Praying won't help you...

[Atilla]

That would depend on which universe your talking about - there could be more.
:smart:

Which one are you talking about?

there could be more. are you guessing or do you know? :-0

 

[ian]

There's always more than one...I read that somewhere.

 

[mrsoul]

There is very strong scientific evidence to show that the universe is not eternal and had a definite beginning. You surprise me with this statement because if it is true it is counter to a God creating it.


Paul

Paul,

If the universe had a beginning, then what existed before that?
It is certainly not the case that nothing existed before a hypothetical beginning of the universe because there is no such thing as nothing.
Every thing is something.
God created the life in the universe not the matter.

 

[Trader333]

If the universe had a beginning, then what existed before that?

That is not the point I was making. You stated that the universe has always existed and if it did then when did God create it ? By your own beliefs before the universe existed there would have been only God. Presumably you do not believe that God and the universe are one and the same ?


Paul

 

[mrsoul]

That is not the point I was making. You stated that the universe has always existed and if it did then when did God create it ? By your own beliefs before the universe existed there would have been only God. Presumably you do not believe that God and the universe are one and the same ?


Paul

I would define the universe as all the matter and space comprised in it.
I would define God as the source of consciousness in the universe (not the matter and space in it).
I don't believe that God created the matter and space that comprises the universe.
I think that the matter and space that comprises the universe has always existed.
I also believe that God, the source of consciousness in the universe, has always existed too.
I also think that God gave rise to all consciousness in the universe.

 

[Atilla]

I would define the universe as all the matter and space comprised in it.
I would define God as the source of consciousness in the universe (not the matter and space in it).
I don't believe that God created the matter and space that comprises the universe.
I think that the matter and space that comprises the universe has always existed.
I also believe that God, the source of consciousness in the universe, has always existed too.
I also think that God gave rise to all consciousness in the universe.

Line 2 - Why do you define God as the source of consciousness? How does consciousness transfer. What is the transfer mechanism?

Line 4 - What makes you think the universe has always existed? Logical reasoning? If so how do you deduce this?

Line 5 - By the same token what makes you think God has always existed?

Line 6 - Why do you think God gave rise to all consciousness? What leads you to think this way?


Are you talking about Hinduism?

Interesting perspective. Would like to find out more with clarifications please.

 

[Trader333]

I think that the matter and space that comprises the universe has always existed.

That is not possible based on the latest scientific findings. Specifically the fact that there is a limited amount of hydrogen in the universe. The Sun converts 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy in every second. Even though it does this the Sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had since the day it came into existence.

This process also applies to all stars of which there are estimated to be around 25 quintillion each converting hydrogen into helium which in turn reduces the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos.

If the universe had always existed then there would be no hydrogen left and yet there is ample. This in itself means that at some point there must have been a beginning.

There are quite a few other scientific reasons why the universe has not always existed and this is only one that is completely without explanation or logic if the universe had always existed.


Paul

 

[mrsoul]

Line 2 - Why do you define God as the source of consciousness? How does consciousness transfer. What is the transfer mechanism?

Line 4 - What makes you think the universe has always existed? Logical reasoning? If so how do you deduce this?

Line 5 - By the same token what makes you think God has always existed?

Line 6 - Why do you think God gave rise to all consciousness? What leads you to think this way?


Are you talking about Hinduism?

Interesting perspective. Would like to find out more with clarifications please.

Great questions Paul.
I don't have time to answer them now but I will later.

 

[mrsoul]

That is not possible based on the latest scientific findings. Specifically the fact that there is a limited amount of hydrogen in the universe. The Sun converts 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy in every second. Even though it does this the Sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had since the day it came into existence.

This process also applies to all stars of which there are estimated to be around 25 quintillion each converting hydrogen into helium which in turn reduces the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos.

If the universe had always existed then there would be no hydrogen left and yet there is ample. This in itself means that at some point there must have been a beginning.

There are quite a few other scientific reasons why the universe has not always existed and this is only one that is completely without explanation or logic if the universe had always existed.


Paul

The reason I think that the universe always existed is because if it suddenly came into existence, as many claim, then what existed before that?
Something had to exist before that, because it is impossible that nothing existed before that, since there is no such thing as nothing.
I think that the energy that underlies matter and space is always in a state of transformation and that in an infinite universe it is highly unlikely that matter just came on the scene at a point in time.
I really believe that it always existed, along with the space in the universe.

 

[Atilla]

The reason I think that the universe always existed is because if it suddenly came into existence, as many claim, then what existed before that?
Something had to exist before that because it is impossible that nothing existed before that, since there is no such thing as nothing.

then what existed before that? - because you don't know the answer to this question you are making the assumption thus your thinking that the universe always existed.

I'm really confused because you then make the supposition Something had to exist before that because it is impossible that nothing existed before that and then once again because you don't know the answer you make the assumption there is no such thing as nothing.


What is a vacuum?

What is space?

If we are talking about tangiable existence - than love and hate doesn't really exist in matter or space thus there is no love and hate in the universe...

 

[DaveJB]

Something had to exist before that, because it is impossible that nothing existed before that, since there is no such thing as nothing.

If time does not exist prior to the creation of space, then there is no 'before' therefore no requirement for guessing what came 'before' the Universe. Creation of the Universe is the creation of spacetime, as far as the inhabitants of this universe are concerned.

I think that the energy that underlies matter and space is always in a state of transformation and that in an infinite universe it is highly unlikely that matter just came on the scene at a point in time

Entropy increases, ordered systems become disordered, heat transfers ALWAYS from hot to cold. A Universe that had existed eternally would be completely disordered, and very little above absolute zero, both of which I'm pretty sure don't describe what I can observe simply by looking out of my window (as opposed to 'into my navel').

(Not to mention the hydrogen issue).

 

[GladiatorX]

I can almost guarantee God doesn't exist.... All i need to do is times 3 by 50 and get 150...

150 - God = 3

And 3 = The magic number...

Therefore logically, it would be impossible for the magic number and God to live in the same environment, after all ' There ain't room 4 the both of us'
3's words just before killing the pretend God in his fake dream.

 

[GladiatorX]

And who is deny the magic 3's existance; After-all, You cannot prove that he didn't conquer the world and play football with it on a Sunday... Because by acknowledging a consideration or opinion that the magic 3 doesn't exist; You are indirectly admiting he does exist.

 

[GladiatorX]

Plus, If God were real, the Magic 3 would have killed him and therefore he would be dead anyway;
The magic 3 always ALWAYS must by the devils of Eden, report to me who he has killed and NEVER


NEVER

In my years service has the word God even been talked about...

Therefore, theoritically, God cannot exist;
Afterall it is a fact by the Biblian-3-magical-book-trio as one of the hundred sayings that
'God? What does that mean, never heard of it?'
Therefore by religion, the existing magic 3 has told the world its impossible and ass the biblian-3-magical-book-trio is fact, it is correct and factual. You can't prove me wrong because its impossible because the book states
'Anyone who considers whether the 3 magic 3 is real, automatically through considering such an option accepts his existance'

 

[cr6196]

Had written more but it can really be summed up below-
All standard arguments for God existing are untrue, it comes down to faith, and that is all.

 

[dick_dastardly]

I believed in God because I'm comfortable with not being able to understand everything and I don't always need an answer.

I am an atheist because I'm comfortable with not being able to understand everything and I don't always need an answer.

dd

 

[Trader333]

At the risk of missing the joke Paul, what 'very strong scientific evidence' can you provide that would convince me the Universe had a 'definite beginning'?

Well one is that it is still expanding and if that is the case then going backwards it must have been expanding from some point prior to what it has now become. This is not a proof of God argument for me it is to do with the science of what is now known.

To be honest it doesn't matter what anyone posts on this subject as everyone will have their views none of which are going to change so I think I will leave it there.


Paul

 

[Technically Fundamental]

Hi TF,
What you are basically saying is that ; You can never truly comprehend god and he exist beyond your universe and beyond your observation and he also capable of creating the universe(s?) by some as yet unknown means that you naturally don't understand.

So you gave up trying to understand his action , motives and choose to be fly in his desk. That is fine, if it is works for you.

I would rather take 5M EMA crossover instead. Which I can comprehend, observe and know; how it is created and why, and the purpose it serves.

searchlight.

No what happened is I realised that I am completely irrelevant. The universe is vast beyond comprehension and I accepted it. There are people out there in this world who are smarter than I could ever be and possibly understand things and/or make plans that I couldn't comprehend or affect or whatever so why not an creator and planner of all we know in our existence?

I ask myself how is it that I, who was born of two organic beings and started life as microscopic in size, can duplicate and replicate myself until I have grown in mass, and with the aid of a complex biological programming language, in number of cells until I inexplicably become conscious? How can consciousness arise out of what is essentially, no more than pieces of an exploded star, cut down and re-arranged into a series of meat machines that work in unison to keep the consciousness going? Why can consciousness only exist where there is H2O? How is it that this conscious, moving meat in all it's balls out glory, can emit more energy per square meter than the sun? Why is the human race always striving for answers? What are we looking for? Why is it ingrained in us to ask questions? Why don't dolphins care? Why is my life so important to me? I believe there's a greater purpose to existence than just to exist.
This is why I'm always joking around. IMO existence and experience are completely absurd.
Also I don't buy evolution and that factored into my decision massivly.
Beneficial mutations?

More like

Missing link in human evolution? Sorry too untidy mate.

Dinosaurs into birds? :-/

I read an article on complex single-celled organisms once too that got me thinking.

I just think that sometimes science takes as much blind faith as religion when grand conclusions are drawn (as traders all of you know how you can try to force your opinion on the market as much as you want but the motherf*cker ain't goin anywhere it doesn't want to) and I picked religion as my basis for belief and science as my basis for understanding what we see. After all science only gives the hows and never the why's. We've changed our minds about what's what so many times over history (at least in modern western history but that another story ;-}) that IMO it's bound to happen again. If Einstein is being disproved then I have no problem with my core understanding of everything being shaken up. I only qualified to have an opinion on financial stuff anyway so who am I to say what's what?

Oh yeah in case anyone asks I was not raised by religious parents.

 

[Technically Fundamental]

Atheists are people who have not done their homework.

Thats the kind of generalising sweeping statement that stops these kind of conversations teaching you anything. Until you learn to entertain other people's beliefs you can't even strengthen your own.

 

[arabianights]

lol