Name something "Permanent"

[Triggerfish]

Perhaps pebble is communicating but in another frequency to yours.

And you know this?

How do you know it doesn't have consciousness? There are many living animals that fail the mirror test. Humans don't have self awareness until 18months as per studies.

Humans live for 100 years. Pebbles no doubt live for - at a guess million of years. Perhaps it's not 18 months yet in human years.

Are you sure pebble really "live"? You're not suggesting that pebbles have self-awareness?
Surely you can't call a pebble existence "life" and make a direct comparison to a human life? You do see a difference don't you?....that is before I even answer the above questions.

The recording does extend the memory of the voice for sure. In-case one forgets, one can playback the recording of the voice and what was spoken.

The recording material ie., the mother-in-law is inconsequential as it is her voice that is the subject matter here.

The true voice is also inconsequential as we are discussing the memory of the voice which can be retrieved either held in memory or a recording into appropriate device.

Lets say the person is still alive with a recorder, the person will speak while recording the speech.....after the speech, the recorded speech will be played. Tell me, which of these two speech is "true"?

 

[Triggerfish]

I noticed WSW87 posted something yesterday, somehow got deleted.....maybe he noticed it is not permanent.

"Hope" springs eternal

Where is eternal? and why does hope get one there in the first place?

 

[Atilla]

And you know this?

Do you know how long it takes a diamond to form?

Are you sure pebble really "live"? You're not suggesting that pebbles have self-awareness? ... why not? Do you know something that we don't and you are able to rule these considerations out as a matter of fact?
Surely you can't call a pebble existence "life" and make a direct comparison to a human life? You do see a difference don't you?....that is before I even answer the above questions. I can call it what I like? I can even shape it into a cow and worship it as my God? A living diety creator of all man kind. :smart:


Lets say the person is still alive with a recorder, the person will speak while recording the speech.....after the speech, the recorded speech will be played. Tell me, which of these two speech is "true"?

Both!

Look what I found

 

[Triggerfish]

"Am seeking to find something that (sic) which is permanent".................Why ?

The moment you open your eyes and see, everything that you can see will not be permanent.
As everything is not permanent, surely there must be an opposite.....which should be permanent.
There must be a reason/answer to why everything is not permanent.....hence seeking!

 

[Atilla]

The moment you open your eyes and see, everything that you can see will not be permanent.
As everything is not permanent, surely there must be an opposite.....which should be permanent.
There must be a reason/answer to why everything is not permanent.....hence seeking!

This is like wishing to see the end of infinity :whistling

 

[Triggerfish]

Whether it's a good thing or not, depends on from what perspective you are looking at it. For example, what your reaction is to it. The truth is good, but is only viewed as good by those who embrace it.

Your last post is very good but quite long so will be broken up in parts for further analysis in greater details.
What perspectives are available above?

Motivation is relevant to what the results will be. One can say they are motivated to look for something, but not really look that hard for it, or look for it in all the wrong places. Furthermore, one could think they are "motivated" to find something, but once they find it or see evidence of what it might be, realize they'd wished they'd never found it in the first place, since it wasn't what they wished it would be. I don't claim to know where you stand on this, and don't expect you to necessarily know either. No way for me to know where your are at in your self realization process, the same process we are all in as individuals. And if you did tell me where you stand, there would be no way to know if that was true or not until you actually find what you are looking for, and demonstrate your reaction to it.

Results.....so there will be stages here?...if so, they are?
Is this the same here under self realization?

 

[Triggerfish]

True morality is at the core of the truth and is not a human construct. Once you realize this, you can be more ready to accept truth. Only looking at things from a human standpoint hasn't resulted in the acceptance of true morality, but rather has made morality seem temporary, something that can be changed on a whim. But the true permanent morality hasn't changed. People try to change it. But just like if someone lies to everyone around them, gets everyone to believe that lie, does that make it true? No. It's still a lie. Likewise, the whole world believes lies, as I already mentioned with my "100 people in a room" illustration. The room with the 100 people stands for the world we live in. Everyone believing something different does not change what the truth is, and only proves that most people do not have it. The truth is permanent and can not be changed by what people choose to believe.

Again, morality from a human standpoint is whatever is accepted by the masses. In fact, it doesn't even need to be accepted by most people, just enough people that one can surround themselves with, in order to feel comfortable.

Human standpoint.....can you please clarify if it is not the human standpoint, then what standpoint will that be?

 

[Mr. Charts]

The moment you open your eyes and see, everything that you can see will not be permanent.
WRONG, WHY EVERYTHING? I SEE THE UNIVERSE WHICH IS PERMANENTLY CHANGING .THAT ITSELF DEGRADES THE VALIDITY AND APPLICATION OF THE WORD
As everything is not permanent, surely theremust be an opposite.....which should be permanent.WHY SHOULD EVERYTHING HAVE AN OPPOSITE? OR DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT MATTER AND ANTI MATTER RESULT IN ANNIHILATION? THAT IS PATENTLY UNTRUE.

There must be a reason/answer to why everything is not permanent....hence seeking
FALSE PREMISE AS JUST BECAUSE YOU CANNOT FIND"PERMANENCE" YOU ASSUME IT DOESN'T EXIST.
IN ANY CASE, SINCE TIME ITSELF CAN BE DISTORTED YOUR CONCEPT OF BOTH PERMANENCE AND IMPERMANENCE CANNOT BE CORRECT, OR AT LEAST INCOMPLETE

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

I noticed WSW87 posted something yesterday, somehow got deleted.....maybe he noticed it is not permanent.

It was unconditional love, for a child/grandchild, no matter what they do, you will always love them.

This is not to be confused with hating.

This only applies to where love exists in the first place, as it will not always be present in some mothers and fathers, but this is another matter.

So hows that?

- In life until death (which you seem to suggest is the point in concern), unconditional love will remain until death.

Unconditional love is permanent.

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

The reason for the deletion was that I realised only those whom experience unconditional love will truly understand. So may not be relevant to everyone.

 

[Atilla]

It was unconditional love, for a child/grandchild, no matter what they do, you will always love them.

This is not to be confused with hating.

This only applies to where love exists in the first place, as it will not always be present in some mothers and fathers, but this is another matter.

So hows that?

- In life until death (which you seem to suggest is the point in concern), unconditional love will remain until death.

Unconditional love is permanent.

What if they carry out a heinous crime against humanity?

All love is conditional imho.

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

What if they carry out a heinous crime against humanity?

All love is conditional imho.

That is why I say hating is another issue. More about morality then.

Your child is your child no matter what.

That's why I deleted the post at first, as it then becomes opinion based.

I dont agree that all love is conditional, not blood related, only love through choice is conditional, again IMHO.

 

[Triggerfish]

People can still change their lives without knowing the truth. People can also be sincere with limited knowledge of true morality. But what I am saying is that the truth, which is permanent and doesn't change, if it becomes known and accepted, will cause one to make more changes than they never would have thought necessary or possible.

So to "know" true morality would be to go beyond human standpoint here?.....and anything below this is limited knowledge of it as you have stated?
So does knowing true morality means one also knows the truth here at this point?
What sort of changes are we talking about here?

Truth can be known without being accepted. You can know something is bad for your health, but do it anyway. Does no good to know the truth if you cannot accept it which involves living by it. What's more, it can be terrifying to someone, even to get a glimpse of the truth, and see all of the changes that it would mean would be necessary for them if they accepted it. So, many avoid it at all costs. Spending their whole life running away from it, and ridiculing anyone who tries to show it to them. But most of the time they are pretty comfortable, since they surround themselves with people who feel the same way. Easy to ignore important questions, when everyone else around you is doing the same thing…

So one could know the truth but can also reject it by not accepting it?.....surely one who has the truth has it permanently and if you were to reject it, does that mean it can be rejected so one does not have the truth any more. Is this what you mean?.....if this is the case then truth cannot be permanent here.....please clarify.

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

Apart from that - I would say that the constant supply of threads that are created in the future, that avoid actually having anything productive to help improve a trader's development is as permanent as you can get :cheesy:

 

[aliasentric]

Triggerfish - I responded all in one post, but if you need to break it up again, feel free...

What perspectives are available?

What I meant was, whether you view the truth as good or not depends on your perspective or reaction to it. But one's view or reaction doesn't change the truth, or the value of it, or whether it is good or not. The truth will always be permanently good. But only those who know, accept and embrace it will be able to appreciate it as such.

Results.....so there will be stages here?...if so, they are?
Is this the same here under self realization?

By stages, I assume you are asking if there are progressive levels so to speak. There are primarily 3 stages or levels.

1) Is a person Hungry enough for the truth to put forth the effort to find and understand it?
2) Is a person Honest enough to accept the truth, and not continue to lie to themselves
3) Is a person Humble enough to submit to changes that the truth requires?

So, these are like self-realization categories as no one really knows where they stand with these levels until they test them against the truth. Many will try to find what is permanent without passing these levels/stages, which is not of any lasting benefit to them since it won't result in finding something permanent but would prevent them from looking beyond what is temporary.

Human standpoint.....can you please clarify if it is not the human standpoint, then what standpoint will that be?

It is at the very heart of what is permanent, because not only is it permanent but it is the source of everything permanent. Which again calls to mind the reason why few people can see what is permanent, because they don't recognize the source of what is permanent. If one ignores or dismisses the source of what is permanent, one cannot see or benefit from what ever that source produces that is permanent, as they ignore that too. But if you accept and submit to the source, then you will see that what is permanent is not limited to just one thing, but is an infinite number of things.

So to "know" true morality would be to go beyond human standpoint here?.....

Yes

and anything below this is limited knowledge of it as you have stated?

Yes

So does knowing true morality means one also knows the truth here at this point?

Yes, but as I mentioned before, just knowing the truth won't necessarily benefit someone, unless they also accept and live their lives by it.

What sort of changes are we talking about here?

It depends on each individual. For most people, there are many changes, and it is not something that is done all at once, but it is progressive. Usually, at first there are a few big changes to make, followed by progressive changes that continue over time. Even after accepting the truth, there will be daily tests of one's adherence to it. Every day one is in danger of losing what is permanent and focusing only on what is temporary. Only if one continues to progressively understand the truth will one keep one's hold on what is permanent and not revert back to what is temporary.

But I would suggest focusing on stages 1 and 2 first, since many focus on stage 3 before completing stages 1 and 2, then what happens is this: They failed to acquire or develop the hunger and honesty necessary to perpetuate their motivation. So, they give up as they are more comfortable with what is temporary.

True morality is not always comfortable, but the reward is priceless and permanent.

So one could know the truth but can also reject it by not accepting it?.....surely one who has the truth has it permanently and if you were to reject it, does that mean it can be rejected so one does not have the truth any more. Is this what you mean?.....if this is the case then truth cannot be permanent here.....please clarify.

Truth can be rejected by anyone, and is rejected by most people. This is proven by the fact that there are so many conflicting beliefs in the world. Rejecting the truth does not change it, though. Believing a lie does not negate the truth. You can do nothing against the truth but only for the truth, in that you cannot change it or get rid of it. In fact, exposing the truth eliminates lies. So, lies can be eliminated.

But if you expose the truth, and someone chooses to believe the lie, does it eliminate the truth? No. It's still the truth and will always be the truth. But if you expose the truth, and someone stops believing the lie because of the truth, then you have confirmed the permanence of the truth. You have also confirmed the temporary nature of the lie, in that it can be eliminated.

The truth cannot be changed, because if you think you have changed it, you really have't changed anything, but exchanged the truth for a lie, but what had been the truth remains unchanged. Lies change all the time, and when they do change, they are still lies, hence lies are not permanent. Only the truth is permanent.

 

[Triggerfish]

Nobody is sure The Universe is permanent even. It may start receding into a Great Crunch.

Strangely it looks like it is speeding up as it expands. So it will either dissipate into nothing or have mini crunches into parallel universes.

A very interesting point underlined here so therefore it is not a closed system.
So would it be fair to say the expansion is an effect.....if so, what is causing it? Did they call it dark matter.....that's another concept isn't it.
If we do not see the cause, the effects cannot be stopped......everything has a cause, right?
Thoughts?

 

[Triggerfish]

why not? Do you know something that we don't and you are able to rule these considerations out as a matter of fact?

It doesn't matter what I know, it is what you understand that matters most.
There is a saying:

One cannot see beyond what one cannot understand.

So you see, we are all bound by our own understanding.....the question is, are we even aware of it, if not, then how can changes be made to improve ourself?
There are examples here in this very thread to prove this point. This is the kind of stuff people really don't want to hear!

I can call it what I like? I can even shape it into a cow and worship it as my God? A living diety creator of all man kind.

Yes, you certainly can.....no one can stop you here. But here is a thing for you, is the person aware of what one is doing and based on which perspective?

Both!

Interesting response.
So what do you say about when you look at a mirror, would that mean there is another Atilla?
What about looking on a ponds reflection of the moon, does that mean there are now 2 moons?
Watching a movie is a good one too, are we really looking at real actors here or is it just a still image.....its all just a magic trick isn't it.....an illusion!.....for the mind!

 

[Triggerfish]

This is like wishing to see the end of infinity

Saying infinity doesn't make it a fact. It is just an illusion.

 

[Giovan]

Conclusion: as long as you can perceive it, its not gonna be permanent

 

[neil]

So what.....!!

Saying infinity doesn't make it a fact. It is just an illusion.

Does it really matter; does anyone give a toss!
Let's all go for a pint