People who make journals fail...

[counter_violent]

I do read some utter cr*p on this board.

I am one of the people that Boardome referred to that keeps a trading journal in the form of a blog. It is private and you won't find it if you google it and I am not looking for any glory.
I started it because I have a mentor who does not live in the same country as me and it was a useful way to show my trades, my thought process and gives a good overview of my risk also. I also include my analysis and trading plans. Since starting it I have invited a few fellow traders who are interested to see it and that has given me very valuable feedback.
For me the discipline required to maintain a journal and set down my trades, my reasonining and plans for those trades, along with subjecting them to public scrutiny (if only from an invited few) has been hugely beneficial to my PnL. It has helped my focus and my emotional discipline and functions as a kind of self-imposed quality control for my trading.
The comments section when I am asked to explain a trade or a profit target or my reasoning is also very useful to me. More useful than pats on the back or massaging ego.

GladiatorX - I actually think that someone who does not have the discipline to maintain a journal for any period of time probably does not have the determination or discipline to make as a trader either.

This mentor...is it someone we know ?

I seem to remember you mentioned an old guy who died, so just wondering if this is a new mentor you speak of.

 

[elitejets]

No its someone else who saw my posts on T2W and offered to help me privately, no charge.
So I do have to thank T2W for that

 

[wallstreet1928]

As someone who does write an 'online' trading journal it's a very interesting debating point IMO. Despite having quite a few personal and trading-related failings I can assure you that one thing I don't have is an ego problem. So why did I start a blog? For the following reasons:

1) My existing trading journal on MS Word was becoming way too cumbersome and blogs provide an extremely effective and user friendly way of documenting one's trades etc.
2) I was lacking a certain focus and discipline in what I was doing and I felt that having a few people watching over my shoulder, so to speak, might be of benefit to me.
3) Although I had been making money, the way I was trading didn't feel right and I felt it required more in depth analysis.

Has it worked?
Ulitmately it has, and in many different ways. I am much more focused and disciplined in what I do now. I am also more confident and much more profitable as well. Knowing that there are others watching what I do has added a little bit of extra pressure but this pressure has forced me to trade better, trade my plan to the letter (most of the time!) and generally stay committed to the job in hand. I should add that, although I post all my entries and exits (as any trading journal should have IMO) I also allow myself a good deal of introspection and psychological analysis. This, for me anyway, is the biggest benefit of my blog - as Dante says above, the written word can be a very powerful tool. The way I trade is simple and, like most, it's the trader, not the system, that makes the difference IMO and it is me, not my system, that needs analysis. I haven't read Travis's journal but if it focuses on him, the trader, rahter than just his system, then I think it can only be of the greatest benefit.

In conclusion I would strongly recommend blogs for new traders like myself as I have found mine invaluable. Whether one should make it public - I really don't know and don't care that much. I'm not doing anything that hasn't been done a million times before by other traders so there's nothing new to be gleaned from it. By it being in the public domain I have opened myself up to some extremely helpful comments, critique and suggestions from other traders that I wouldn't otherwise have received.

All the best
Rob

The Kitejedi is back on T2W

I hope all is well my friend, keep collecting those pips

 

[wallstreet1928]

I believe that fundamentally those who make online journals to document their trading have already failed in their psychology; In creating such a journal, to share their trades, they are ultimately being egotistical - Want to show off what they are doing to others... What other reasons could they have? They can document there trading on their own.

Psychologically, having your ego involved in trading will deter a traders efforts because it will affect there ability to trade after losses... Wanting to be right, feeling wrong when you lose, self-punishing your ego for being wrong - It all leads to 100% losses, regardless of how good the method.

So i have come to the conclusion, that if you make an online journal to document your trading; You have a very high likelihood of failure in that particular endevour...

On the other hand, a journal can be a place to recieve feedback from other traders - This again, is a sign of weakness, showing lack of confidence, an acknowledgement that you don't really know what your doing yet and a presence of wanting re-assurance and certainties in the market; Without yet understanding that no individual can predict what the market will do next and therefore its not about your ego and being right and showing-off...

So if your making an online journal - Losses are likely - Although feedback may in the long-run make you a better trade, however it will most certainty make the current efforts futile.

Admitting that you need feedback from others; assessment from others; ideas from ideas; analysis from others also highlights possibly a fear of responsability; Fear of facing the real problems people are faced with in trading; an awareness that your not yet capable of trading consistancy. Feedback may be positive' but ultimately those making online journals still probably have a psychological flaw that will hold them back from the journal being succesful monetarily.

Discuss.

Yes the EGO is a an avowed enemy and we must keep it under control

The greatest enemy is that which lies within, fear and greed being amongst them

"Self-understanding is at least half the battle in self-transformation"

I follow the Sufi Path in order to tame the EGO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

 

[pedro01]

Although I don't publish a log, the last thing I do at the end of trading is to take a screen print of every chart I traded and make notes.

For one thing, it does help you to see how good your exits are. When I'm out of a trade, I don't sit watching the chart afterwards, I look for other opportunities. At the end of the day, you can see how the action progressed after your exit.

I see nothing wrong with a review of what you did & I see nothing wrong with publishing a log.

 

[GladiatorX]

GladiatorX - I actually think that someone who does not have the discipline to maintain a journal for any period of time probably does not have the determination or discipline to make as a trader either.

I agree that traders should keep a journal 100%, just not online - Because i think the reasons for keeping an online journal are probably the same reasons they will psychologically struggle while they trade... Thats not to say there aren't exceptions and counter-arguements.

 

[GladiatorX]

The interesting thing is that most people who posted to defend journals write journals themselves; to some extent this confirms my original comments...

Self-defensive comments are a form of the ego, the ego wants to be right and wanting to be right in trading causes self-punishment upon being wrong - Creating a fearful cycle.

I do believe writing a journal can be extremely helpful - I just think, depending on the individual and their motives - That in most cases journals are written with the same behavioural problems that will cause them in trading to struggle...

Btw - I don't consider myself free in any way of psychological trading issues, i am trying to understand them myself... I'm not saying that Journal writers have problems and i don't.

 

[GladiatorX]

No its someone else who saw my posts on T2W and offered to help me privately, no charge.
So I do have to thank T2W for that

Thats probably because your a female to be honest...
Thats usually how things work like that

 

[BoarDome]

And no one will help you because you are a moron.

That's usually how things work.

-------------------------

Ego can make people fail. Although not everyone with an ego fail.

 

[Bloodhound]

The interesting thing is that most people who posted to defend journals write journals themselves; to some extent this confirms my original comments...

Self-defensive comments are a form of the ego, the ego wants to be right and wanting to be right in trading causes self-punishment upon being wrong - Creating a fearful cycle.

To echo an earlier commment - there really is some utter cr*p written on forums such as this. Wallstreet, thank you for the welcome back but I fear it is posts such as this that drove me away from T2W in the first place.

Gladiator, if you think that mine or others' posts were 'self-defensive' I think you need to re-read what has been written. For the record, I long ago managed to get rid of the concept of being right or wrong; in the same way that I hold 100% conviction that no-one can predict future market directions - the market just 'is' and will do what it wants, not what I want. I am also extremely interested to know what your basis is for the conclusion that self defence is a form of ego - perhaps you could expand? When I read your original post I thought it worth replying, as it formed the basis for an interesting debating point and, as someone who writes an online journal, I thought it worthwhile offering up a balanced argument in favour of them. I find it fascinating that you have not taken the time to examine the 'pluses' that I and others have put forward for online journals, and instead seem to be very much of a closed mind. There is no point in debate if one side is not prepared to listen to the other.

I do agree, however, with your views regarding ego, fear and self punishment, but they do not seem to be relevant to your original question / point of view, which (I thought) was to try and examine whether online journals are helpful for a trader or not.

Edit: I do not need to defend myself to anyone in trading as the ultimate defence can only be through one's bottom line. How one achieves a positive bottom line is individual to each trader. In this context the end very much justifies the means IMO.

 

[Splitlink]

I believe that fundamentally those who make online journals to document their trading have already failed in their psychology; In creating such a journal, to share their trades, they are ultimately being egotistical - Want to show off what they are doing to others... What other reasons could they have? They can document there trading on their own.

Psychologically, having your ego involved in trading will deter a traders efforts because it will affect there ability to trade after losses... Wanting to be right, feeling wrong when you lose, self-punishing your ego for being wrong - It all leads to 100% losses, regardless of how good the method.

So i have come to the conclusion, that if you make an online journal to document your trading; You have a very high likelihood of failure in that particular endevour...

On the other hand, a journal can be a place to recieve feedback from other traders - This again, is a sign of weakness, showing lack of confidence, an acknowledgement that you don't really know what your doing yet and a presence of wanting re-assurance and certainties in the market; Without yet understanding that no individual can predict what the market will do next and therefore its not about your ego and being right and showing-off...

So if your making an online journal - Losses are likely - Although feedback may in the long-run make you a better trade, however it will most certainty make the current efforts futile.

Admitting that you need feedback from others; assessment from others; ideas from ideas; analysis from others also highlights possibly a fear of responsability; Fear of facing the real problems people are faced with in trading; an awareness that your not yet capable of trading consistancy. Feedback may be positive' but ultimately those making online journals still probably have a psychological flaw that will hold them back from the journal being succesful monetarily.

Discuss.

I agree with some of what you say. Nevertheless, an honest journal will invite the type of criticism that you may need to improve. Unless you tell people what you do, you are on your own. So journals are an admission that they are inviting criticism to that way of trading because you know that you are not perfect. There are certain to be others who have done the same thing and have encountered snags.

 

[Splitlink]

If you don't have a method that works, all the writing in the world is not going to make you profitable..

True, but you may not know why it does not work until someone posts the reason. You may be as pig-headed as me , but a good reason for failure is difficult to ignore.

If you have a method that works, you don't need to write.
Finding a method that is profitable is a million times more important than writing down trades.

Correct, but the reason for posting on this site is because we are a garrulous lot by nature.

 

[GladiatorX]

To echo an earlier commment - there really is some utter cr*p written on forums such as this. Wallstreet, thank you for the welcome back but I fear it is posts such as this that drove me away from T2W in the first place.

Gladiator, if you think that mine or others' posts were 'self-defensive' I think you need to re-read what has been written. For the record, I long ago managed to get rid of the concept of being right or wrong; in the same way that I hold 100% conviction that no-one can predict future market directions - the market just 'is' and will do what it wants, not what I want. I am also extremely interested to know what your basis is for the conclusion that self defence is a form of ego - perhaps you could expand? When I read your original post I thought it worth replying, as it formed the basis for an interesting debating point and, as someone who writes an online journal, I thought it worthwhile offering up a balanced argument in favour of them. I find it fascinating that you have not taken the time to examine the 'pluses' that I and others have put forward for online journals, and instead seem to be very much of a closed mind. There is no point in debate if one side is not prepared to listen to the other.

I do agree, however, with your views regarding ego, fear and self punishment, but they do not seem to be relevant to your original question / point of view, which (I thought) was to try and examine whether online journals are helpful for a trader or not.

Edit: I do not need to defend myself to anyone in trading as the ultimate defence can only be through one's bottom line. How one achieves a positive bottom line is individual to each trader. In this context the end very much justifies the means IMO.

Self-defense is egotistical because it attempts to rigidy believe that your beliefs are right and the best.... If you didn't think you were right, wouldn't defend it; therefore your ego is involved.

I totally agree with the plus sides to the journal... Personally, most of the time i don't have a definite belief and i can back either arguement for the sake of discussion - In this instance i'm against online journals, in another instance i could be totally for it... Just chatting.

I'm convinced from replies that online journals can serve as a plus for the individual trader - It is however totally dependant on the individual and i believe the MAJORITY will be doing it for the wrong reasons... I'll say again that i'm sure their are MANY exceptions.

The title of the thread is misleading too, it is insultive of people who write journals but it meant to say 'People who make journals are likely to fail' rather than they 'fail'. Wasn't suppose to be condescending.

This isn't a 'Your wrong Gladiator X' - Its a discussion... I'm glad to hear differing views because i think its an interesting topic whether journals are worthwhile or detering

 

[rathcoole_exile]

I have a mentor who does not live in the same country as me

still learning at the feet of Spanish :smart: then eh ? :innocent:

 

[virtuos0]

I believe that fundamentally those who make online journals to document their trading have already failed in their psychology; In creating such a journal, to share their trades, they are ultimately being egotistical - Want to show off what they are doing to others... What other reasons could they have? They can document there trading on their own.

Psychologically, having your ego involved in trading will deter a traders efforts because it will affect there ability to trade after losses... Wanting to be right, feeling wrong when you lose, self-punishing your ego for being wrong - It all leads to 100% losses, regardless of how good the method.

So i have come to the conclusion, that if you make an online journal to document your trading; You have a very high likelihood of failure in that particular endevour...

On the other hand, a journal can be a place to recieve feedback from other traders - This again, is a sign of weakness, showing lack of confidence, an acknowledgement that you don't really know what your doing yet and a presence of wanting re-assurance and certainties in the market; Without yet understanding that no individual can predict what the market will do next and therefore its not about your ego and being right and showing-off...

So if your making an online journal - Losses are likely - Although feedback may in the long-run make you a better trade, however it will most certainty make the current efforts futile.

Admitting that you need feedback from others; assessment from others; ideas from ideas; analysis from others also highlights possibly a fear of responsability; Fear of facing the real problems people are faced with in trading; an awareness that your not yet capable of trading consistancy. Feedback may be positive' but ultimately those making online journals still probably have a psychological flaw that will hold them back from the journal being succesful monetarily.

Discuss.

This is a very perceptive post indeed, keep on this path. There are also other very powerful reasons why you should not keep a public journal.

 

[elitejets]

This is a very perceptive post indeed, keep on this path. There are also other very powerful reasons why you should not keep a public journal.

A public journal is different.
The title of the thread is "People who make journals fail"

 

[cuotes]

I belong to the writers side :|

I learnt about it reading the Market Wizards and I found it quite useful in several ways.

Is not the writing itself. It's the subsequent reading and thinking. As someone said, it's a way to stay focused. Just that make it worthy.

Next step is find mistakes, or simply find new ways to tune up your performance. I reckon trading as an "always-improving" activity.

Journaling is just another tool. And as any other tool it won't make you nor better neither worse.

It isn't about the tool. It's about what do you do with the tool.

 

[pedro01]

The interesting thing is that most people who posted to defend journals write journals themselves; to some extent this confirms my original comments...

Self-defensive comments are a form of the ego, the ego wants to be right and wanting to be right in trading causes self-punishment upon being wrong - Creating a fearful cycle.

I do believe writing a journal can be extremely helpful - I just think, depending on the individual and their motives - That in most cases journals are written with the same behavioural problems that will cause them in trading to struggle...

Btw - I don't consider myself free in any way of psychological trading issues, i am trying to understand them myself... I'm not saying that Journal writers have problems and i don't.

Serious questions...

Are you trading LIVE right now ?

How are the results ?

 

[Bloodhound]

Self-defense is egotistical because it attempts to rigidy believe that your beliefs are right and the best.... If you didn't think you were right, wouldn't defend it; therefore your ego is involved.

A very interesting point and I can't disagree with what you say in that context. Put in another context though I would differ in so far as I do not believe that anything I do is right or best - I simply do what works best for me, fits with my psyche etc. Does that mean I have an ego? I think not. It just means I am attempting to be true to myself.

 

[Splitlink]

Do you want to know why, after all these years, I haven't started one? For the same reason that I have not applied to become a monitor. Once one starts a journal you have to keep at it, especially if you see that there are plenty of viewers. It's a big responsibility and I admire those that keep at it. It's not a case of, simply, posting opening and closing trades, no matter how religiously that may be done. A good journal has to be carefully worded so that it is understood and one must be prepared, not just to be criticised, but to be able to find the time to explain.

We owe a lot to good journal keepers,. There aren't all that many.