No B.S. Day Trading

[DionysusToast]

Mr Magoo

I think we are on the same page. I'm not a user of Xtrade, I just have some idea of the features used by people placing large orders.

In terms of the static ladder - can you explain that feature ?

Much appreciated

DT

 

[SM_1]

These guys are probably right.

All i was saying is that I trade out of a prop firm and I know a lot of other traders with similar styles at various prop firms. I trade the order book and I would never trade it without X-trader. I have also never met a good trader who doesn't use X-trader for that type of trading (doesn't mean they don't exist though). TT have a patent on their program specifically on the idea of a static ladder. You can get systems that look like their program but the ladder moves with the market. I would find this unacceptable when trading the order book so until their patent expires I would only trade and recommend getting the real deal.

I agree it is a massive rip, so fingers crossed someone can find a way to copy them!

Just my 2 cents

Yeah I agree, from most guys I have seen that trade properly this way also use X_Trader, that definitely seems the best way to go, but its pretty expensive, I would rather nail the method using something else then move up to X_Trader once I know I can be consistent at it, but there isn't much on offer, NinjaTrader offer a static DOM as well, but you need to pay, but its not too costly, but then NT doesn't have the cumulative vol @ price on the DOM which is a pain, as that is a key thing I believe.

I think IBs DOM is also static, but I think their data is a snapshot every 0.XX of second or something?

 

[redart]

Try the free openEcry demo.
I haven't used it in a while but i think the platform was quite impressive

DT:

Static

The inside market (ask/bid and last price) climb up and down the price ladder in response to a change in market price

The price rows are static (do not change)

Dynamic

The inside market (ask/bid and last price) is fixed in location in the price ladder display
The price rows are dynamic in that each row's price changes in response to a change in market price

 

[DionysusToast]

interesting - and XTrader has a patent on this ?

Tradestation certainly supports both modes...

 

[J Magoo]

Mr Magoo

I think we are on the same page. I'm not a user of Xtrade, I just have some idea of the features used by people placing large orders.

In terms of the static ladder - can you explain that feature ?

Much appreciated

DT

No worries DT,

when you use X-trader you have to re-centre the ladder to have the immediately traded price in the middle of the ladder. Therefore the ladder stays static while the market moves around. This is patented by TT and cannot be copied by any other company. This is important because on most other systems the ladder will move with the market. that is a problem when you are trying to get a price and that price moves along with the ladder... I hope that makes sense, its a bit hard to explain....

 

[DionysusToast]

I think IBs DOM is also static, but I think their data is a snapshot every 0.XX of second or something?

IB snap shot every 10th of a second on T&S - the DOM itself is OK but T&S is useless if you want to filter out smaller orders

 

[SM_1]

No worries DT,

when you use X-trader you have to re-centre the ladder to have the immediately traded price in the middle of the ladder. Therefore the ladder stays static while the market moves around. This is patented by TT and cannot be copied by any other company. This is important because on most other systems the ladder will move with the market. that is a problem when you are trying to get a price and that price moves along with the ladder... I hope that makes sense, its a bit hard to explain....

Maybe TT want to re-check their "patent" in that case then because NT has got it, OEC has got it and TS has got it, that I know of.

 

[redart]

Maybe TT want to re-check their "patent" in that case then because NT has got it, OEC has got it and TS has got it, that I know of.

Yes. that's what's confusing me, lol.

 

[J Magoo]

Try the free openEcry demo.
I haven't used it in a while but i think the platform was quite impressive

DT:

Static

The inside market (ask/bid and last price) climb up and down the price ladder in response to a change in market price

The price rows are static (do not change)

Dynamic

The inside market (ask/bid and last price) is fixed in location in the price ladder display
The price rows are dynamic in that each row's price changes in response to a change in market price

Thanks Redart, you have explained that much better than i did.

The other companies mentioned in a few above posts cannot have a static ladder, TT would sue them like they have heaps and heaps of companies that have tried. I think the closest to a static ladder is Pat systems. I think they are currently being sued by TT but apparently they may get away with it because their ladder only moves once or twice a day...

 

[J Magoo]

Maybe TT want to re-check their "patent" in that case then because NT has got it, OEC has got it and TS has got it, that I know of.

here is an article from the last people that tried to violate this patent-

FFastfill and Trading Technologies Settle Patent Dispute Over MD Trader™ Technology

CHICAGO and LONDON, August 15, 2005 — Trading Technologies International, Inc. ("TT") and FFastFill Plc ("FFastFill") today announced that they have agreed to settle a lawsuit pending in the United States District for the Northern District of Illinois in Chicago alleging that FFastFill and its Future Dynamics subsidiary infringed TT’s U.S. Patent Nos. 6,766,304 and 6,772,132.

The lawsuit was resolved today with the entry of a Consent Judgment finding infringement and that the patents are valid. Under the settlement agreement, FFastFill admitted that the Crossfire product formerly offered by Future Dynamics infringed on TT’s patents and agreed that the patents are valid. FFastFill has agreed to not infringe TT’s MD Trader patents in the future. TT has agreed not to sue FFastFill and FFastFill’s customers for infringement of the MD Trader patents based on FFastFill’s new QuickTrade product. As part of the settlement, TT has absolved FFastFill and FFastFill’s customers of any past liability for infringement of TT’s MD Trader patents.

"We are happy to resolve this matter and put any patent issues we have with TT behind us. FFastFill respects TT’s static order entry ladder patents and has no intention of violating TT’s patents. Going forward, FFastFill’s customers can use our new QuickTrade product without any concerns regarding TT’s static order entry ladder patents," said Keith Todd, Executive Chairman and CEO of FFastFill.

"Our settlement with FFastFill is further evidence of the strength of our MD Trader patents," said Harris Brumfield, CEO of TT.

 

[SM_1]

I guess we got a few court cases coming up then. Because I have all of the above on my computer and can prove it, the ladders aren't moving, they are all static, some are dynamic by default, but you can enable it on all of them, NT you need to pay, not sure about TS.

I wouldn't be using them if they were dynamic, I hate dynamic, makes my head hurt. lol.

They must have some kind of agreement, surely they can't not notice that 3 of the most popular trading platforms around all have static doms.

 

[J Magoo]

I guess we got a few court cases coming up then. Because I have all of the above on my computer and can prove it, the ladders aren't moving, they are all static, some are dynamic by default, but you can enable it on all of them, NT you need to pay, not sure about TS.

I wouldn't be using them if they were dynamic, I hate dynamic, makes my head hurt. lol.

They must have some kind of agreement, surely they can't not notice that 3 of the most popular trading platforms around all have static doms.

Who knows, we are getting off topic here...

Anyway, to the person who was asking questions about learning, if you can afford it, X-trader is the best thing for you to be learning from. Im sure you can get a simulator account on TT from somewhere? maybe even from TT...
If not, there seems like a lot of options to start learning to read the order book. it takes a very long time to get good at, a very, very long time and requires you learning full-time not just when you have some spare time. This is because it is the hardest style of trading to learn but if you are good at it, you can be more consistent than any other style of trading.

Good luck

 

[SM_1]

Who knows, we are getting off topic here...

Anyway, to the person who was asking questions about learning, if you can afford it, X-trader is the best thing for you to be learning from. Im sure you can get a simulator account on TT from somewhere? maybe even from TT...
If not, there seems like a lot of options to start learning to read the order book. it takes a very long time to get good at, a very, very long time and requires you learning full-time not just when you have some spare time. This is because it is the hardest style of trading to learn but if you are good at it, you can be more consistent than any other style of trading.

Good luck

Yeah, there must be some kind of agreement between the companies or something that we don't know about, NT has had a static DOM for as long as I can remember, anyway, off topic.

Do you trade this way? You mentioned you trade at a prop firm if I remember correctly?

How long would you say it would take to "learn" this, if one was to watch the market everyday?

 

[J Magoo]

Yeah, there must be some kind of agreement between the companies or something that we don't know about, NT has had a static DOM for as long as I can remember, anyway, off topic.

Do you trade this way? You mentioned you trade at a prop firm if I remember correctly?

How long would you say it would take to "learn" this, if one was to watch the market everyday?

It depends on what market you are trading and it depends on the person.

Some markets are harder to learn than others. For example the Bund I would say is harder to learn than, the FTSE however, if you can get good in the Bund, you can increase your size substantially more than you can in the FTSE. So there are pro's and cons to both.

In terms of time, it completely depends on the person. It is also worth considering that this style of trading only suits certain traders personalities. So for some people they could try and trade this way for a very long time and they wont be very successful at it.
It also depends the market. if the market is changing personalities quite dramatically the learning curve will be slower but potentially better for the new trader in the long run.

So to answer your question, the time it takes is up to you... If you were doing it as a career i would realistically say more than 12 months (if you are good) to be at the point where you are consistently making enough money to live off

 

[SM_1]

It depends on what market you are trading and it depends on the person.

Some markets are harder to learn than others. For example the Bund I would say is harder to learn than, the FTSE however, if you can get good in the Bund, you can increase your size substantially more than you can in the FTSE. So there are pro's and cons to both.

In terms of time, it completely depends on the person. It is also worth considering that this style of trading only suits certain traders personalities. So for some people they could try and trade this way for a very long time and they wont be very successful at it.
It also depends the market. if the market is changing personalities quite dramatically the learning curve will be slower but potentially better for the new trader in the long run.

So to answer your question, the time it takes is up to you... If you were doing it as a career i would realistically say more than 12 months (if you are good) to be at the point where you are consistently making enough money to live off

Great, thats about what I was thinking, at least a few months. Thanks heaps for that

 

[J Magoo]

Great, thats about what I was thinking, at least a few months. Thanks heaps for that

No worries, always happy to help out another Aussie

 

[SM_1]

No worries, always happy to help out another Aussie

Ahhh, no wonder you're making so much sense! Where abouts are you from?

What are your thoughts on all these algos(or whatever they're called) and computerized "Flash" trading? Does that influence an order book trader much?

 

[J Magoo]

Ahhh, no wonder you're making so much sense! Where abouts are you from?

What are your thoughts on all these algos(or whatever they're called) and computerized "Flash" trading? Does that influence an order book trader much?

From Sydney but I moved to London for trading about 3 years ago.

I absolutely hate all the algo's in the order book when i am on a bad run and losing money. It must be their fault not mine (don't ever say or think this)

haha look the honest truth is that trading the order book is a lot harder today then it was 3/5/7/10 years ago. There were lots of imbalances in the order book or trade opportunities that you just cant get at now because some clever guy has a computer clicking in with big size at the same time you recognise the opportunity...

That said, there are so many guys out there creating these programs you are starting to see these programs cannibalise eachother that there in itself creates new opportunities themselves if you know what to look for.

I think flash orders will be outlawed and the demise of Goldman Sachs will come from a court case where they are prosecuted for creating an unfair advantage across the market. until that happens im just happy being a share holder as a hedge against the money their computers take from me on a daily basis.

 

[telson]

SFL,

I agree with you regarding the utility of using the DOM/level II. I have tried many times to get the feeling of it, but my main difficulty is that I cannot see the “setups” because of the SPEED of movement. Maybe my brain/eyes are somewhat slow, maybe I have tried with ”difficult” instruments (BUND, EUROSTOXX, and let alone DAX!!).

¿Have you any recommendation to overcome this problem? (apart of playing many hours with PS3..)

Thanks

 

[timsk]

¿Have you any recommendation to overcome this problem? (apart of playing many hours with PS3..)

Hi telson,
Welcome to T2W! (I see you've been a member for a long time - but this is your first post.)
I had exactly the same problem as you. The solution (for me) is delta volume analysis which centres around T&S and presents the information in chart form which nealty gets around the problem of having to deal with a lot of numbers flashing by at high speed. It's not the Holy Grail by any means, but well worth checking out, IMO. Take a look at this thread: Orderflow Analytics any experience?
Cheers,
Tim.