Schneider Trading Associates: Graduate Training Program

[Arbu]

So how do you get a start in the industry then?

Yeah I second that question. It seems clear that Schneider isn't a route into a bank or hedge fund, and if that's what you want to do ultimately you'd be better off not going to Schneider.

But how do you get into a bank or hedge fund without prior experience? If you think it can be done maybe you'd like to post a link to an advert for a position that would suit a mid-career Oxbridge science graduate like me? I didn't study maths at university because my maths teacher at school said that university maths had no practical purpose. And I didn't study computer programming because it was seen as so nerdy at the time. And I don't have a Phd because the university careers handbook said that a Phd would be considered excessive for the City. Seems to rule me out of a lot of IB positions. If you don't come up with anything I shall be applying to Schneider to see if I can make a career there regardless of discouragements on this thread.

 

[mpat89]

complete waste of time for an oxbridge grad

 

[Arbu]

complete waste of time for an oxbridge grad

Well, my request was to show me an alternative that I should be applying for. Any ideas? I can't find a job in my current profession.

 

[Bol17]

Find a list of smaller hedge funds and send your CV to as many as you can. You might get a couple of interviews if your CV is good.

 

[Masquerade]

But how do you get into a bank or hedge fund without prior experience? If you think it can be done maybe you'd like to post a link to an advert for a position that would suit a mid-career Oxbridge science graduate like me? I didn't study maths at university because my maths teacher at school said that university maths had no practical purpose. And I didn't study computer programming because it was seen as so nerdy at the time. And I don't have a Phd because the university careers handbook said that a Phd would be considered excessive for the City. Seems to rule me out of a lot of IB positions. If you don't come up with anything I shall be applying to Schneider to see if I can make a career there regardless of discouragements on this thread.

Don't go to schneider. First of all apply to the obvious investment banks, you'll probably get a few interviews out of that.

You can try the some of these: Liquid Capital, Mako, Tibra.

 

[Arbu]

Find a list of smaller hedge funds and send your CV to as many as you can. You might get a couple of interviews if your CV is good.

Thanks, I've sent off about 20 applications. But if nothing comes of it, and Schneider isn't cerebral enough, maybe I could just do easy scalping and play online chess at the same time there?! Could be quite pleasant.

 

[flux]

Thanks, I've sent off about 20 applications. But if nothing comes of it, and Schneider isn't cerebral enough, maybe I could just do easy scalping and play online chess at the same time there?! Could be quite pleasant.

Hey, sadly, whilst it might not be cerebral, it certainly isn't easy... generally, in my view, it's best to play to your strengths, which might be more on the cerebral side, whatever the hell that means.
S

 

[TimYoung]

Thanks, I've sent off about 20 applications. But if nothing comes of it, and Schneider isn't cerebral enough, maybe I could just do easy scalping and play online chess at the same time there?! Could be quite pleasant.

I think you need to apply to more than 20 applications. Like 200+ application more like for a normal job. The safest way to get a job at an IB is through accountancy -> corporate finance. Then if you get fired or burnt out working ridiculous hours, you would have a normal job to fall back on as well.

If you are interested in trading, better to play online poker instead of online chess or even live poker. A lot of things from poker like cash management, psychology, probability are transferable to trading imho.

 

[Arbu]

Hey, sadly, whilst it might not be cerebral, it certainly isn't easy... generally, in my view, it's best to play to your strengths, which might be more on the cerebral side, whatever the hell that means.
S

Yeah, but 99.99% of work isn't terribly cerebral, to be honest.

 

[Arbu]

Went on the Schneider course but left after three weeks. Partly because of the advice on here that it wouldn't be appropriate for me, but more because I thought the agreements they asked us to sign were outragreously biased in their favour, and they refused to negotiate them at all. Anyone thinking of joining them ought to be aware of the following:

1. At the initial interview they tell you that if you decide to leave them you won't have any liability to them unless it's within three years and you go to work as a trader elsewhere. But the contract says that if you leave before three years you must pay them the greater of £2500 per month or what they calculate would be their profit share for the remainder of the three years. It says they may waive this if you can satisfy them that you have made no trades in any capacity (even privately) for the period from when you leave until the three years anniversary. Much much weaker, and I don't see how you could ever prove that you had made no trades. So you could be stuck with a £90,000 bill or more if you wanted to leave.

2. They reserve the right to change their fees and the profit share at any time. How can that be reasonable if they're tying you in for three years?

3. They reserve the right to receive remuneration from third parties in connection with transactions carried out by you. Rebates from exchanges is probably what this is referring to. It seems pretty unreasonable that they should keep these given that if they take you on you will be paying them desk fees and will be trading what they tell you to trade. It might be that the whole profit in the trading strategy is in the rebates, in which case the profit from your three years' work would be all theirs.

So all in all I just saw too much scope to end up with three years of 6:30am starts, conceivably making money for Schneider and not for me. And I left.

 

[TimYoung]

On my course about a quarter of the people left because of the contract. I signed it without reading and thought it was just a formality. Then when one of the guys pointed out all the problems with it I did get a bit cold feet about handing it in.

I did in the end 'cos I figured the contract wasn't that important in the overall scheme of things. The main thing I wanted to know was whether I can make it as a Prop Trader. There is a high probability of failure anyway and if I don't make it the contract don't mean anything and if I do, then I figure I would want to stay at a place where I am making money.

I am pretty sure the liability of leaving early applies only to the trading account. So if I don't make any money and have nothing in the trading account, then there is no liability on leaving early.

Not too happy about it and hope it doesn't bite me in the ****. But at the end of the day, not much point getting ahead of myself on what might and what if when the main thing is whether I can bring in the £££ from prop trading.

 

[Arbu]

Pretty worrying if a quarter of people are leaving the course because of the contract and Schneider don't do anything about it. They employ a lawyer and a compliance officer so could very easily sort this out if they wanted. Or they could just show people the contract before the course starts. I don't know whether it happens every time, but it looks as if they're wasting a quarter of the places on their courses, and aren't bothered about it.

I am pretty sure the liability of leaving early applies only to the trading account.

I don't want to worry you, but I can't see where it says this in the contract.

 

[Masquerade]

So they're now making everyone sign contracts before the start of the training? It wasn't like that when I was there.

 

[TimYoung]

I think the contract is mainly use to stop people that makes it from joining another Prop firm. Maybe the lost income from those that make it > losing x number of people that might or might not make it as a trader.

Actually, STA recruit something like 20 - 30 people twice a month and from what I gather usually about one or two from a course stay longer than a year. So it is has always been about the numbers game.

Since quite a lot leave within a year I gathered if there was any funny stuff with the contracts, the word would be out by now.

Well I have signed it and handed it in. I was bothered about it before but no point worrying about it now is done.

 

[gabbytrades]

hey guys,
pardon me for being a newbie here, is it ok to ask if STA and similar Prop Trading Firms requires an applicant to be FSA Authorized?
thanks...

 

[gabbytrades]

Hi RichieE,
Am a newbie here and as I come across this particular post of yours i just became curious, pardon my ignorance, what is in it that Banks are not going to take in someone who had been to a Prop House?
Thanks..

Not really... I worked for Bloomberg for 7 years in various roles but never traded properly before. I am probably not the right person to ask as I already had a career when I decided to give this a try. However, my thoughts are the following;

1. Try getting into a bank first.
Working in a bank will give you a salary and you will learn using someone else's money... NOT yours.

2. Can you go without a salary for a year?
If the answer is yes, then by all means try making it in a prop house. There are people I know who haven't drawn a salary for 9-12 months due to the subprime crisis. So be aware that this could happen to you.

3. What are you going to do if you don't make it?
Have a backup plan. Most people don't make it in prop trading. Have an exit strategy ready. It is easier to explain a year out if you're just coming out of university. In my case I would have to explain a career break.

4. Prop trading is NOT a natural stepping stone into a bank
Although I know of one person who has managed it... most banks will NOT touch you once you've been in a prop trading house (rightly or wrongly). I just met up with someone at the Trader Monthly event in Harrods tonight. He was with me in the Schneider's Trader Training Course and has been told by recruitment consultants that they weren't interested once he revealed he attended a prop house training scheme.

 

[Bol17]

Hi RichieE,
Am a newbie here and as I come across this particular post of yours i just became curious, pardon my ignorance, what is in it that Banks are not going to take in someone who had been to a Prop House?
Thanks..

Firstly banks like to mould graduates to trade exactly how they want, they may be worried that you pick up bad habits at a prop house.

Another reason is that if you leave a prop house it suggests you were unsuccessful at trading, if the bank has thousands more applicants they might as well try a few people who do not have a failure on their CV.

Having said this not all banks will care, some HR departments will probably have never heard of schneiders. The best thing to do is it to just say you've been travelling for a few months (don't say this to Goldman Sachs, they check for passport stamps!)

 

[Rackybear]

Right, I start my 4 weeks at Schneider on the 8th. This thread I can safely say has put me off MASSIVELY.

I was only intending on treating the 4 weeks at Schneider (providing i got past the week 2 eliminations) as a internship or period of gaining experience. I dont really want to be a prop trader, but thought it would be nice to learn more about the futures fixed income market or whatever it is they trade.

I was intending on putting the experience down on my cv - do people suggest I dont?

 

[TimYoung]

yeah, you might want to do it for experience for your own trading but not something to put down on your CV.

Most big companies want team players and be moulded type of workers. I wouldn't say just Prop trading but any type of self employment is a turn off 'cos they think once you are a bit sorted you'll be off to do your own thing. Obviously there are exceptions and like when the job market was really bad you can just say you did it 'cos you couldn't find anything and you can downplay it by saying you were just looking to get experience in a financial job.

But if you made out like you really did wanted to be a prop trader, you are telling the companies you don't want to be a wage worker.

 

[KBN123]

Starting my Training Course soon, but surprised by the high turnover of staff at Schneiders.
Okay a quick question, in all probability what are the likely chances of generating a decent wage at a prop house like Schneiders or does anybody know the average salary received by futures traders (btw I am aware that there is not direct salary involved)? I know it the question might sound naive, but does anybody know the estimated figure.
I am a fast and bright learner, but do not have any prior trading experience.

Thaaaaaank you