No B.S. Day Trading

[DionysusToast]

SFL,

I agree with you regarding the utility of using the DOM/level II. I have tried many times to get the feeling of it, but my main difficulty is that I cannot see the “setups” because of the SPEED of movement. Maybe my brain/eyes are somewhat slow, maybe I have tried with ”difficult” instruments (BUND, EUROSTOXX, and let alone DAX!!).

¿Have you any recommendation to overcome this problem? (apart of playing many hours with PS3..)

Thanks

It depends on how you use it.

Scalping off the DOM isn't something I could/would want to do.

Using the DOM/T&S IS something I do. Let's say that you have a hypothesis that something is going to happen at a certain point - be it a breakout, breakdown, bounce, fib retracement etc...

At that point look at the DOM/T&S just to confirm that your hypothesis is correct or not. Let's say for instance, you think a price will bounce off a certain level and move down. Now you are no longer using the DOM/T&S to see what will happen next and attempting to read every tick but instead you are looking for specific things to happen/not happen.

There is a difference between the concept of being able to look at DOM/T&S and read something from it all the time and just using it at certain times using it to confirm an entry (or not).

I hope this is clear... probably not...

 

[Accumulator1914]

SFL Trader

ZN fails to make a 4-tick move. 3 ticks is all it manages before reversing all the way back. Is that due to a drop in volatility?

 

[dribs]

Reversing all the way back? 3 ticks up and 3 ticks back? That is what scalping is...? I've seen and do regularly see ZN make bigger more regular moves than that, did you just watch it for 5 minutes or one slow session and make that conclusion? Every day is different...obviously, so you're probably not going to get perfect nice big moves every single day. You just watch for the setups, jump on, ride it for all its worth, whether that is 3 ticks or 30, then get out, rinse and repeat.

As far as finding the DOM too fast to the earlier posters, I find it fine, I basically trade just off the DOM, no charts, speed is all a part of it, and the bund for me is one of the best markets to trade using the DOM, not sure how long others "try" trading like this for, but it takes a long time, can't just try it for a few sessions and go "nope, can't do it". I wouldn't trade any other way, I can see setups, and the best part is, it is extremely consistent and I clearly know if I am wrong which enables me get out straight away and either flip or wait, but I don't really need to sell it to you, it suits me and I wouldn't trade any other way, doesn't mean it will work for you.

 

[Accumulator1914]

Reversing all the way back? 3 ticks up and 3 ticks back? That is what scalping is...? I've seen and do regularly see ZN make bigger more regular moves than that, did you just watch it for 5 minutes or one slow session and make that conclusion? Every day is different...obviously, so you're probably not going to get perfect nice big moves every single day. You just watch for the setups, jump on, ride it for all its worth, whether that is 3 ticks or 30, then get out, rinse and repeat.

As far as finding the DOM too fast to the earlier posters, I find it fine, I basically trade just off the DOM, no charts, speed is all a part of it, and the bund for me is one of the best markets to trade using the DOM, not sure how long others "try" trading like this for, but it takes a long time, can't just try it for a few sessions and go "nope, can't do it". I wouldn't trade any other way, I can see setups, and the best part is, it is extremely consistent and I clearly know if I am wrong which enables me get out straight away and either flip or wait, but I don't really need to sell it to you, it suits me and I wouldn't trade any other way, doesn't mean it will work for you.

Thanks for your reply. I am learning to trade off the DOM and T&S only myself and have to admit it's not a piece of cake, but I am determined to go this particular way. I've been watching ZN for about 12 sessions now, I know it's not enough to get the idea. How long would you say most of your profitable trades last? A 1-3 minutes or so?

 

[dribs]

Thanks for your reply. I am learning to trade off the DOM and T&S only myself and have to admit it's not a piece of cake, but I am determined to go this particular way. I've been watching ZN for about 12 sessions now, I know it's not enough to get the idea. How long would you say most of your profitable trades last? A 1-3 minutes or so?

Good on you, if you want to trade this way then stick at it. As far as how long my trades last, it really depends on the action and my timing, anywhere from seconds to 15-20 minutues potentially, all depends on what I'm seeing, if I see the market is still supporting my trade then I'll stay in, if I have a doubt or see something to change my mind, I'll get out, sometimes that happens a few seconds after I get in, sometimes its a few minutes, so its hard to put a set time amount on how long my trades last.

Remember to try a few different markets, you don't necessarily have to trade ZN because that is what somoene else does, go with what you're comfortable with. If you've been doing this for 12 sessions, you have a long, long way to go, keep watching and recording. Good luck

 

[Vest]

the bund for me is one of the best markets to trade using the DOM

I am in search of a market to scalp off DOM and T&S as well and tried ZN and the bund so far. ZN seemed kinda boring and slow, the bund on the other hand was love at first sight. Liquidity, nice strong moves, low commision rates - it's all there. I am thinking to marry it for now
I'd like to ask you a few questions if I may. How many trades do you average a day? How many ticks per lot do you consider a good result for a scalper a day/week/month? What is your usual stop-loss? Do you bolt right out (1-3 ticks) or give the bund a chance to breathe a little while in a trade or average into a position (though it seemed to me that is not the way to go with the bund )?
Thanks.

 

[dribs]

I'd like to ask you a few questions if I may. How many trades do you average a day? How many ticks per lot do you consider a good result for a scalper a day/week/month? What is your usual stop-loss? Do you bolt right out (1-3 ticks) or give the bund a chance to breathe a little while in a trade or average into a position (though it seemed to me that is not the way to go with the bund )?
Thanks.

No idea, if I see something, I trade it, I stay in the trade until something changes my mind and I try and make sure my winners are bigger than my losers, if I'm wrong, I'll cut it straight away. I guess most days I'll do at least 100RTs but I don't really keep track of it, like I said I just trade when I see things, there's no hard and fast rules, like 'I will stay in this trade for X minutes long because I want Y ticks to try and reach my goal of Z ticks for the month'.

If I see a trade, I get in, cut it as soon as I know I'm wrong which will usually be within a couple of ticks, either flip it or wait for the next opportunity, if it goes my way I stay in until something says to me to get out. I don't use stop losses because I know when I'm wrong, if I know I'm wrong 2 ticks from my entry, why let it hit a 5 tick stop loss further down, its all up to what the market is telling you. Again, I'll bolt right out if I see something that makes me think I should, most times I will flip though. There's not really any "giving it room to breathe", that sounds more like longer timeframe trades, we're tallking watching order flow here, you should know what you're looking at and know if there is strength there or not, so its not like you just jump in and "give it some room to breathe", the whole reason you get in is because you see something, one side has momentum or some games being played, so there's not really any reason why you would give it some room to breathe, you're either wrong or right, if you're wrong, get out or flip it, if you're right, stay in and until you see reason not to.

This can't be taught, there's no point asking questions, the best teacher is watching it for yourself, recording what you see and keep doing it, I've spent a long, long time watching the order book and its not something you can just teach someone by answering a few questions, you get in the zone and you get a feel for your market, you get used to the size it trades, what moves there are, how long they will be, what it takes to cause a change etc. You just have to keep watching. Do what suits you.

 

[Vest]

This can't be taught, there's no point asking questions, the best teacher is watching it for yourself, recording what you see and keep doing it

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. I know it will all come down to a lot of market watching before being able to feel it nicely. But you know you can't help asking stupid questions when stepping on new soil I've been scalping a different market for 3 years but am looking into smth more liquid and expensive tickwise for more profit potential now and scalping is the only method I feel comfortable with.
Once I get to know the bund closer, I might share some ideas of my own.

All the best to you.

 

[trade2w333]

And NO, nobody is hunting your stops....most people just buy at the wrong level...

or sell [image]

and this is interesting also:
Ohh Sweet Liquidity - Part 1

 

[futuretrader100]

Since you claim that you know a lot about TA, can you tell us what TA do you know, have you ever used and that you feel that they do not work? What kind of charts you know how to read? What indicators you know and have you ever used? How do you find resistance and support in TA? Without the detailed TA you know, we find it hard to understand your claim.

I've spent the last five years trying to forget everything I know about technical analysis...which is a lot.

I'm not talking about fundamental trading. Although, if you're a position trader, you should probably have a very good feel for the fundamentals. I'm talking about the importance of being able to read the price action when day trading.

A person can look at a chart for about 1 minute and make a note of major levels. Knowing where the numbers are is not the problem. Not knowing how to read the order book is the problem. Making an entry or exit decision just because the price is a level on a chart is the problem. A scalper knows where the number is but he also has a really good feel for whether the level will hold or not because he knows how to read the volume. There are plenty of times when it's pretty obvious which way the market is going. You certainly can't know if it's going to go another 20 ticks but you can see that's it probably going to move another 3 or 4 ticks, at minimum, and there's no reason to buy at 20 if you're pretty sure you can get 16s.

If a big day trader is long 500 contracts and the market is 4 ticks against him, he is dying. His stomach is churning. He doesn't care what the charts or indicators say at that point. He's down 4 ticks and he's not losing 8. If the market continues to break, he is going to dump his position. When he dumps, he has an impact on the market. Will his selling move the market down a lot? Don't know. Depends on whether or not anyone wants to buy 500 here. If they don't, he moves the market. When he moves the market, you want to be on the right side of that move or at the very least, you want to stand aside and not be going against it. Knowing where major levels are is fine but understanding what's actually happening in terms of how many contracts are being traded at what price is much more important. Understanding the mindset of huge scalpers is more important.

Plus, while a technical trader is sitting around waiting for a certain price to get hit, scalpers might see three different good opportunities to make money just by reading the order flow.

 

[SFL Trader]

When you say "we find it hard to understand your claims", you mean you find it hard. And the reason you find it hard to understand my claims is because you have not spent years staring at a good depth of market platform. Spend six months staring at TT's X-trader or the Jigsaw depth and sales platform from jigsaw trading and then hit me up and tell me if your perspective has changed. The reason most people don't know anything about the order flow is because they don't watch the order flow and if they actually do try to watch it, they watch it on an inferior DOM which doesn't show all of the prints. For example, if you are watching the Ninja DOM, you will see a 5 lot trade but I'll see 1500 trade because I have a better platform. This makes a huge difference.

As far as TA, I've seen and used it all and none of it provides consistent results. If it did, this forum wouldn't exist because everyone on it would already be rich. You don't read a chart. A chart is black lines on a white screen which provides a graphical representation of PAST price action. The resistance and support levels you see on those charts were not created by the chart. They were created by traders buying and selling a lot of contracts and just because they did it once doesn't mean they will do it again. You have to be in the moment and you have to be reactionary. Like the other guy said in a previous post, there is no reason to take a 5 tick loss if you already know you're wrong when it's 2 ticks against you. How do you know you're wrong? You can see it in the order flow.

Anything you can see on a chart, you can see in the order flow. However, you can see lots of things in the order flow that you will never see on a chart.

Since you claim that you know a lot about TA, can you tell us what TA do you know, have you ever used and that you feel that they do not work? What kind of charts you know how to read? What indicators you know and have you ever used? How do you find resistance and support in TA? Without the detailed TA you know, we find it hard to understand your claim.

 

[Shakone]

As far as TA, I've seen and used it all and none of it provides consistent results.

Sorry but this is a silly statement.

If it did, this forum wouldn't exist because everyone on it would already be rich.

And this.

This however, is good

They were created by traders buying and selling a lot of contracts and just because they did it once doesn't mean they will do it again. You have to be in the moment and you have to be reactionary.

Anything you can see on a chart, you can see in the order flow. However, you can see lots of things in the order flow that you will never see on a chart.

Sure. But I can watch the 1 second chart and see everything that I could later see on an hourly or a daily chart in principle. In practice, it's all too easy to miss the bigger picture when doing so. The same can happen with someone just watching the DOM. Also, yes you can see things that you will never see on a chart. Not all of them are relevant, or helpful to you.

If you look at levels, then you are using some basic form of TA. If you then use DOM around those levels, and react appropriately based on your experience and understanding, you are doing exactly what most who are good with TA are doing.

I don't see why people need to suggest that this can't be done or that can't be done, because they themselves didn't find it useful, or didn't understand it, and that applies to futuretrader100 and SFL Trader.

There's another thread on the site, where some traders who use DOM explain where they got in and how they managed etc. It's very interesting for me. Sometimes they enter, and I see nothing there on my chart, and it's a good trade. Also, they often get out, and I see no reason why they should, and price continues in their favour, but they're out, despite the chart clearly saying stay in. Other times they enter, and I see on my chart that they've entered too early and price would most likely go down further, sometimes even to their stop, and they're stopped out where I'm getting in. There are pros and cons with different approaches.

 

[new_trader]

When you say "we find it hard to understand your claims", you mean you find it hard. And the reason you find it hard to understand my claims is because you have not spent years staring at a good depth of market platform. Spend six months staring at TT's X-trader or the Jigsaw depth and sales platform from jigsaw trading and then hit me up and tell me if your perspective has changed. The reason most people don't know anything about the order flow is because they don't watch the order flow and if they actually do try to watch it, they watch it on an inferior DOM which doesn't show all of the prints. For example, if you are watching the Ninja DOM, you will see a 5 lot trade but I'll see 1500 trade because I have a better platform. This makes a huge difference.

As far as TA, I've seen and used it all and none of it provides consistent results. If it did, this forum wouldn't exist because everyone on it would already be rich. You don't read a chart. A chart is black lines on a white screen which provides a graphical representation of PAST price action. The resistance and support levels you see on those charts were not created by the chart. They were created by traders buying and selling a lot of contracts and just because they did it once doesn't mean they will do it again. You have to be in the moment and you have to be reactionary. Like the other guy said in a previous post, there is no reason to take a 5 tick loss if you already know you're wrong when it's 2 ticks against you. How do you know you're wrong? You can see it in the order flow.

Anything you can see on a chart, you can see in the order flow. However, you can see lots of things in the order flow that you will never see on a chart.

DOM is overrated and the idea that you need a ‘good’ DOM is a fallacious claim made by vendors. I don’t use DOM at all.

 

[DionysusToast]

DOM is overrated and the idea that you need a ‘good’ DOM is a fallacious claim made by vendors. I don’t use DOM at all.

Well there you have it.

All those prop shops paying $1000+ a month for XTrader - well, they are just patsies following a fallacious claim made by Trading Technologies, Inc.

They should be following N_Ts journal on T2W instead.... He doesn't use the DOM, he uses YouTube :clap:

 

[DionysusToast]

I'm writing to CQG - apparently they should drop their patent cases with TT because DOM is overrated anyway and so they might as well just drop it from their product and get on with other things.

Perhaps a YouTube interface...

Seriously - no smart trader is going to use the DOM....

 

[DionysusToast]

I just called Arabian..... Told him he needed a few more moving averages on his screen...

 

[Shakone]

.

 

[new_trader]

I suppose in the history of trading, which goes back at least 100 years, nobody made any money until the advent of DOM. WOW, look at all those pretty pictures...I must be wrong...

 

[DionysusToast]

I suppose in the history of trading, which goies back at least 100 years, nobody made any money until the advent of DOM. WOW, look at all those pretty pictures...I must be wrong...

Well, has to be said, 100 years ago, they weren't weighed down with charts either.

Not that it is relevant to today but tape reading is oft mentioned in the supposed Livermores bio.

Tape reading is order flow is what Dom is all about. Can be your icing or your cake. It's a confirmation mechanism innit?

 

[scose-no-doubt]

They had plenty of charts going waaaaaaay back. Read Andrew Lo's book.