Syria

[Splitlink]

I started a rough draft on what the future holds for humanity but it was too pessimistic and I decided to leave it.

Politicians cannot solve the problem. If they are fortunate, they may be able to pass it on, hot potato style.

Obama has always been a disappointment on foreign policy. He was elected by the poorer sectors of the US, in the hope that he would improve their lot at home. He has been singularly unsuccessful in that field, as well.

The US is inthe hands of Capitalism in its worst form, where even the slightest indication of a desire to improve social security turns a person a nasty pinky colour. Obama is a puppet put into power to appease the blacks and the incident resulting in the death of the black man in Miami. a few months ago, shows us that.

I don't like Putin but that is the type of leader we must have. Thatcher and Reagan, as well.

A nation must have a strong leader to push its policies through. Obama does not cut it, nice fellow, he may be.

I was in the MN. A phrase attributed to a Master said, "Give me a mate that the the crew does not like. If the crew likes him, I've got problems"

 

[Atilla]

To talk of red lines being crossed on the basis of the use of weapons of mass destruction (nerve gas) rather than machetes and clubs seems a rather arbitrary basis for punitive military action.

To commit to massive military retribution for the killing approximately 1400 people where neither the nerve agent used nor the perpetrators have been positively identified while the world stood back when the Hutus very openly and publicly with intent and full claim murdered somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Tutsis (and pro-peace Hutus) cannot surely be considered a humanitarian response, but far more likely a political one.

A that time Clinton didn’t need the kudos of a war – he was already a popular president - and remains to this day one of the most popular presidents. Obama however is suffering from nonentity crisis and will likely go down in history as the biggest let down presidents ever. He arguably had a Sisyphean task ahead of him as the first black president and expectations of him and his tenure were impossibly high. But he has without doubt been lacklustre in his policies and diffuse in his administration. Perhaps either he or his aides who hope to convince any subsequent Democratic president to retain their services, realise some capital could and should be made from the Syria situation. Bit like Maggie Thatcher and the Falklands which came at just the right time to re-energise her flagging fortunes.

The reason the US (then under Clinton) gave at the time of the Rwandan genocide for their reluctance to go in was that it had vowed the year before after it’s disastrous peacekeeping mission in Somalia “never to return to a conflict it couldn't understand, between clans and tribes it didn't know, in a country where the US had no national interests”.

Seems the US has decided it does have ‘US national interests’ in Syria, just as it did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think Obama has done very well. Republicans would have seen to the death of the dollar with their cowboy kick ass waging war all over the world.

Often it is the case history only remembers war leaders but not the quiet ones who do good.

Considering what Obama was handed not sure he could have done much else.

I think his great

 

[Splitlink]

I think Obama has done very well. Republicans would have seen to the death of the dollar with their cowboy kick ass waging war all over the world.

Often it is the case history only remembers war leaders but not the quiet ones who do good.

Considering what Obama was handed not sure he could have done much else.

I think his great

IMO he has been a status quo president. As you say, he has had a serious crisis on his hands but has it improved because of him, or in spite of him?

Nations can carry on without a leader. for a while, but needed changes against powerful odds need a strong leader. Guantanamo still exists when it was one the cornerstones of his election speeches.

I wish him luck with his beliefs, but luck is only an ingredient of strong policy, not the whole thing.

 

[new_trader]

The US is inthe hands of Capitalism in its worst form, where even the slightest indication of a desire to improve social security turns a person a nasty pinky colour. Obama is a puppet put into power to appease the blacks and the incident resulting in the death of the black man in Miami. a few months ago, shows us that.

Only a person who hasn't got the foggiest idea what Capitalism is would write utter garbage like this! Obama is in power because he panders to the coveting, envious "money for nothing" voters who like the idea of getting free stuff from Government. They don't care or even understand where the "free" stuff comes from.

Original Obamaphone Lady: Obama Voter Says Vote for Obama because he gives a free Phone - YouTube

Take a look at Detroit, there is no way anyone can blame that on Capitalism, that city has been run by democrats for years and years and they still think big Government is the solution. The entire USA is headed the same way.

The two W's of Keynesian economics, welfare and warfare have bankrupted pathetic little Britain and the U.S.S.A...and now the pathetic politicians need another war to distract the sheeple from the mess their economies are in.

USA...USAAA...USAHH....USBAHHH...BAHH...BAHH...BAHH!

 

[Pat494]

The US system was designed imho so that the executive could not do as they liked. There is executive emergency power that can be used but generally the boring stuff has to be checked by Congress.
A pity Kennedy to Bush . weren't checked a lot more.

This is a major opportunity for Congress to assert itself just as the UK Parliament did and say NO !!
Enough disasters are quite enough.

 

[Splitlink]

The US system was designed imho so that the executive could not do as they liked. There is executive emergency power that can be used but generally the boring stuff has to be checked by Congress.
A pity Kennedy to Bush . weren't checked a lot more.

This is a major opportunity for Congress to assert itself just as the UK Parliament did and say NO !!
Enough disasters are quite enough.

I agree with you on this one. It is a major opportunity for Congress, as it was for Parliament.

This executive power concerns, in my opinion, matters of national security and it is obvious that in a situation like, for instance, The Cold War, split second decisions may need to be taken. Syria is not in that category and the proof of it is that Obama has delayed an attack until the Congress vote, which takes any urgency out of the equation.

In fact, If Congress says yes, than Obama could decide to let that serve as a warning to Assad that America's responce to another chemical attack will be immediate.

 

[tuscan]

Does anybody have any crackpot left wing conspiracy theories on why the west is supporting the Syrian uprising? Do we need more camels or something? Is Latakia going to be the new Benidorm?

1. Golan Heights are Syrian according to international law and United Nations, even Izrael admits that (but still occupy this territory)
2. Izrael is giving US company right to drill oil there.
3. some of shareholders: Rupert Murdoch, Dick Cheney, Rotschild

I'm against "conspiracy theories", and normally I wouldn't give a toss , but these are facts and this is jewish/izraeli business news, not conspiracy theory website:

N.J. firm wins original rights to drill in Golan Heights | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Israel awards first Golan oil drilling license - Globes

What do you think ?

 

[Purple Brain]

A pity Kennedy to Bush . weren't checked a lot more.

I don't think they could have checked Kennedy any more thoroughly than they did.

"The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination." - Voltaire.

 

[Pat494]

I don't think they could have checked Kennedy any more thoroughly than they did.

"The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination." - Voltaire.

I just love good quotes so here is one I heard on the radio.

Lord Salisbury ( in 19th century) in a speech against democracy said " why should 5 men tell 4 men what to do ? "

or

in my words " Just because there are more inmates in an asylum than staff, does this give them the right to issue the orders ?

 

[new_trader]

Democracy: Two wolves and a sheep voting on what they will eat for dinner.

 

[Purple Brain]

Obama calls off congressional vote on military action in Syria.

This is a good move and will warm US/Russia ties given it was a Russian initiative.

Doesn't make any difference to Syria one way or the other of course. And in reality, it just gives Assad breathing space. Everyone wins.

I wonder what impact the vote would have had on the USD? The cancellation of the vote has had no discernible impact on it.

 

[Pat494]

Democracy: Two wolves and a sheep voting on what they will eat for dinner.

Perhaps I could rephrase that

democracy = many sheep who are told they are in charge of a pack of wolves.

 

[Pat494]

seems to me the ME needs a major culture shift away from settling issues by violence. May take a century or two but I am confident they will achieve this in time.

 

[Splitlink]

seems to me the ME needs a major culture shift away from settling issues by violence. May take a century or two but I am confident they will achieve this in time.

I sense tougue in cheek, Pat, but if you read English history, "a century or two" simply is not enough time. Roman Catolic priests, because of the fact that they were the only ones who could read and write, became the monarch's civil servants. It took until Henry VIII to throw off Rome, bur Catholicism and religion in general, influenced Parliament until well into the 16th century.

Man made religion, any of them, is the problem because so many of Asia's poor are illiterate. Guess who teaches them.

 

[Purple Brain]

seems to me the ME needs a major culture shift away from settling issues by violence. May take a century or two but I am confident they will achieve this in time.

Unfortunately, there's absolutely no basis for any optimism in that coming about. Anywhere. And issues that run long and deep are never really settled.

The Anglo-Irish peace accord being a case in point. No legislation or political agreement can ever nullify centuries of dispute, anger and discrimination - whether any of those factors have any historical reality or not. You can't legislate away peoples deeply help beliefs, hatreds and -isms - fanatical, moderate or otherwise.

The other factor is that the all violence is based on a pretext. If it weren't one pretext it would be another. The majority of young (and some old) provos during The Troubles were in it for the glory, the thrill and the community kudos rather than any deeply held political, religious or socio-economic beliefs. It was also a (locally) socially acceptable method of operating a mafia-like organisation controlling not just guns, but drugs, tobacco, alcohol and prostitution too. Meting out the occasional 'justice' not only to their opposite numbers, but anyone of their own tribe who strayed too far. Both sides were as bad as each other.

While the world debates the causes and solution to the pretext, the underlying issue is one of man's need for war, violence and control.

 

[Mr. Charts]

Just looked at this thread for the first time so haven't read it all. Sorry if this has been raised before, but would the US, France and would be participant the UK have bombed Russia or China if they had used chemical weapons in Chechnya or Tibet on their "own" people........?
So, kill more Syrians because Syrians are killing Syrians......mmmm

 

[Splitlink]

Just looked at this thread for the first time so haven't read it all. Sorry if this has been raised before, but would the US, France and would be participant the UK have bombed Russia or China if they had used chemical weapons in Chechnya or Tibet on their "own" people........?
So, kill more Syrians because Syrians are killing Syrians......mmmm

I believe that Obama boxed himself into a corner on that "red line" speech, anyway, and Cameron's defeat in Parliament gave him the excuse to go to Congress. An excuse that was not used because of Putin's plan.

In fact, at the moment, back to square one. Assad will, still, knock the crap out of the opposition but legally. Maybe, Russia could give him some napalm, the stuff that America used in VietNam, instead. That seems to be ok.

 

[Pat494]

I'm only surprised silly Willy Hague didn't parachute some men in. Perhaps next time he will go himself ? Hess like ?

 

[Mr. Charts]

I believe that Obama boxed himself into a corner on that "red line" speech, anyway, and Cameron's defeat in Parliament gave him the excuse to go to Congress. An excuse that was not used because of Putin's plan.

In fact, at the moment, back to square one. Assad will, still, knock the crap out of the opposition but legally. Maybe, Russia could give him some napalm, the stuff that America used in VietNam, instead. That seems to be ok.

Maybe the Americans might find a few canisters of Agent Orange tucked away somewhere to give to the "rebels"........that'll have a lasting effect.....

 

[Mr. Charts]

Of course Agent Orange isn't a chemical weapon for use on people, it's merely an "agricultural" product which has the side effect of killing people and producing deformities in succeeding generations.
Quite a wholesome all-American weapon really.........