Tottenham Riots

[jthetrader]

Yes a soft touch and a land of plenty compared to home. And a pretty dysfunctional childhood, you know forced into gang rape,(male and female) that sort of thing.

What do you want me to say? It is terrible what happens to these kids.

 

[Jason101]

Someone has to clean up the mess we gonna make and I'd rather it be some **** who mugs people than a decent person.

[I smell a social worker/Labour voter]

Wrong.



I smell someone who has lead a narrow and perhaps sheltered life.

 

[jthetrader]

Wrong.



I smell someone who has lead a narrow and perhaps sheltered life.

You've got a good nose.

 

[jthetrader]

Wrong.


.

What's wrong, you aren't a Labour/social worker type or these kids are not genetic filth in many cases?

 

[counter_violent]

Enfield Distribution centre.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14452772

 

[Dommo]

Google "dutch approach to drugs" and you'll get tons of links. Here is one of the top ones.

http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/reinarman.dutch.html

Google "dutch approach to drugs" and you'll get tons of links. Here is one of the top ones.

http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/reinarman.dutch.html

Allright, so respectfully, we have no idea of the present cost and £50m is probably not in the ballpark. However, whatever the cost, it might be worth it.

Perhaps recognisable pariah status would reduce the attraction for newcomers/youngsters. Say, house arrest, by consent/contract, with loss of govt rights (eg NHS entitlements). If you are addicted and get sick, you have to pay."

"Why would you want to do this? Alchol abuse is more of a social problem which is tolerated. Also most people not interested in hard drugs. Most drug users and teenagers are very savy about drugs. "

The principle of personal responsibility. Alcohol and tobacco are also very problematic, for different reasons. Tobacco itself doesn't tend to create criminals, surely. Alcohol does, but only under the influence, so prosecute crimes committed under the influence, and make pariahs accordingly, with similar penalties.

Most drug users are savvy about drugs? Sure, but I'm not sure of your point. Is the drug-driven criminal savvy about the consequences to others? Same goes for the booze binger or a parent who smokes in the home.

I'm all for personal responsibility and personal freedom and freedom of thought - but if a person does things that will obviously affect others, he/she ought to take responsibility for adverse consequences.

But, respect.

 

[counter_violent]

I wonder if Europe should fine the UK for contributing to pollution and global warming these last few days.

 

[Atilla]

I wonder if Europe should fine the UK for contributing to pollution and global warming these last few days.

Shouldn't this be in the funny jokes sections...

To look on the bright side of life - all this destruction may just get us out of this recession.

When I learnt about creative destruction - however, I don't think this was what I was led to believe.

Buy Pilkington's I'd guess :smart:

 

[DionysusToast]

It comes down to consent in my view, a court will take a dim view of anyone who tries to claim a child consented to being a prostitute; on the other hand, a 20 year old or a 30 year old? Either way it should be a matter, initially, for the civil courts. No crime of being a prostitute.

There are more strawmen in your posts than all the repeats of Wizard of Oz.

Let's go back to the "Crack dealing pimps" you have no issue with. A pimp has no purpose. A girl can put herself on the street and transact with a passing punter without the assistance of a pimp. I agree that if prossy and punter interact, it is no-one's business but there's.

A pimp serves no purpose. A pimp is merely a leech on a prostitute. Why would a prostitute put up with giving a large percentage of her $$$ to a pimp?

When you answer yourself that question. You will also know why these pimps are scum.

Escobar was a legend.Probably a psychopath as well, but a legend nonetheless. He waged a war, I don't think his actions were any worse than what the US or Britain has done around the world.

Escobar was scum. Bob Marley was a legend. By your measure, was Pol Pot also a legend?

I agree with you on the user side of drugs BUT you live in a utopian world where you have ignored all the pain and suffering on the production side of drugs. Escobars war was about saving his ass. Period. He put bombs in public places to save his ass. The man was pure scum.


Now - I'm going to hazard a guess here. I bet you think Che Guevara was a hero too, right? Just feeling you our here....

I'm not trolling. And since opium isn't heroin until it is processed, in Turkey, it would be fair to say that heroin comes from there, no?

Just because I'm not a statist means I must be trolling in your view?

No - your strawmen arguments make me think you are a troll. I said that buying heroin is helping to fund the Taliban. Your argument against that is that Heroin gets processed in Turkey. That's a bit like saying Eggs come from Sainsburys & not chickens. Apart from being wrong (heroin does get processed in Afghanistan). The argument is a strawman and nothing to do with the point that drugs fund terrorism.

Fact is - most drug users would prefer to not consider this. Now - if Tesco started stocking "Taliban Easter Eggs", then I am guess most people would avoid them. With drugs though - people are a tad more selfish.

No, I hate benefits, government run healthcare, gun restrictions, drug prohibition, laws against self-defence, anti-death penalty c*** If I were American I'd be a Ron Paul Republican, or a Libertarian Party supporter.

We just disagree that drug users are victims of anything but their own stupidity.

Nope. What we disagree on is this:

The people in London rioting are scum.
The guy that got shot is scum.
All those black Yardie wannabe gangsters in London are scum.

Fact is - you think a drug dealing pimp is just a guy making a living. You think that the fact he carries a gun MUST be because the poor chap is scared. FACT is he's probably carrying a gun to intimidate others.

I am not a defender of the weak, I'm, in my view, a defender of what is right. And anyway I ain't defending much, just putting my opinions across on an internet forum (doesn't take much courage).

No - you are a defender of scum.
You'd rather junkies get a fix than cut off money to terrorists.
You think crack dealers should be allowed to carry guns to protect themselves from other crack dealers.
You think that Escobar is some sort of hero with no thought of all the men, women and children he killed.
You think that pimps are providing a service.

My guess is you are no sharing your actual views. If you are, then it seems you look at issues from a single angle and don't consider repercussions.

 

[jthetrader]

There are more strawmen in your posts than all the repeats of Wizard of Oz.

Are you capable of having a discussion with someone who disagrees with you without being insulting?

Let's go back to the "Crack dealing pimps" you have no issue with. A pimp has no purpose. A girl can put herself on the street and transact with a passing punter without the assistance of a pimp. I agree that if prossy and punter interact, it is no-one's business but there's.

A pimp serves no purpose. A pimp is merely a leech on a prostitute. Why would a prostitute put up with giving a large percentage of her $$$ to a pimp?

He protects her, the same reason shops have security guards. The people who use prostitutes tend to be lowlife types. Alternatively she owes the pimp a debt incurred by her drug use and she is repaying it through services.

When you answer yourself that question. You will also know why these pimps are scum.



Escobar was scum. Bob Marley was a legend. By your measure, was Pol Pot also a legend?

Bob Marley was nothing special, I like some of his music but beyond that I don't care for him.

I agree with you on the user side of drugs BUT you live in a utopian world where you have ignored all the pain and suffering on the production side of drugs. Escobars war was about saving his ass. Period. He put bombs in public places to save his ass. The man was pure scum.

And the US gov't has never bombed anyone, or killed any civilians to save their ass?

Now - I'm going to hazard a guess here. I bet you think Che Guevara was a hero too, right? Just feeling you our here....

Wrong. I explained my political beliefs to you before, I don't like socialists, communists, Zionists, fascists, extreme statists etc I dislike Che Guervara, I couldn't care less that he was killed and whenever I see his stupid face on a mug or a T-shirt it is a big 'Steer clear' sign to me.

No - your strawmen arguments make me think you are a troll. I said that buying heroin is helping to fund the Taliban. Your argument against that is that Heroin gets processed in Turkey. That's a bit like saying Eggs come from Sainsburys & not chickens. Apart from being wrong (heroin does get processed in Afghanistan). The argument is a strawman and nothing to do with the point that drugs fund terrorism.

I was being a bit flippant in that instance, due to my own poor knowledge of the heroin market compared to yours.

Terrorism is a relative term. Use as you please. It is a bit like fascist.

Fact is - most drug users would prefer to not consider this. Now - if Tesco started stocking "Taliban Easter Eggs", then I am guess most people would avoid them. With drugs though - people are a tad more selfish.

Indeed they are, so why don't you inform your local junkies of the damage they are doing to the world? I'm not buying, selling or transporting heroin so I'm out of that loop entirely.

Nope. What we disagree on is this:

Or do we?

The people in London rioting are scum.

Yes they are

The guy that got shot is scum.

Perhaps he is, but that doesn't mean his reason for carrying a gun was unreasonable.

All those black Yardie wannabe gangsters in London are scum.

Yes they are.

Fact is - you think a drug dealing pimp is just a guy making a living. You think that the fact he carries a gun MUST be because the poor chap is scared. FACT is he's probably carrying a gun to intimidate others.

A bit of both, a bit of intimidation goes a long way to avoiding a fight. I don't think most drug dealers want to shoot someone; most of them have their DNA on the police database due to their litany of previous convictions and 10 years in prison means 10 years you can't earn money. So they carry the gun to ward off robbers, it isn't like they can go to the police is it?

No - you are a defender of scum.
You'd rather junkies get a fix than cut off money to terrorists.

No I wouldnt, you are using all of these words like terrorist and scum, they are complete value judgements. I don't think drug dealers are good people, they prey on the weak but they are not all murderers or thieves. I prefer a drug dealer to a burglar, put it that way. Drug dealers don't bother me and I don't bother them, burglars are the reason decent people have to lock themselves up in their homes like prisoners every night.

You think crack dealers should be allowed to carry guns to protect themselves from other crack dealers.

Well to protect themselves from [probably armed] robbers, but I'm sure many crack dealers dabble in robbery so we may end up talking about the same people.

You think that Escobar is some sort of hero with no thought of all the men, women and children he killed.

How would you know how much thought I've given something? I said Escobar is a legend but also that he was probably a psychopath; he was a legend, he was a multi-billionaire, a larger than life character. Yes, he did some disgusting things to cement his position as a powerful cartel boss and I wouldn't want anything to do with him if he were alive (nor would he with me, but that isn't the point). You can admire one aspect of someone, and say, "Wow, he did something amazing" without turning him into your God. Hitler falls into the same category for me, I admire his oratory skills but not his views.

Do you give a thought to all those Iraqis the Coalition forces have killed. One thing is for sure, notwithstanding your beliefs or my beliefs about the moral worth of Escobar compared to the Coalition leaders, the armies of Britain and America have killed a lot more people, men women and children, than Pablo Escobar.

You think that pimps are providing a service.

They provide several services.

My guess is you are no sharing your actual views. If you are, then it seems you look at issues from a single angle and don't consider repercussions.

I do consider repercussions, I just don't see the point trying to plan for them all.

 

[DionysusToast]

Tell you what Jthetrader. You really do need to learn a couple of things:

1 - What a 'strawman' argument is and why that isn't an insult.
2 - The reason that Pablo Escobar was bombing shopping centres - which was NOT to cement his position as a cartel boss. Go figure.
3 - The fact that pimps sell protection to prostitutes and the person who they are then protected against is the pimp themself. There is no protection from the punters.
4 - Why the US govt or amyone else bombing someone does not make it right for another person. See strawman argument, point 1.
5 - Why stuff about Iraq is irrelevant. See point 1.

Now - you argue that a drug dealing yardie scumbag needs a gun to protect himself from other crack dealers. This is not true. The drug dealing yardie scumbag will get the same protection if he stops dealing and gets a job in McDonalds. Still, that wouldn't be 'fair' would it?

As for you preferring a drug dealer to a burglar. I sincerely doubt you've come across the types of drug dealers in question. Perhaps the guy selling you weed and LSD in University but not some gun toting, woman beating, tweaked out Yardie from Brixton.

Methinks you'd have a change of mind if you came across one.

 

[Splitlink]

I don't think that it matters much whether we like anyone, or not, under these circumstsnces, the reality is there, on the streets, telling us that there is something badly wrong. We thought that these things only happened in Athens and Paria. Well, we were wrong.

As far as scum is concerned, I'm afraid that the scum is what comes to the surface and tells us that the water is dirty. Without it, millions of people, all over the world , simply keep on taking the **** while the 5% own 95% of what there is.

Things are badly wrong in the West and have been for ever. At least, in my time. Does democracy work? It works for some. I think Churchill said "It's the best that we have".

The liberal democrats were not given enough votes by the people. They were the best chance of change for decades and we let it pass. Now they are in a minority and damned if they do and damned if they don't. They, themselves, should never have got into bed with anyone, but have stayed independent. At least, they'd have kept their self respect.

 

[Hotch]

Oh leave off Split, this isn't anything to do with the economy, the politics or anything, it's just a load of ****s being ****s.

 

[bbmac]

It is Thatcher's children's children doing the rioting/looting/thuggery. Whilst no-one can condone it, the underlying causes are clear to see. Thatcher's children grew up being told that ther was ..'no such thing as society...' and that individual greed counted more than collective responsibility...and now their children facing the prospect of declining living standards, no jobs, failed by the eductaion system, littyle chance of decent housing/being able to affors their own home,whilst watching the rich get richer as the underclass gets left further behind - let their anger/resentment bubbling just below the surface burst out.

The kids on the street last night have nothing to fear, no respect and given their potential future they have nothing to lose. The police are powerless as are other instruments of state neutered by the ever growing call for human rights but no counter balancing responsibilities in return for those rights.

We will get the usual equivocations and platitudes from politicians but no 'real action' and structural reform to tackle underlying and growing soicial inequalities.

First off though, Cameron should say that tonight we will take control of our streets and that he has given permission to police to beat within an inch of their lives anyone caught causing trouble on the streets and let slip the dogs of war upon them and the full distaste of the silent majority...once we have regained control then we should think seriously about the issues detailed above and act accordingly in future policy.

I suspect though that he'll revert to the '..hang em and flog em' tory type and do little.

Shame because in situations like this there exists an opportnity for it to be the catalyst of real social change.

Is it me or does the world feel like it's going to 'hell in a handcart' at the moment ?

 

[Hotch]

Personally I think the fault is with people being told they're entitled to a tonne of crap that they're not.

IMO you should get healthcare, sustenance, and shelter (includes Police & military etc), everything else you've got to work for.

Hell, we had labour buying books for "poor children" and then wondering why nobody was going to the library.

I don't think taxing the rich to buy plasmas for the looters is going to solve anything, they're just going to start looting porches instead.

 

[Splitlink]

Oh leave off Split, this isn't anything to do with the economy, the politics or anything, it's just a load of ****s being ****s.

That's a very simplistic way of putting it but it is the effect, not the cause of the problem.

 

[DionysusToast]

I agree with Hotch.

I see raving liberals on this thread blaming EVERYTHING but the little w@nkers doing the rioting.

THAT is what is wrong with the UK, my friends. That is what is wrong with most of Europe.

A bunch of w@nkers doing stuff they shouldn't and a bunch of liberal w@nkers making up excuses for them.

Bring in the army. Shoot the thieving little turds.

 

[pboyles]

I agree with Hotch.

I see raving liberals on this thread blaming EVERYTHING but the little w@nkers doing the rioting.

THAT is what is wrong with the UK, my friends. That is what is wrong with most of Europe.

A bunch of w@nkers doing stuff they shouldn't and a bunch of liberal w@nkers making up excuses for them.

Bring in the army. Shoot the thieving little turds.

The plastic baton round is the answer, believe me. The police have them but wont use them. Several innocent people will have to be killed before they are used. Until that happens it will go on as long as the rioters want it to.

 

[0007]

Hotch & DT are right. Human Rights culture is now completely out of sensibility while responsibility doesn't feature. Yup! the liberal elements are crawling out of the woodwork with all the cr@ap about it not being the rioters fault and it's all down to a lack of a future and the cuts (they ain't felt nothin' yet) etc . That may be true in some cases but a lot of this thuggish criminal element doesn't look like the underclasses to me with their Blackberrys etc.

No doubt Cameron will have another investigation and promise firm action ..... [email protected]@p..cr@p etc and maybe a bit of Hoodie-hugging so as to reassure them. When conditions were far worse in the 1930s and the working classes really did know what poverty, unemployment and no health care and no future was about, they marched peacefully asking for help (and still got stuffed) but at least had the reason to understand that smashing the place up isn't a solution.

We've now got ourselves into a mess from which it will be a difficult to recover. The smart (as always) will do ok and the rest ......... God knows!

 

[Atilla]

There are more strawmen in your posts than all the repeats of Wizard of Oz.

Let's go back to the "Crack dealing pimps" you have no issue with. A pimp has no purpose. A girl can put herself on the street and transact with a passing punter without the assistance of a pimp. I agree that if prossy and punter interact, it is no-one's business but there's.

A pimp serves no purpose. A pimp is merely a leech on a prostitute. Why would a prostitute put up with giving a large percentage of her $$$ to a pimp?

When you answer yourself that question. You will also know why these pimps are scum.

Pimp must have a purpose otherwise it couldn't exist. They promote and protect their client.

There are - as in all walks of life, good pimps and bad.

How would the prostitute reply to your question?

Let's consider an agent to a super star or up and coming musician. I'm sure the law courts have been used many a times to fight for proceeds for services rendered. Didn't George Michael get well screwed over by Sony...

There are many parallels but you are very high up on your horse to see similarities.


Escobar was scum. Bob Marley was a legend. By your measure, was Pol Pot also a legend?

I saw the film scum - it was well kewl. Bob Marley was a legend too.

Escobar was no different to CIA operations backing every military junta that favoured it's multinational corporations and inflicted pain, suffering and torture to literally the whole continent for about 50 years.

Can you not see the comparison in the pursuit of self interest?

I agree with you on the user side of drugs BUT you live in a utopian world where you have ignored all the pain and suffering on the production side of drugs. Escobars war was about saving his ass. Period. He put bombs in public places to save his ass. The man was pure scum.

How comes superstars and celebrities don't suffer the same level of pain using drugs and hookers. Jack Nicholson is / was one of the biggest players and Hollywood loves him. Hugh Grant was a bit of a player too if I recall. I still see him on TV quite frequently.

Now - I'm going to hazard a guess here. I bet you think Che Guevara was a hero too, right? Just feeling you our here....

Che was not scum - he was a great hero but Castro being more politically savy sent him on a mission he could not return from leaving Cuba to his good self. I like Castro too really. Have no idea what US gripe is about?


No - your strawmen arguments make me think you are a troll. I said that buying heroin is helping to fund the Taliban. Your argument against that is that Heroin gets processed in Turkey. That's a bit like saying Eggs come from Sainsburys & not chickens. Apart from being wrong (heroin does get processed in Afghanistan). The argument is a strawman and nothing to do with the point that drugs fund terrorism.

Fact is - most drug users would prefer to not consider this. Now - if Tesco started stocking "Taliban Easter Eggs", then I am guess most people would avoid them. With drugs though - people are a tad more selfish.





Nope. What we disagree on is this:

The people in London rioting are scum. Get real mate - they are opportunists. Little people with not much hope. Bankers, politicians & Bush and Blair are real scum. It's only a matter of degree.
The guy that got shot is scum. You don't know that as IPC yet to make any announcement.
All those black Yardie wannabe gangsters in London are scum. Any body living off the misery of other people are scum too.

Fact is - you think a drug dealing pimp is just a guy making a living. You think that the fact he carries a gun MUST be because the poor chap is scared. FACT is he's probably carrying a gun to intimidate others. Probably both. Yep agreed on all fronts.



No - you are a defender of scum. You are being narrow minded here.
You'd rather junkies get a fix than cut off money to terrorists.Get real. The intelligence agents operate the drug cartels. It's how they get their contacts. Heard of Raegan and Colonel North???
You think crack dealers should be allowed to carry guns to protect themselves from other crack dealers. Ofcourse it's always been done this way and always will continue to be dog eat dog world.
You think that Escobar is some sort of hero with no thought of all the men, women and children he killed. I'm sure it wasn't personal but just business. A bit like US and Cuba relationship. Why does US continue its policy of victimising Cuba?
You think that pimps are providing a service.

My guess is you are no sharing your actual views. If you are, then it seems you look at issues from a single angle and don't consider repercussions.

You need to take your blinkers off.

Believe it or not once upon a moon I would have agreed with your post and totally disagreed with JTTs. I say this in all sincerity.

Life certainly changes people.