to have a vote. Who is President does mean serious things to some outside of the US.
Democracy is fragile and in my humble view worth protecting. Hopefully DT won't make a grab for unilateral power but he sure seems to be on that path. Although probably not able enough to take sole control.
dbphoenix
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Not only President of the United States but President of France. I hope Brits aren't so caught up in Brexit that they're ignoring what's going on with LePen.
Pat494
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The rise of nationalist socialist popularity is imho a worry whether it is in France or elsewhere. Obviously WWII didn't settle that issue. You would think France having been occupied would shy away from the extreme Right.
dbphoenix
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I've wondered about that for several years. Even though it was 70 years ago, you'd think the memories of being occupied for 5 years would still be there. But then there's Austria. And Denmark. And Italy.
Though economic conditions are not nearly as severe as they were in the 30s, there is much similarity, and just as economic conditions in the 30s allowed the rise of fake populism, so the economic conditions now are allowing a similar rise.
If the economies in the West were bustling, would people care one way or another about immigrants? I doubt it.
Pat494
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The expected large rise in unemployment from AI and 3rd world competition will add to the popular discontent. Yes it is worrying. I didn't consider myself in the doom and gloom lobby but..........
dbphoenix
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Unfortunately the popular discontent is directed toward the wrong target. It's the oligarchs who are responsible, not immigrants. And the US at least is determined to recreate the same conditions that brought about the '08 recession.
Pat494
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Partly true I would say as the immigrants need jobs and are willing usually to take the lower paid jobs, initially. Lots of people trying for the shortage of average semi skilled jobs creates resentment. The bosses cash in on cheap labour.
3rd world labour needs to organise to get the basic wages and conditions up. Europe had the rich robber baron industrialists in the 19th century but gradually curtailed their power politically so that the less gifted could survive.
The idea of paying people not to work may become a necessity.
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