Price, (Volume), Support, Resistance, Demand, Supply . . .

Given the Socrates situation and the probability that it will go on for the foreseeable future, I've decided to re-open the Mapping the Territory private group, of which I have been, am, and will be the moderator. The T2W Site Guidelines regarding posting behavior will be strictly enforced. If you can't follow them, don't apply. Those who violate them will be dropped.

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T2W Site Guidelines
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2. Unacceptable Content

2.1 The use of inappropriate or offensive language [will not be] permitted . . .

2.2 Unacceptable language includes, but is not limited to, any language or content that is sexually oriented, sexually suggestive or abusive, pornographic, harassing, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, insulting, threatening, profane, hateful, or that contains racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable material of any kind.

If you're interested, click "Community" at the upper right, then User Control Panel, then Group Memberships on the lower left. Most will be accepted. Some won't. That's life. If it's a problem, Sharky will close the group. Otherwise, perhaps those who would like to explore these subjects may be able to do so in a more collegial environment.

--Db
 
The general purpose of the forum is to aid those who are interested in trading by price* to develop consistently profitable trading plans.

*price movement as a reflection of or manifestation of buying and selling activity (that is, not what people think or what people intend, but what they actually do). It's not about indicators or Level II or Gann or Elliott or Wolfe or Fibonacci or anything else that is separated from the fact of and the reality of prices paid. The emphasis is on the behavior that moves price, not on the means by which one illustrates the results of that behavior.
 
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dbPhoenix, I've read thru page 8 of this thread, but am not sure that I ever caught exactly where your demand/supply pdf file is.
Would immensely appreciate someone providing a link or further description of where to find it. It may be something I've seen already, but sure won't hurt to review again.


stockdaily said:
My most reliable indicator are volume and price. RVSN is a good example of it.
 
SlickStreet said:
dbPhoenix, I've read thru page 8 of this thread, but am not sure that I ever caught exactly where your demand/supply pdf file is.
Would immensely appreciate someone providing a link or further description of where to find it. It may be something I've seen already, but sure won't hurt to review again.

Slickstreet ,
Go here and join up , something will be sent to you.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/DbPhoenix/

hope that helps

erie
 
Hi All,

As well as using Price & Volume for trading stocks, does anybody use any particular indicators to help them?

Personally,I have found the Accumulation / Distribution line a useful addition. It relies on only price & volume but offers a clearer perspective as to whether a trend is still bullish / bearish.

Can anybody recommend any other useful indicators or even offer any opinions on the one which I have mentioned. I'd also be interested to hear from those that only use Price & Volume to trade effectively.

Thanks,

Chorlton
 
Chorlton said:
does anybody use any particular indicators ... I have found the Accumulation / Distribution line a useful addition ... Can anybody recommend any other useful indicators
I don't know which thread would be better for this question, but this one is about the opposite to which you ask, so you may not get any useful replies here.
 
blackcab said:
I don't know which thread would be better for this question, but this one is about the opposite to which you ask, so you may not get any useful replies here.


Thanks anyway. I shall have a look for a more suitable board to post my question....

All the best......
 
Since this thread focuses mostly on price and volume, does anybody here use the stage analysis method by Stan Weinstein while examining price/volume relationship?
 
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There's nothing revolutionary about Weinstein's methods, they are "old school" - which makes them invaluable.

Haven't read the book, but the public domain blurb (edit:abstract below) looks professional enough. If you've read any of the other classics, it will sound familiar - or it should do anyway!

Personally, I reckon you can't get enough of these basics, just to keep your head straight.

edit:abstract source:http://wallstreetwindow.com/weinstein.htm

Weinstein’s breaks a stock’s life cycle up into 4 phases:

1 – Share Accumulation / Basing

2 – Mark Up / Rising Prices

3 – Share Distribution / Topping

4 – Share Liquidation / Declining Prices

Each of these four phases is characterized by a distinct pattern caused by the free market forces of supply and demand. In some phases, buyers have the upper hand and in other phases, sellers do.

As an investor, you do not want to own a stock that is in liquidation. Nor do you want to buy a stock that is topping out. By understanding the life cycle of stock chart patterns you will be able to know when it is best to buy a stock and when you should sell it.

Phase One – Accumulation / Basing

During the accumulation or basing phase, shares of a stock are transferred from weak hands to strong hands. This phase usually happens after a long decline or a lengthy advance. The stock trades in a very narrow range and appears to be dead money to the average investor.

They are correct to a certain degree, because - during this phase - the forces of supply and demand are roughly equal. Although there is no big buying excitement, there are no waves of sellers either. During this time, the average investor often sells out of fear that the stock will drop further or he/she sells because of impatience.

The stock market discounts the future. The market does not move based on today’s news, but on perceptions on what the future of the economy and business prospects will be. This is true with individual stocks also. The smart money, insiders and institutions, are the first to realize that a company’s prospects are brightening. Towards the end of the basing phase they begin to heavily accumulate the company’s stock. Often, although not always, the stock’s trading volume will pick up towards the end of this phase and large 'big block' purchases will take place.

A trading range defines the price action in a base. Stocks that are basing bounce between a specific high and low price zone. Sellers often wait for the stock to go to the top of its range before they sell. By doing this they create an area of resistance, a price level the stock cannot trade through. When it reaches resistance it repeatedly falls back down. The more often it does this, the stronger the resistance. The basing phase lasts as long as resistance holds and the stock remains stuck in its trading range. As a general rule the longer this phase lasts the longer the second phase will last.

Phase Two – Mark Up / Rising Prices

If the smart money continues to accumulate shares they will eventually run out of sellers to buy from. At this point, resistance gets taken out and the stock price clears its base. Bulls get the upper hand with the stock, not because there are suddenly more buyers interested in the stock, but because the sellers have disappeared.

Often - at the moment the stock breaks out of its basing phase - the fundamentals of a company are poor. However, even though this is the best time to buy a stock most analysts will be down on the stock and consequently your stockbroker will probably try to talk you out of buying.

But remember, the smart money buyers and stock prices themselves, are anticipating a positive future. You are always better off following their lead than the opinions of Wall Street analysts and most stockbrokers.

As demand outpaces supply, institutions and insiders will compete with one another to buy the stock. Their psychology begins to change. During the basing phase they bought on dips, now they do not mind buying as the stock price advances.

As the advance continues, eventually word gets out that the fundamentals of the company are improving or some positive development concerning the company becomes common knowledge. As this happens, the average investor and the general public becomes interested in the stock and begin to buy too. Analysts begin to put the stock on their recommendation lists.

Phase Three - Share Distribution / Topping

Eventually the stock gets ahead of itself and stops advancing. Perhaps the growth prospects for the company no longer look so grand. Or the stock has simply reached a high valuation. Whatever the case may be, at this point insiders and institutions decide that it is time to sell and take profits.

They find plenty of willing buyers. In fact the news is often so good about the company that people are willing to pay any price for the stock. They saw it climb during its stage of rising prices and believe that it will keep going up. Analysts say it will and so do their brokers. Almost everyone is positive about the company.

Everyone that is, but the smart money sellers who know better. Although they carefully sell into rallies so as not to cause the stock price to collapse, the stock begins to flatten out and move sideways as it bounces off of new resistance and support levels. It trades in a range, just like it did during the basing phase, but with greater volatility and price swings. In this phase, though, the smart money is distributing their shares instead of accumulating them from other people.

This phase lasts as long as the selling and buying pressure remain equal. Once the buyers become exhausted the stock will break below its trading range and begin its liquidation phase, which is characterized by sharply falling prices.

Phase Four - Liquidation / Falling Prices

While a stock is being distributed and is topping out after a lengthy price advance, big players sell into rallies while the remaining true believers try to buy dips. After the demand for the stock becomes exhausted, sellers overtake buyers and no longer wait to unload their shares on rallies.

Despite the falling prices at the beginning of this stage the average investor remains bullish about the stock and believes the pullback is nothing but a temporary correction. The good news and business fundamentals have likely just reached their peak and the stock is still considered a hot issue by most analysts and stockbrokers. Buyers mistakenly believe that the stock is now cheap because it has dropped and become obsessed with trying to guess the bottom, thinking that the stock will return to its lofty price highs.

In fact, the longer and greater the price advance in stage two the more popular the stock will remain during the beginning of the stage four decline. However, buyers in stage four become bagholders for the smart money sellers.

Stage four begins with the average investor full of hope, then holding in disbelief, and finally selling near the bottom in outright panic.

Most people think that stocks bottom when prices get so cheap that institutions and big money start to buy and that tops happen when all of a sudden people start to sell. Things don't exactly work like that.

Stock market Phase 4 declines end, not when big money buyers come in to support the stock, but when every last bagholder has sold in a panic. Basically, since there are no more sellers left, the stock begins to hold its ground - and thus the cycle repeats itself starting over with Phase One - Accumulation / Basing.

This why you get a final wave of panic selling. All the average investors who bought on hope throw in the towel in a final burst of panic. And since there is no one left to sell, and likely not many buyers interested - you get the sideways basing action that is characteristic of stage 1.

The most profitable time to buy into a stock is at the end of the stage one – which just happens to be the time of the heaviest insider interest. This is the most profitable chart pattern I know. It allows you to actually buy in low – with the insiders – and sell high when the general public, who knows very little, will willingly buy your shares and play the role of the greater fool.
 
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Weinstein

ashraf999 said:
Since this thread focuses mostly on price and volume, does anybody here use the stage analysis method by Stan Weinstein while examining price/volume relationship?

He uses a Moving Average - 30 if I remember correctly - to identify various phases.
 
TheBramble said:
There's nothing revolutionary about Weinstein's methods, they are "old school" - which makes them invaluable.

Haven't read the book, but the public domain blurb looks professional enough. If you've read any of the other classics, it will sound familiar - or it should do anyway!

Personally, I reckon you can't get enough of these basics, just to keep your head straight.

Weinstein’s breaks a stock’s life cycle up into 4 phases:

1 – Share Accumulation / Basing

2 – Mark Up / Rising Prices

3 – Share Distribution / Topping

4 – Share Liquidation / Declining Prices

Each of these four phases is characterized by a distinct pattern caused by the free market forces of supply and demand. In some phases, buyers have the upper hand and in other phases, sellers do.

As an investor, you do not want to own a stock that is in liquidation. Nor do you want to buy a stock that is topping out. By understanding the life cycle of stock chart patterns you will be able to know when it is best to buy a stock and when you should sell it.

Phase One – Accumulation / Basing

During the accumulation or basing phase, shares of a stock are transferred from weak hands to strong hands. This phase usually happens after a long decline or a lengthy advance. The stock trades in a very narrow range and appears to be dead money to the average investor.

They are correct to a certain degree, because - during this phase - the forces of supply and demand are roughly equal. Although there is no big buying excitement, there are no waves of sellers either. During this time, the average investor often sells out of fear that the stock will drop further or he/she sells because of impatience.

The stock market discounts the future. The market does not move based on today’s news, but on perceptions on what the future of the economy and business prospects will be. This is true with individual stocks also. The smart money, insiders and institutions, are the first to realize that a company’s prospects are brightening. Towards the end of the basing phase they begin to heavily accumulate the company’s stock. Often, although not always, the stock’s trading volume will pick up towards the end of this phase and large 'big block' purchases will take place.

A trading range defines the price action in a base. Stocks that are basing bounce between a specific high and low price zone. Sellers often wait for the stock to go to the top of its range before they sell. By doing this they create an area of resistance, a price level the stock cannot trade through. When it reaches resistance it repeatedly falls back down. The more often it does this, the stronger the resistance. The basing phase lasts as long as resistance holds and the stock remains stuck in its trading range. As a general rule the longer this phase lasts the longer the second phase will last.

Phase Two – Mark Up / Rising Prices

If the smart money continues to accumulate shares they will eventually run out of sellers to buy from. At this point, resistance gets taken out and the stock price clears its base. Bulls get the upper hand with the stock, not because there are suddenly more buyers interested in the stock, but because the sellers have disappeared.

Often - at the moment the stock breaks out of its basing phase - the fundamentals of a company are poor. However, even though this is the best time to buy a stock most analysts will be down on the stock and consequently your stockbroker will probably try to talk you out of buying.

But remember, the smart money buyers and stock prices themselves, are anticipating a positive future. You are always better off following their lead than the opinions of Wall Street analysts and most stockbrokers.

As demand outpaces supply, institutions and insiders will compete with one another to buy the stock. Their psychology begins to change. During the basing phase they bought on dips, now they do not mind buying as the stock price advances.

As the advance continues, eventually word gets out that the fundamentals of the company are improving or some positive development concerning the company becomes common knowledge. As this happens, the average investor and the general public becomes interested in the stock and begin to buy too. Analysts begin to put the stock on their recommendation lists.

Phase Three - Share Distribution / Topping

Eventually the stock gets ahead of itself and stops advancing. Perhaps the growth prospects for the company no longer look so grand. Or the stock has simply reached a high valuation. Whatever the case may be, at this point insiders and institutions decide that it is time to sell and take profits.

They find plenty of willing buyers. In fact the news is often so good about the company that people are willing to pay any price for the stock. They saw it climb during its stage of rising prices and believe that it will keep going up. Analysts say it will and so do their brokers. Almost everyone is positive about the company.

Everyone that is, but the smart money sellers who know better. Although they carefully sell into rallies so as not to cause the stock price to collapse, the stock begins to flatten out and move sideways as it bounces off of new resistance and support levels. It trades in a range, just like it did during the basing phase, but with greater volatility and price swings. In this phase, though, the smart money is distributing their shares instead of accumulating them from other people.

This phase lasts as long as the selling and buying pressure remain equal. Once the buyers become exhausted the stock will break below its trading range and begin its liquidation phase, which is characterized by sharply falling prices.

Phase Four - Liquidation / Falling Prices

While a stock is being distributed and is topping out after a lengthy price advance, big players sell into rallies while the remaining true believers try to buy dips. After the demand for the stock becomes exhausted, sellers overtake buyers and no longer wait to unload their shares on rallies.

Despite the falling prices at the beginning of this stage the average investor remains bullish about the stock and believes the pullback is nothing but a temporary correction. The good news and business fundamentals have likely just reached their peak and the stock is still considered a hot issue by most analysts and stockbrokers. Buyers mistakenly believe that the stock is now cheap because it has dropped and become obsessed with trying to guess the bottom, thinking that the stock will return to its lofty price highs.

In fact, the longer and greater the price advance in stage two the more popular the stock will remain during the beginning of the stage four decline. However, buyers in stage four become bagholders for the smart money sellers.

Stage four begins with the average investor full of hope, then holding in disbelief, and finally selling near the bottom in outright panic.

Most people think that stocks bottom when prices get so cheap that institutions and big money start to buy and that tops happen when all of a sudden people start to sell. Things don't exactly work like that.

Stock market Phase 4 declines end, not when big money buyers come in to support the stock, but when every last bagholder has sold in a panic. Basically, since there are no more sellers left, the stock begins to hold its ground - and thus the cycle repeats itself starting over with Phase One - Accumulation / Basing.

This why you get a final wave of panic selling. All the average investors who bought on hope throw in the towel in a final burst of panic. And since there is no one left to sell, and likely not many buyers interested - you get the sideways basing action that is characteristic of stage 1.

The most profitable time to buy into a stock is at the end of the stage one – which just happens to be the time of the heaviest insider interest. This is the most profitable chart pattern I know. It allows you to actually buy in low – with the insiders – and sell high when the general public, who knows very little, will willingly buy your shares and play the role of the greater fool.

I have read his book and I am practically using his method ever since. I always buy into stage 2 for all of the stocks I trade. But I also concentrate on some of the company's financial rations especially debt/equity.
 
Bramble,

Great post !!! Not sure whether the text came directly from the book or from your memory but either way excellent points worth noting!!!

You mention that the most profitable point to enter a trade is after Phase 1. From a TA point of view, is there any reliable chart patterns or certain relationships between price & volume which would signify this phase and equally important the end of it??

For example, would increased daily volume but with no or very little price difference signify this accumulation phase?? In reality, I'm guessing that any large buying (and thus increased daily volume) from institutions could be easily hidden to the rest of the market by splitting a buy order up and thus buying over a number of days.

From my limited experience in Trading, I do think that the advice you mentioned is vital to successful trading and that understanding how the market works is much more important than say, learning about numerous different indicators for example.

However, I'd be extremely interested in any methods / advice or tips that you can offer in trying to determine these different phases in a stock's trading cycle.

Thanks,

Chorlton
 
Chorlton said:
Bramble,

Great post !!! Not sure whether the text came directly from the book or from your memory but either way excellent points worth noting!!!
I wish I had the skills to have put it quite so concisely. I have now edited the post and quoted my source.
 
Ash

ashraf999 said:
He uses the weekly MA(30) to help identify the four stages.

Thanks Ash- that's correct. Book was a good read :D
 
TheBramble said:
I wish I had the skills to have put it quite so concisely. I have now edited the post and quoted my source.


Cheers Bramble,

Can I ask whether you focus on these 4 stages when you trade or do you have a different strategy altogether??

Also, I think I might start a new thread with regard to Weinstein’s advice about a stock’s life cycle, as I'd be interested to hear from those who have (i) read the book, (ii), those which actually focus on these stages when trading and finally (iii) how these traders identify the end of stage 1 in a stock.

Regards,

Chorlton
 
In Wyckoff terms the SPX is on the hinge ( springboard). :cool:

erie
 

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