The Journey from the Basement

[amike555]

BIG thank you

Socrates, I just want to thank you the best way I know how and that is to offer my most humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of such an enlightening master, as you have truly enlightened me (helped me ignite my TP)... Through this journey I have had many realizations and I completely accept the need for a TP as truth. This being said, I don't think that there was any need for you to carry on, as it is the rest of us that need to carry on with our person path to the mastery of trading.

You Socrates, have planted your seed of realization and now it is up to the rest to water it and help it grow.

Wine is strong
a king is stronger
and woman even stronger
but truth conquers all

Thank you to all and I wish you all the best in life.

Truly
Michael

 

[china white]

JO, very interesting posts. For the benefit of the audience, an NDE is a near death experience, the light and the tunnel is experienced by those of us who have and NDE. I had one at the age of 7. An OOB is an out of the body experience, in which the casualty is able to see his body from a distance, usually from above, but not always, often the casualty is very near death or even declared clinically dead, for example, no pulse, no heartbeat. The medical world is baffled by all this. These experiences are life changing, really formative. Nothing is the same, ever again. Many NDEs go on to develop unusual biomind faculties later. This is well documented elsewhere, those of you who are medical practiioners will be familiar with this topic.

My mother had a "clinical death". what she's been seeing after that is truly amazing... I wud not even dare go into that....NOR wud I dare go into how she knows MY future so clearly that SHE HERSELF stops herself in her steps telling me what that is....

 

[SOCRATES]

Thank you all for your very kind messages, both public and private. I am overwhelmed.
An important statement will be made when this thread hits 100,000 views.

 

[DaveJB]

Cheers Soc.
The style of presentation etc has, I think, not always been popular but you've helped people check their psychology out a bit - personally I've had what I think of as a mindeset, a mental character that is appropriate to trading, that I developed fairly quickly... when running networks I've had to suppress intuitive responses to an extent as a methodical approach proved more reliable, in my current profession my 'natural' response frequently has to be suppressed while I conform to the character I 'wear' as appropriate to that environment. Dr Elder , and many others, stress what is basically the need to develop a TP - not an alter ego you slip trancelike into, but somebody whose trading is not unduly hampered by human emotion. You might not see it quite this way, but so far this topic has been, to me, an invitation to work harder on my psychological side - not my favourite topic, but I think useful, so thanks.

As I said earlier, maybe a week or so back, you need the TA skills as well - so I'm working harder on them, and we'll see where it all ends up. 'No indicators' is a direction worth going back to try, if I can't read a candle chart worth a hoot then I'll probably do no better using RSI <g> For all I know your important post at #100,000 will be to announce you're Clem Chambers and this has been an ADVFN wind up, but I've still gained from it so frankly I'm happy enough... it has caused me to retrace my steps somewhat, go back and dig deeper into areas I realise I skimmed in the past, and I don't think that will prove to be time wasted.

Thanks again, it has been interesting.
Dave

 

[tradesmart]

I now appreciate the significance of Socrates repeated warnings about the potentially catastrophic results of a defective TP..........

see http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showpost.php?p=122739&postcount=45

With this in mind, we hope that you will return sooner rather than later, dear sir.......

 

[TheBramble]

My mother had a "clinical death". what she's been seeing after that is truly amazing... I wud not even dare go into that....NOR wud I dare go into how she knows MY future so clearly that SHE HERSELF stops herself in her steps telling me what that is....

That's an interesting situation to be in China. Let's assume it's all good news. If she tells you, you might not do/might do what you otherwise should/should not - for 'that' to occur.

A more concrete example. Say you (not YOU, but ONE) wants to be an excellent trader and be able to develop a biomind capability to futurologically determine what was going to happen in the markets - or a small section of the markets - or even just one stock or index in the market.

If someone came up to you and said "Don't worry, you'll get there. You'll do it. No problem. Absolutely certain to happen". You might not take all the actions you need to (and avoid all those you need to avoid) to end up where you want to be.

It's rather like the opposite to a 'self-fulfiliing prophecy' (anyone know if there is a recognised term for that?).

However, although you Mum is quite right not to give you the SP on the rest of your life, if she could give me a clue as the result of the 3:30 at Goodwood, tell her I'd really appreciate it.

 

[a320]

May I take a moment also in Thanking Socrates for this wonderful piece of work..

I still disagree with this quote though.... )

You are funny 320, there is nothing mystical about all of this,
except it involves 10% inspiration and the 90% perspiration.

Many Thanks

CJ

 

[Thirteen]

so has anyone made any money as their new selves then, or am i an idiot?

 

[GirlPower]

Yes.

 

[TheBramble]

so has anyone made any money as their new selves then,

Yes. But my new self keeps telling my old self the cheque's in the post.

 

[SOCRATES]

Both ! I have just seen this. I am still in my Star Chamber and it is 2.30a.m. and there is no end in sight, and I haven't a moment to live, I am so busy, I will need a really good holiday soon. But if you pursue this line of reasoning you will go on the rocks very easily. I am concerned because no sooner do I take my eyes off you lot that you start to pursue the wrong line of thinking. I will expand further:~ The object of the excercise is develop the TP properly. This means the HP cannot be allowed to interfere. I have said before that the HP is looking for any excuse to interfere. It interferes because it thinks it is helping you. It may help you in everything else but not in trading or in allowing you to have a separate persona outside its control. Therefore you are playing into the hands of the HP when you start to talk like this.

The HP believes the object of trading is the pursuit of money. This is not correct. The object of trading is to GET IT RIGHT CONSISTENTLY, and when you succeed as a result of operating via the TP correctly, the money will sort itself, and not the other way round. This is why the majority of people who fall into this kind of thinking not only do not progress, but in fact set themselves up to fail, to fail miserably.

This is a curious contradiction. I am willing to expand further. The thought of money is the main reason for the stimulation of greed. Greed is an emotion. Emotion disables reason. The disablement of reason is hand in hand with the impairment of the ability to logically deduce and to ACT according to what is logically deduced and reasoned. I have mentioned this before several times, yet, you do not pay attention, because you persist in viewing all this through the wrong goggles. The goggles you must use are the TP goggles, that do not allow you to view this with an emotion attached.

A banknote, or even a pile of banknotes means nothing to the TP. It only means a lot to the HP but then in terms of the emotion engendered by the HP's opinion of the pile of banknotes and what they, in humanistic terms, signify. But a banknote is an IOU, pure and simple. If you go to the Bank of England with a £50 note in your hand and ask for £50 you will be given another £50 note to replace it. It is just a promissory note, and nothing to get excited about, or to fret over, or to salivate over, either. Let us be sensible about this, please.

A banknote is a Debt Denominated Coupon. It is not a gold nugget. It is a peice of paper, sometimes a grubby peice of paper used to obtain goods and services. It has no sentimental or emotional value when viewed through the TP. It therefore does not have the power to disable logical deduction and reason and the ability to act when viewed through the TP.

Through the TP it is just a peice of paper, with no more importance than a Las Vegas Casino Chip in your pocket if you find yourself walking among Geysers in Iceland. When viewed in this context., money, and its ability to stimulate a condition leading to an emotion, is completely depowered. This is the way it must be when you trade, or think of trading.

I am overwhelmed with work. Thank you very much for the avalanche of PMs. I promise I will reply to you all individually in due course.

Kind Regards As Usual.

 

[TheBramble]

Just when we all thought school was out...

Seriously though Socrates, thanks for that. A vital point about realigning one's aspirations. Very similar to many successful traders' dictums (dicta?) that it's better to manage your losses and let the profits take care of themselves.

This also highlights another important point. Socrates, you've got a lot of fans on here and you have mentioned the demands on your time, but if you can't manage your time effectively (net present, future etc) - who can?!

I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping that you will be able to, if only occasionally, jump in and give us a sharper focus on your ideas.

 

[TheBramble]

...which brings me to another point...

I imagine I, like many, have unanswered questions relating to Socrates' posts.

Although the effort involved in working through these issues on a personal basis will provide the greatest benefit, there is also much to be gained IMHO by sharing those findings with interested others. Much like a Scientific Symposium.

To this end, rather than watch this thread slowly run down, I believe it would be very much in the spirit of its original inception to continue to use for discussion of issues raised and unresolved.

From my own experience, long posts (and this one if getting very close to being one!) don't get as much response as short ones. (Socrates' excepted to a large degree).

So rather than bung all by outstanding issues (as in unresolved rather than pure brilliance) into one post or doc, I'll drip feed them through to see if others have the same questions or even better, if they did once, but now have the answers.

If others do the same I suspect we will find ourselves able to at least maintain momentum and at best make strong advances in those areas that Socrates has discussed.

 

[MikeW]

A useful delve/insight into many of the aspects covered by Socrates I believe can be gained by reading:-

Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas (an excellent read), and equally,

Trading for a Living by Dr Alex Elder. The latter of which to a lesser extent perhaps regarding the TP side of things but usefully covers many of the mechanical aspects very thoroughly. It does include indicators, which is slightly against the 'grain' of this thread I know, but I feel they are covered in such a way as to explain the intellectual basis of them & their inconsistencies & contradictions to the extent that it helps to see the bigger picture & the context of when they can be used & more importantly when perhaps they shouldn't.

Rgds to all.
MikeW

 

[Dom1]

My view of the 5 concentric rings and the development of consciousness:

5. sense experiene, as, for example, a babies. The truth as pure abstraction. Spirit as matter in space-time.
4. Dualism, ego, subject and object, fear-greed, good-bad, time. Abstract knowing. The beginning of notion of self but only through other-object. Struggle and conflict within projected as the struggle with the other, Mechanical systems of trading. Symbols, words; always only half truths which lead to confusion and misery, and doing the opposite of what was intended.
3. The need to find unity, to negate ego and dualism. Begining of observation of other as self. Socrates notion of TP and his method of observing other-self.
2. End of dualism and time. Unity through other. End of struggle as their is no one left to struggle with as self and other disappear into now. Constant serenity in a timeless now, pure objectivity. No filters or beliefs or expectations because no ego, no concern about past or worry about future. The now moment. Past-present-future viewed always as what is now. Intuitive trading. Can not be mechanical because it is always happening now. End of reliance on form or method which leads to creativity.
1. Death of false self-ego. Unity through separation complete. Self reflection, thought which thinks itself. Knowledge and will as one. Struggle and conflict transformed to pure creativity, Being. Conscoiusness.

The apparent contradiction of the TP:

What are its characteristics: no emotion, no expectations, a non reliance on form, objective. These are not the qualities we would normally think of as the qualiites of a persona. Yet it does have one quality: The negation of qualiites. It strives to always remain above, detached. The only way I can understand the TP is that it is what is often called as being in the now moment or some variation of it. At this level many names (always abstractions, truth cannot be an object of knowledge) can be used to describe. The now moment, objectivity, intense concentration-focus, awareness, In relation to trading, the Trading Persona. If one was camping and anticipated an accident, you could call it being aware, being now, or label it the Life Saving Persona LSP. There are many portals to this place. Only ones own effort can get one there and keep them there. It means overcoming the blinders and filters of the ego. The ego will literally fight to its death and won't give you a seconds rest (there is nothing harder to kill than that which is unreal), but thats another story.
Most traders start off with initial success but find they have become worse in time. We are more now when something is new but when, in time, we always look away, to the past or the future for the answers, in so doing we miss the truth which is always now.

 

[Glenn]

Here is a piece of research which lends itself to this thread:-

www.greatspeculations.com/brett/learning_to_trade.htm

There is quite a lot of correlation with what Socrates has said.

It's quite lengthy, but covers the two main aspects of trading - pattern recognition and psychology.
It gives some idea of the amount of effort required and postulates that this is a big barrier to success.
e.g. you can't become an Olympic athlete if you only train part-time.
i.e. most people never make it as a trader because they simply don't have the time in which to carry out the necessary apprenticeship and thereby acquire the necessary skills and mindset.
Or as the researcher puts it "...few people can undergo the “starving artist” phase of skill-building. "

They key aspects imo are described as in the research as Implicit Learning and Tacit Knowledge.
Things which I think Socrates is working hard to make people aware of and has started to impart.

A worthwhile read imo, if only to reinforce messages already taken on board, or perhaps to present them in a different way.

Glenn

 

[Rognvald]

Glenn

Well posted but this ("...few people can undergo the “starving artist” phase of skill-building. ") should really read


"...few people can or are prepared to undergo the “starving artist” phase of skill-building. "

I am sure that if Socrates sees this he will wish to comment

 

[TheBramble]

Or as the researcher puts it "...few people can undergo the “starving artist” phase of skill-building. "

Will download and read at leisure, but can't resist the immediate observation that I'm probably not the only one to have gone through the 'starving artist' phase quite naturally and automatically as a result of my embryonic trading skills!!!

Things which I think Socrates is working hard to make people aware of and has started to impart.

And hopefully not yet finished...I don't think I'm quite there just yet....

 

[firehorse]

Here is a piece of research which lends itself to this thread:-

www.greatspeculations.com/brett/learning_to_trade.htm

There is quite a lot of correlation with what Socrates has said.

Many thanks for the link.

Many correlations with what Socrates has said with some research backup.

 

[SOCRATES]

Many thanks for the link.

Many correlations with what Socrates has said with some research backup.

I have a few minutes between calls. Actually what Brett N. Steenbarger Ph D describes as impicit learning is correct, but it is unimaginably, you could say, "underdescribed". This is because the process of development is experiential and tortuous. This is because in addition to the information shocks that the HP has to endure, there is the additional difficulty of acquiring and perfecting the appropriate mindstate.

Mindstate is the equilibrium of being. Imperfect persons have imperfect mindstates. The more developed the individual the less difficult it is to develop a better mindstate. Also environment is important. If you deal with mad people all day long your mindstate will reflect this. If you have an environment condusive to reflection and peace and quiet your mindstate will reflect that. Therefore there are two basic things to consider, development and environment. For the trader, the condition of being is crucial.

All of this is difficult to explain as it involves intangible concepts. We can now explain that
being is a state of existence, ideally involving complete serenity and impartiality. The HP is not built for this either, it is constructed for response, the stimulus occuring via emotions. To try to neutralise emotional intervention via the HP is pointless. The HPs defence mechanism is able to overcome, circumvent, thwart, circumscribe, prevent and any other conceivable ploy you can imagine and can not, the HP will put in place in order not to lose its authority as the preserver of life. There are no short cuts, sorry. Nor are there any solutions by reading silly books. The solution is by work on self; nasty it is, interminable, tedious, painful, unpleasant, and so on until the unguarded route the HP cannot patrol and guard is found, and through this route the building blocks can be delivered to construct the TP, independent of the the HP, and beyond its control and interference.