Name something "Permanent"

[Triggerfish]

Illusory? Well, you're here as a physical being aren't you and you must have sprung from your mothers womb. That is a provable fact and something which we call birth. In due course, you will cease to function as a living entity and that is something which we call death. When that time comes it will be an equally provable fact. In terms of the physical living entity that you were, you will remain dead permanently whatever might become of the molecules that have combined to build you as you are.

This will depend on ones definition of what that "YOU" is?
Interesting thoughts.....yet all agreeable.....there is a saying: "seeing is believing". Surely, a believe isn't a fact. What we see is only on the surface, yet we never question them and take them as facts. Just like the markets, they too have the same essence.
I just wonder if one can go "deeper" than the surface?.....and see if there is anything to be found or understand?
Just because something not seen doesn't mean it isn't there.....A dark cave may be dark, we can't see anything with our eyes doesn't mean there is no large diamond inside. We just need a light to see beyond the surface!

Maybe the universe, our world and the life on it is just a giant illusion - in which case your initial question has no meaning.

This is an interesting statement especially the former part.....but it would appear you have jumped to conclusions in the latter bit.....pity!
Morpheus from the film Matrix noted the following:

Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

Furthermore, Morpheus didn't call it an illusion, he calls it a dream:

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?

If one is IN a dream, one isn't aware one is inside a dream UNTIL one wakes up!.....Maybe something to "think" about!

 

[Triggerfish]

I think therefore I am .... an illusion???

One who thinks but doesn't know who is thinking calls himself I am.

Yet the cup which is on the table doesn't think itself as a cup.....yet we call it a cup? So is there such a thing as a cup?

 

[Atilla]

well, death is a pretty permanent state in my book - once I'm gone, I'm gone forever.

To me death is very temporary indeed. Fleeting moment - a second or so of letting go.

Life is far more ever lasting and has a degree of permanence as opposed to death.

I know this may sound strange and I appreciate the thread and definitions but such is life in contrast to death. :idea:

 

[Atilla]

Can you name something that is permanent? Something that last forever? :!:
Am seeking to find something that which is permanent, is it possible?

"Permanent" definition is:
"lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely"

Question is one of the relationship between permanence and forever and thus can't be proven! This is like the relationship between water and fire.

Forever, has time attached to it which is change in itself and thus negates permanence imo.

Only thing that comes to mind is 'time' but I can't see how change can be considered permanent.

I give up. :whistling

 

[wackypete2]

This will depend on ones definition of what that "YOU" is?
Interesting thoughts.....yet all agreeable.....there is a saying: "seeing is believing". Surely, a believe isn't a fact. What we see is only on the surface, yet we never question them and take them as facts. Just like the markets, they too have the same essence.
I just wonder if one can go "deeper" than the surface?.....and see if there is anything to be found or understand?
Just because something not seen doesn't mean it isn't there.....A dark cave may be dark, we can't see anything with our eyes doesn't mean there is no large diamond inside. We just need a light to see beyond the surface!

This is an interesting statement especially the former part.....but it would appear you have jumped to conclusions in the latter bit.....pity!
Morpheus from the film Matrix noted the following:

Furthermore, Morpheus didn't call it an illusion, he calls it a dream:

If one is IN a dream, one isn't aware one is inside a dream UNTIL one wakes up!.....Maybe something to "think" about!

COMPLETELY false statement. You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. You quote the Matrix like it was fact. WTF?? You are nothing but a windup.




Peter

 

[aliasentric]

Can you name something that is permanent? Something that last forever? :!:
Am seeking to find something that which is permanent, is it possible?

"Permanent" definition is:
"lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely"

Why are you looking for this, I might ask? Are you trying to prove it doesn't exist?

But I do know things that will last forever.

And I do know things that will never change.

Morality and truth will never change. People's views change, but it doesn't change what is moral and what is true. Those standards and principles have been defined since before man came into existence and will never change. Laws change. But the principles that morality and truth are based on will never change.

An example most of us should be actually able to agree on - If someone just decided they can kill people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Just because they like to kill. This is wrong. Any sane person would agree that a serious principle has been violated, and any person guilty of such killing should be punished in some way. The principle here is to respect human life. That is a principle that will never change. How each individual understands and obeys or disobeys this principle is debatable, but the principle nonetheless does not change.

People can argue their views, and try to justify them in front of everybody, but it will never change the truth. Almost everyone in the world does not agree on what truth is. There is so much confusion, that some think it is not even possible to find the truth. That in itself proves that most of the people alive today do not know the truth, since truth does not contradict itself. Some believe in God. Some do not believe in him. Even those who do believe in him teach conflicting ideas about who he is.

He either is or is not. Cannot have it both ways. If he does exist, there is truth about him, the same as there is truth about you or me. So, all the beliefs about him cannot be true. If you find the truth about God's existence, then you will have found something permanent.

Truth is permanent, and never changes. Just because people choose to believe whatever they want to, does not change the truth. Just because people claim that there is no way to actually prove something, doesn't negate the truthfulness of it.

An example: Can you prove there is wind? You cannot see it. But you can see and feel the effects of it. Likewise, there are many things that some choose not to see, or choose to ignore the effects of, but will never be able to eliminate the existence of.

 

[Triggerfish]

Human stupidity.

As evidenced by Einstein's famous quotation.

Genius has it's limitations but stupidity knows no bounds.

Good thinking but.....Human stupidity is only a state of mind, for most, it can change over time and progressed. For some, it remains constant.....due to conditions. Saying what it is but does not understand the cause is the same as saying birth and death are true.....bounded by words, that is limitation at its best.
As the state of mind can change, it is therefore not permanent.

Was it not Einstein who also said the following which maybe more relevant to this thread:

Talent hits the target others cannot hit; genius hits the target others cannot see!

 

[Triggerfish]

Question is one of the relationship between permanence and forever and thus can't be proven! This is like the relationship between water and fire.

Forever, has time attached to it which is change in itself and thus negates permanence imo.

Only thing that comes to mind is 'time' but I can't see how change can be considered permanent.

I give up. :whistling

Well, that's like saying if one cannot see something it means there is nothing there.....am sure you will agree with me, there is something called ignorance. Something which is not known doesn't mean it can't be known.
On the subject of water and fire, water is subject to constant change and fire cannot exist on its own as it depends on cause and conditions.
Yet to our knowledge, everything appears to be temporary.....

Time is like a fourth dimension where any object has a time limit for existence.....yet this time that we know of, as tick-tock time is a fabrication of our human concept. If removed, existence still has the same fate.

So why existence in the first place?

 

[Triggerfish]

COMPLETELY false statement. You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. You quote the Matrix like it was fact. WTF?? You are nothing but a windup.

Peter

One should try to engage "brain" rather than "react".

 

[Triggerfish]

Why are you looking for this, I might ask? Are you trying to prove it doesn't exist?

I have realized that everything in life is only temporary.....so am looking for something which is permanent. Surely its a good thing?
If one cannot find it, surely that cannot be taken as prove it doesn't exist.

But I do know things that will last forever.
And I do know things that will never change.

Morality and truth will never change. People's views change, but it doesn't change what is moral and what is true. Those standards and principles have been defined since before man came into existence and will never change. Laws change. But the principles that morality and truth are based on will never change.

Surely if people's views change then morality must also change as views depends on it. Yet views are different per individuals so what happens when they meet, they will have different views, hence no meeting of minds. So does that not mean views are subjective and can change?
If views do change then it isn't permanent so this should also apply to morality.....does it not?

An example most of us should be actually able to agree on - If someone just decided they can kill people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Just because they like to kill. This is wrong. Any sane person would agree that a serious principle has been violated, and any person guilty of such killing should be punished in some way. The principle here is to respect human life. That is a principle that will never change. How each individual understands and obeys or disobeys this principle is debatable, but the principle nonetheless does not change.

Well, that depends on the definition of what "respect" is. Is the modern day society as ideal example right now?

People can argue their views, and try to justify them in front of everybody, but it will never change the truth. Almost everyone in the world does not agree on what truth is. There is so much confusion, that some think it is not even possible to find the truth. That in itself proves that most of the people alive today do not know the truth, since truth does not contradict itself. Some believe in God. Some do not believe in him. Even those who do believe in him teach conflicting ideas about who he is.

He either is or is not. Cannot have it both ways. If he does exist, there is truth about him, the same as there is truth about you or me. So, all the beliefs about him cannot be true. If you find the truth about God's existence, then you will have found something permanent.

Truth is permanent, and never changes. Just because people choose to believe whatever they want to, does not change the truth. Just because people claim that there is no way to actually prove something, doesn't negate the truthfulness of it.

If truth is permanent, surely it must be found first rather than believing in others that there is truth. A believe isn't a fact.....so I guess we need to know what it is. do we not?
So are you suggesting that you have "found" the truth? and it is permanent? then I will be very interested and my ears are open.

An example: Can you prove there is wind? You cannot see it. But you can see and feel the effects of it. Likewise, there are many things that some choose not to see, or choose to ignore the effects of, but will never be able to eliminate the existence of.

Interesting.....the invisible ones.

 

[Atilla]

Well, that's like saying if one cannot see something it means there is nothing there.....am sure you will agree with me, there is something called ignorance. Something which is not known doesn't mean it can't be known.

The other side of your argument above - by the same token creating a concepts like time and permanence doesn't mean they exist.

On the subject of water and fire, water is subject to constant change and fire cannot exist on its own as it depends on cause and conditions.

Agreed. Fire needs fuel and oxygen as water needs the right conditions to exist. However, none of these are stable and equally depend on their environments. So does/can fire really exist with any permanence?

The same principal can be applied to all other elements and thus the answer is no permanence.

Yet to our knowledge, everything appears to be temporary..... Perhaps that is because everything is temporary and nothing is permanent. Why be a salmon?

Time is like a fourth dimension where any object has a time limit for existence.....yet this time that we know of, as tick-tock time is a fabrication of our human concept. If removed, existence still has the same fate.

without concept of time or delta time the ability to measure any change is futile as one has nothing else to compare it to.

In the absence of these abstract creations by man such as; god, time and x y z etc., including state of permanence, discussion without reference to change / time / delta choose which ever concept one desires - is also futile. This is the point I was trying to make.

So why existence in the first place?

A 1000 ton rock can be in permanent existence to the naked eye from Snowdonia . However, to a martian on planet pluto it's moving.

By similar anology it is so far removed from the green martian's concept as to not even exist at all.

I don't need to know God as I know my parents and grandparents and heard about my great grand parents.

At least I think I know who they are :cheesy:

 

[hungcable]

death

Jesus??

 

[Shakone]

I define the set A as follows:

A={all objects that are "lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely"}

Job done.

Every element of A is now permanent according to definition.

 

[Pondlifedregsbutler]

Brown wings, once you'z got them,you'z got em. I will never getz em.

 

[scholfield]

Brown wings, once you'z got them,you'z got em. I will never getz em.

Not with that attitude!

 

[Triggerfish]

Perhaps that is because everything is temporary and nothing is permanent.

Yes....but why? Why is that? Surely there must be an answer for that.....? There must be an answer for everything? surely.

without concept of time or delta time the ability to measure any change is futile as one has nothing else to compare it to.

Maybe we don't need to measure change! I think its more to do with the reasons behind it rather than measure or compare.

Now since we are on the issue of time, if we remove this so called time, things will operate normally without it. So whatever that is operating does not depend on time. Things will happen because it will happen but more importantly.....why? and where does it come from? What caused it? (everything has a cause.....right) Surely there is an answer for that too?

There can't be anything that is un-caused, can it?

 

[Pondlifedregsbutler]

Not with that attitude!

I shall never partake in such activities

 

[scholfield]

I shall never partake in such activities

ffs. 'Kinnel, Bud. Mate. Get you nut in the game.

 

[Triggerfish]

I define the set A as follows:

A={all objects that are "lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely"}

Job done.

Every element of A is now permanent according to definition.

Am not sure physical objects here can last or become permanent.....you need to do better than that.....do you have a name for the object/s in mind? Formulas are of no use here.

 

[Pondlifedregsbutler]

ffs. 'Kinnel, Bud. Mate. Get you nut in the game.

Look son, I'll kin well biff you if you keep on you whopper, kinell