Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

Well I don't particularly disagree with anything in your last post:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/eco...is/133422-keynes-vs-hayek-95.html#post1957442

However, the ethics or causes of war are not the question I was asking.
I am referring purely to the ability to pay for war.
Gold standard in the modern era is impractical in times of war.
That was the main point of my post:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/eco...is/133422-keynes-vs-hayek-95.html#post1957346
You say as much in the post I refer to:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/eco...is/133422-keynes-vs-hayek-92.html#post1957148



That is my question, summarised below:

War is a constant in history, and will be in the future.
Gold standard can not be maintained in times of war.
That is the primary weakness of the gold standard.

In other words a gold standard system does not suit all conditions.

In modern history, a fiat system has pretty much always been adopted to pay for a war.
Note that does not mean I think fiat systems are perfect.
What are you thoughts on that?

I do understand your position. I am simply leading up to an answer. The topic that you raise does not have a simple, glib, 1 line answer. War incorporates an ethical component, which I have initially considered in the previous post.

Monopoly:
Under a monopoly, the supply of goods and services is reduced, while the cost of said goods and services rises. This fact is starkly apparent across all the Socialist Western governments that seek to expropriate as much of the capitalist systems generated wealth. Their profligacy and incompetence however are gradually killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

From the true monopoly of government we can move to the fallacy of the ‘monopoly price’.

The model relies on an assumption that is untrue, thus any deduced conclusions are false. This is the assumption that in the market there is a discernible, identifiable competitive price. From this assumption flows the identification of the monopoly price.

Thus the critical question is that at P1, does there exist a competitive price or a monopoly price? The authors are working on the assumption that it is a monopoly price. The truth of the matter is that there is no way of knowing. Contrary to the assumptions of the theory, there is no competitive price which is clearly established somewhere, and to which we can compare P1.

In this diagram increased demand is postulated. From the diagram, an increase in demand at AR2, is shown to increase profits due to a higher price and output at P2, Q2. The truth of this depends upon a perfect inelasticity of the demand curve.

Even if I were to to waive all the difficulties of discovering and identifying a demand curve [and this can only be done by the producer in a tentative manner] the price, if accurately established, will be set by the seller, so that the demand curve above P1 [our original monopoly price] will be elastic, thus assuming perfect inelasticity is an error, and false.

Now let me suppose that the producer decides that only producing Q1 rather than Q2 and thus lowering his marginal costs, that he will make more money as he can still sell at P2, does this signify a monopoly price? Could it not be argued reasonably that the price attained at P2 is rather the movement from a subcompetitive price to a competitive market price? In the real world, the demand curve is not simply handed to the producer, but must be estimated and discovered. Our producer really has no idea whether these prices are subcompetitive, competitive or monopoly. As we have already disposed of the authors original definition, viz. sole producer, I can assert this to be true.

Let’s examine ‘democracy’ as a monopoly, which it actually is:

Monopoly as an analytic a priori proposition: monopoly is an entity [institution] that exists in the absence of any market competition.

Defining ‘monopoly’ as an institution that can as a producer of goods and services [within its market], raise revenues through the restriction of supply: this is and must be due to an inelastic demand curve.

To gain a monopoly position, all competition must be eliminated. Free market mechanisms cannot succeed, nor be utilised to eliminate competition, as free market mechanisms rely upon ‘out competing’ the competition through ‘lower price, higher quality’ or a combination of the two. With ‘free entry’ to the ‘market’ as ‘profit margins rise’ due to an expansion of market share, or product dominance, competitors are attracted to the high returns available, particularly if the demand curve has areas of inelasticity.

Legal mechanisms can be utilised, as they rely upon an outside agency to provide the coercive power required to exclude all and any competition. Thus the only true monopolies are monopolies that exist under conditions of coercion. These monopolies will only possess monopoly power or advantage in an area where they have the support of the coercive power.

The ‘other’ way that monopoly area of influence, or market share can be gained is through the direct use of coercion, or physical force [or the threat of] against any and all competition. Assuming success, the institution then controls the market or territory that they can defend from other potential or actual monopolists.

We now have an area that supports say 100 monopolists, each with a territory that has an inelastic demand curve for our institutions goods and services, which happen to be quite similar in our 100 firms. As ‘competition’ is prohibited, legal power resides with each individual monopolist, the only method to remaining to drive expansion of territorial control and hence an expansion in revenues is through ‘war’.

Of course this is exactly the situation of the ‘State’ which historically consisted of ‘Kings’ and now are ‘governments’. There are some very important differences between the two forms of the ‘State’ however, as far as ‘government’ expansion is concerned, there are only two ways that they can expand their market share, direct war, or the threat of war, resulting in Imperialism.

Through history the theory of monopoly can be seen to drive the ever shrinking number of ‘States’ into ever larger territorial areas that are exploited by monopoly government. There have been stunning reversals, the Soviet Empire imploded of course, but the historical dialectic has been towards consolidation through war and aggression. The inelastic demand curve is inelastic as of course it is 100% coerced. The revenues generated are called ‘tax’.

Monopoly through coercion has a logical conclusion: one world government. Steps have of course been underway for a long time towards this ‘ideal’ using the fiat currency as the primary weapon. Bretton Woods saw the hegemony of the US. drive the implementation of the US dollar as the ‘world reserve’ currency, much as prior to WWI Britain held the unofficial world reserve currency.

The point? The point is this: fiat money provides government with a monopoly on money. It is this monopoly which allows the expropriation of the electorate, which funds governments expansionary dreams.

jog on
duc
 
Didn't upload the charts.
 

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Fair argument, and as far as an aggressor in war is concerned, there are many
historical cases to back up your point.
So I agree from the point of view of an aggressor.

In the case of a country defending itself from an aggressor, none of that
provides an answer as to why a fiat system is adopted in times of war.
That is what I am driving at, the UK for instance in WW2 sold most of its gold
and ditched the gold standard in favour of fiat, simply to pay its war bills.
What other option is there to finance defence?
Defence of a country from an aggressor does not involve empire building or population control.
In those circumstances, there is no other choice.

That is the weakness of the gold standard I refer to.
 
Fair argument, and as far as an aggressor in war is concerned, there are many
historical cases to back up your point.
So I agree from the point of view of an aggressor.

In the case of a country defending itself from an aggressor, none of that
provides an answer as to why a fiat system is adopted in times of war.
That is what I am driving at, the UK for instance in WW2 sold most of its gold
and ditched the gold standard in favour of fiat, simply to pay its war bills.
What other option is there to finance defence?
Defence of a country from an aggressor does not involve empire building or population control.
In those circumstances, there is no other choice.

That is the weakness of the gold standard I refer to.

I will write a post in response, and addressing directly your issues raised. I'll work on it, along with the various other arguments that this thread involves, time is becoming a bit of an issue.

jog on
duc
 
Continuing...



First let me just correct an omission: in addition to the expansion/contraction of the money/credit supply, the demand for money by individuals must also be considered.

Yep agreed, lazy of me not listing all S & Ds. Supply of Money has a Demand side too. I'm not the old parrot I used to be ;) . However, the point remains that you're definition of deflation is a limited one.

Returning to your explanation, what if prices rose, given existing supply/demand? I agree that if you vary supply/demand, you will vary prices. Your analysis cannot account for a change in prices, with a given demand/supply. A change in the money supply however can.

Yes it can. If consumers feel confident about the future they will bring purchase plans forward. Vice-er-versa with pessimistic outlook if uncertainty and job losses on horizon. This is the frequency of exchange or economic activity factor.

Similarly if firms cut back on goods and services production or increase in productivity.

This is the problem with monetarists view. They are simply one sided and totally ignore demand side fiscal economics and rely far too heavy on Ms management as holding key to everything.


As such, a fall in prices due to increased production, with a given demand, will result in lower prices. This, by my definition, is not deflation.

Not by yours. Why not? How do you account for years of deflation in Japan whilst having economic growth and continued productivity increase and output? Would you not say price of money increases as output increases - if Ms remains the same. People simply spend more.




And why, would it lead to an increased market share by your analysis?

Displace competitor product. eg Japanese cars and let's say Casio watches. Far better products produced cheaper.


This is Irving Fischer's M*V = P*T, correct?

Yep looks like it. Was a long time ago but has stayed with me - making sense out of a lot of rubbish that's out there coming from ultra monetarists.

jog on
duc


To be clear - are you saying inflation and deflation can only be caused by changes in the demand and supply of money?

If so, assuming all else remains the same how would you explain increase in output of goods & services or increased level of economic activity be financed?
 
Returning to your explanation, what if prices rose, given existing supply/demand? I agree that if you vary supply/demand, you will vary prices. Your analysis cannot account for a change in prices, with a given demand/supply. A change in the money supply however can.


Yes it can. If consumers feel confident about the future they will bring purchase plans forward. Vice-er-versa with pessimistic outlook if uncertainty and job losses on horizon. This is the frequency of exchange or economic activity factor.

Which is a change in demand, through bringing it forward in time.


Similarly if firms cut back on goods and services production or increase in productivity.

Which is a change in supply.

This is the problem with monetarists view. They are simply one sided and totally ignore demand side fiscal economics and rely far too heavy on Ms management as holding key to everything.

Well I wouldn't classify myself as a "monetarist." Fiscal policies still rely on changing the supply of money.

As such, a fall in prices due to increased production, with a given demand, will result in lower prices. This, by my definition, is not deflation.

Not by yours. Why not? How do you account for years of deflation in Japan whilst having economic growth and continued productivity increase and output? Would you not say price of money increases as output increases - if Ms remains the same. People simply spend more.

Because, you have changed the supply, with a given demand. Prices will adjust. That is not however due to a change in the quantity of money.

This is not given either as improved productivity is likely to lead to increased market share and displacing of competitors goods and services.


And why, would it lead to an increased market share by your analysis?


Displace competitor product. eg Japanese cars and let's say Casio watches. Far better products produced cheaper.

Products that are produced more cheaply, can, charge the consumer a lower price, for the same quality, or better. Higher productivity, leads, with a given demand, to lower prices. Lower prices, with a given demand, increase market share, especially if it is a superior product.

This is Irving Fischer's M*V = P*T, correct?

Yep looks like it. Was a long time ago but has stayed with me - making sense out of a lot of rubbish that's out there coming from ultra monetarists.

I hate to be the one to pop your balloon, but the M*V = P*T has some serious, probably fatal errors.

To be clear - are you saying inflation and deflation can only be caused by changes in the demand and supply of money?

Changes in the volume of money and credit supplied, combined with the elasticity of the demand for money.

If so, assuming all else remains the same how would you explain increase in output of goods & services or increased level of economic activity be financed?

Capitalists provide the wherewithal, saved goods, to allow the production of goods that take time. The more advanced the goods, the longer the production process. Therefore, the “profit” is the discounted value of present value as against the time taken to produce the goods in question.

jog on
duc
 
For the Shak,

Humans, act, displaying intentional behaviour.

Humans act purposefully, constrained by time. The nature of time necessitates that purposefully acting requires a choice be made. Choosing necessitates that one "thing" be preferred over another "thing."

As no objections were raised to the previous post...

Choosing one "thing" over another "thing" necessitates a valuation. The "thing" more highly valued being chosen over the "thing" less valued.

jog on
duc
 
I apologize. I was being flippant. Again, I would be happy to come back to that discussion.

Indeed, I must have missed it...

Easily done in a thread this long. That's fine, we'll postpone the discussion till later.



But, hold on, we're talking about Bob's case having now gone to the Supreme Court. There can be no competing, non-affiliated courts at this level of the hirearchy... To quote Highlander, there can be only one. Furthermore, what is stopping a private entity from taking over the Supreme Court, just like they are able to do with the lower courts?

Essentially nothing. All that needs to be looked at is how the various Judges are compensated. We know that they all originate from Lower Courts. Simply tie their compensation to the Lower Court. The fee's from the Supreme Court simply are donated to various charities.



I am not sure I can see that as clearly as yourself. Suppose the insurance companies collude to form a cartel, such that no new "just" insurance company may enter the industry? At any rate, this is not really relevant to the current discussion.

With free entry to the market, new competitors can enter. Again, if they offer a better service, they will gain market share. There are all manner of "arbitration" services that can pre-empt any move to the Courts. It really wouldn't be a problem.

They are important, inasmuch that they are a necessary condition for a viable functioning society. However, and this is the key point I am trying to convey here, a set of principles, no matter how noble and just, cannot be a sufficient condition.

If it is "necessary" then it must be "sufficient."

Right, let me reiterate, so that we can establish a proper context. I live in a town that predates me.

Check.


I own some property and I decide to build a nuclear waste treatment plant on this property.

Check.

Let's say I have built it and it started operating.

Why would you just build it, invest the capital, without first ensuring that there would be no objections? A nuclear plant is hardly non-controversial.



The other residents object and take me to court on the grounds that I am violating their property rights.

Check.



You agreed, if I am not mistaken, that the expected "just" outcome in such a case is that I am forced to shut down (and dismantle my plant).

I said that the plaintiffs would need to demonstrate and prove that their property rights were being violated. It would not suffice just to "not like it."


Is this not an example of how, in this particular case, my fundamental right to private property is superseded?

No. Your property right, is only a valid right, in that it does not violate another's valid property right.



Furthermore, let's imagine an alternative universe, where I am living in a total wilderness.

Ok.



In this other universe, I would be able to build and operate my nuclear plant to my heart's content.

Correct. You are violating no other's valid property rights.


So is it incorrect to conclude that external circumstances (where I reside, etc) actually determine whether my fundamental right to private property is effective and can be exercised or not?

It is incorrect. The causation are property rights. If you can prove that your nuclear plant does not violate any valid property rights, you can build, irrespective of location.

No no, this isn't what I am suggesting at all.

I'll have to check back to the original to what this actually refers.

jog on
duc
 
Again, I'll post from time to time just to check I've understood fully what you're saying.

Humans some of the time make voluntary actions, and when doing so they do it with intent. When acting purposefully they are constrained by time. So some of the time, they are constrained by time, since they're not always acting purposefully.

The nature of time necessitates that purposefully acting requires a choice be made. Choosing necessitates that one "thing" be preferred over another "thing."

Choosing one "thing" over another "thing" necessitates a valuation. The "thing" more highly valued being chosen over the "thing" less valued.

We're including nothing as a 'thing' then, yes? Else if there is only one 'thing' available, then we are not choosing. And 'everything' is a 'thing then too. i.e. if we are wanting food, and there is an apple and an orange, then apple is a thing, orange is a thing, apple+orange (everything there) is a thing and nothing is a thing. Half an orange is a thing, half an apple is a thing, a quarter, a tenth, we have infinite "things" here then to value from two basic items.

Ok, now this choice and valuation is a function of : the person, time, the situation of the person, etc..

And so the value is dynamic and subjective, yes? And this all applies some of the time.

Please confirm or clarify.
 
I do understand your position. I am simply leading up to an answer. The topic that you raise does not have a simple, glib, 1 line answer. War incorporates an ethical component, which I have initially considered in the previous post.

Monopoly:
Under a monopoly, the supply of goods and services is reduced, while the cost of said goods and services rises. This fact is starkly apparent across all the Socialist Western governments that seek to expropriate as much of the capitalist systems generated wealth. Their profligacy and incompetence however are gradually killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

From the true monopoly of government we can move to the fallacy of the ‘monopoly price’.

The model relies on an assumption that is untrue, thus any deduced conclusions are false. This is the assumption that in the market there is a discernible, identifiable competitive price. From this assumption flows the identification of the monopoly price.

Thus the critical question is that at P1, does there exist a competitive price or a monopoly price? The authors are working on the assumption that it is a monopoly price. The truth of the matter is that there is no way of knowing. Contrary to the assumptions of the theory, there is no competitive price which is clearly established somewhere, and to which we can compare P1.

In this diagram increased demand is postulated. From the diagram, an increase in demand at AR2, is shown to increase profits due to a higher price and output at P2, Q2. The truth of this depends upon a perfect inelasticity of the demand curve.

Even if I were to to waive all the difficulties of discovering and identifying a demand curve [and this can only be done by the producer in a tentative manner] the price, if accurately established, will be set by the seller, so that the demand curve above P1 [our original monopoly price] will be elastic, thus assuming perfect inelasticity is an error, and false.

Now let me suppose that the producer decides that only producing Q1 rather than Q2 and thus lowering his marginal costs, that he will make more money as he can still sell at P2, does this signify a monopoly price? Could it not be argued reasonably that the price attained at P2 is rather the movement from a subcompetitive price to a competitive market price? In the real world, the demand curve is not simply handed to the producer, but must be estimated and discovered. Our producer really has no idea whether these prices are subcompetitive, competitive or monopoly. As we have already disposed of the authors original definition, viz. sole producer, I can assert this to be true.

Let’s examine ‘democracy’ as a monopoly, which it actually is:

Monopoly as an analytic a priori proposition: monopoly is an entity [institution] that exists in the absence of any market competition.

Defining ‘monopoly’ as an institution that can as a producer of goods and services [within its market], raise revenues through the restriction of supply: this is and must be due to an inelastic demand curve.

To gain a monopoly position, all competition must be eliminated. Free market mechanisms cannot succeed, nor be utilised to eliminate competition, as free market mechanisms rely upon ‘out competing’ the competition through ‘lower price, higher quality’ or a combination of the two. With ‘free entry’ to the ‘market’ as ‘profit margins rise’ due to an expansion of market share, or product dominance, competitors are attracted to the high returns available, particularly if the demand curve has areas of inelasticity.

Legal mechanisms can be utilised, as they rely upon an outside agency to provide the coercive power required to exclude all and any competition. Thus the only true monopolies are monopolies that exist under conditions of coercion. These monopolies will only possess monopoly power or advantage in an area where they have the support of the coercive power.

The ‘other’ way that monopoly area of influence, or market share can be gained is through the direct use of coercion, or physical force [or the threat of] against any and all competition. Assuming success, the institution then controls the market or territory that they can defend from other potential or actual monopolists.

We now have an area that supports say 100 monopolists, each with a territory that has an inelastic demand curve for our institutions goods and services, which happen to be quite similar in our 100 firms. As ‘competition’ is prohibited, legal power resides with each individual monopolist, the only method to remaining to drive expansion of territorial control and hence an expansion in revenues is through ‘war’.

Of course this is exactly the situation of the ‘State’ which historically consisted of ‘Kings’ and now are ‘governments’. There are some very important differences between the two forms of the ‘State’ however, as far as ‘government’ expansion is concerned, there are only two ways that they can expand their market share, direct war, or the threat of war, resulting in Imperialism.

Through history the theory of monopoly can be seen to drive the ever shrinking number of ‘States’ into ever larger territorial areas that are exploited by monopoly government. There have been stunning reversals, the Soviet Empire imploded of course, but the historical dialectic has been towards consolidation through war and aggression. The inelastic demand curve is inelastic as of course it is 100% coerced. The revenues generated are called ‘tax’.

Monopoly through coercion has a logical conclusion: one world government. Steps have of course been underway for a long time towards this ‘ideal’ using the fiat currency as the primary weapon. Bretton Woods saw the hegemony of the US. drive the implementation of the US dollar as the ‘world reserve’ currency, much as prior to WWI Britain held the unofficial world reserve currency.

The point? The point is this: fiat money provides government with a monopoly on money. It is this monopoly which allows the expropriation of the electorate, which funds governments expansionary dreams.

jog on
duc



Duc,

I've been reading and re-reading and re-re-reading this to get my head around it.

AND I'm not happy. :(

I think you are going about trying to make a point but totally losing me in the process. You are far too obtuse and self indulgent in my humble opinion.

1. One can't apply economics over politics just as
2. One can't apply politics to economics

One can certainly make analogies but running Governments are not the same as running companies - although some may want to treat it that way. Two different disciplines.

Same goes to law, judicial courts and private enterprise. If you wish to take it to the extreme I guess one can privatise just about everything including surrogate parents. But is that an optimal solution to struggling parents?


My thoughts are that there are what are termed natural monopolies.
- Telephone network
- Royal mail
- Transport infrastructure ie rail network
- Rubbish collection
- Gas & Electricity supply

Yes you can apply free market competition and provide separately but system would be far more efficient operated by a single entity. In some cases having a single provider would be a far better, cost effective solution to be honest.

Rail network privatisation is one of the biggest ****-ups ever. Have the consumer benefited? How does one measure / benchmark? One would compare with market leaders eg Holland or France. Does the UK or even just London have an integrated efficient transport policy or infrastructure. How difficult is it to book tickets. Personally speaking we cancelled our holiday to the Isle of Wight because the ferry ticketing system / pricing options and combinations is off the comprehension richter scale. Almost paid up £200 just for a return ticket and realised it is cheaper to cross the Atlantic... WTF is going on with British management to think and believe I have a choice. I got an equally obtuse reply from customer services. I'm really sick of everything that is privatised. No choice at all. All the utilities have customers by the short and curlies.

BT still own communications infrastructure? Do we really have choice with 000s of tariffs from different network providers? How many micro-wave dishes does one block of high rise flats and school back yards need? What a waste of resource and potential damage to our children. What are all this minimum 12, 18 or 24 month tie in contracts? If you grumble well they are all doing it. And INDEED they are. Barriers to entry are so great takes a lot of money and balls to come in.

Moreover, as you well know why should I undercut the competition by competing on price. I'll compete on product differentiation and add another 100 extra tarriffs and give the poor confused *******s even more choice. Thank you Mrs Thatcher. I've hear all the arguments for and against nationalisation and how brilliant it has turned out for us all. REALLY? I don't think so...

We British management can't run the bleeding companies so we sell off the crown jewels for 50p and get every foreign git to buy and run and exhort monies from the public in the guise of private enterprise and choice.

Some industries are also strategic that one does not want free market to take over!
French own eDF. They can turn off pretty much turn off half of South East England.

Frankly speaking in due course the public will be so sick and tired with private enterprise that they will revert back.

I much prefer government to any private enterprise, but sadly government is in the pockets of big global business and politicians are bent to the core. The governments PPI initiative is to rip off the tax payer. Beggars belief this BS can be sold to us. I have experience of outsourcing to private industry.

You go around making assumptions left right and centre like a true economist and claim you have a universal solution. I'm afraid I don't have the time or the will to persist with your grandiose explanation but don't get it at all.

I can see the similarity between a monopoly and government but I can also see similarities in man and horse.

You sound like a little boy who has discovered "the one" universal theory of economics and are determined to apply it to everything on planet earth as per your vision, assumptions and definitions.


Can you be a little more succinct and humour my struggling comprehension por favor (y)
 
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Again, I'll post from time to time just to check I've understood fully what you're saying.

Indeed.

Humans some of the time make voluntary actions, and when doing so they do it with intent. When acting purposefully they are constrained by time. So some of the time, they are constrained by time, since they're not always acting purposefully.

Incorrect.

Even if choosing to do nothing, that is a choice. That choice values doing nothing, more highly than doing something. As they cannot do nothing, and something at the "same time" they are always constrained by time.



We're including nothing as a 'thing' then, yes? Else if there is only one 'thing' available, then we are not choosing. And 'everything' is a 'thing then too. i.e. if we are wanting food, and there is an apple and an orange, then apple is a thing, orange is a thing, apple+orange (everything there) is a thing and nothing is a thing. Half an orange is a thing, half an apple is a thing, a quarter, a tenth, we have infinite "things" here then to value from two basic items.

Correct. Nothing can be a "thing" as easily as a something can be a "thing." It is irrelevant the "number" of things. Practically of course, there will be limits to things, economics after all deals with scarcity, which is real.

Ok, now this choice and valuation is a function of : the person, time, the situation of the person, etc..

Correct

And so the value is dynamic and subjective, yes?

Yes.


And this all applies some of the time.

No.

jog on
duc
 
Atilla,

Good grief man...pick one, any-one of your numerous examples will suffice, give me a few days to research it, and I'll come back to you on it.

jog on
duc
 
ncorrect.

Even if choosing to do nothing, that is a choice. That choice values doing nothing, more highly than doing something. As they cannot do nothing, and something at the "same time" they are always constrained by time.
I don't disagree that doing nothing can be a choice, however, the conclusions do not follow logically from your statements regardless of how sensible it sounds. Doing nothing as a choice is fine, but then there's also doing nothing involuntarily, and there's doing something involuntarily. This is the 'some of the time', that I came back to.

Just to repeat again in case it's not clear. Humans only act purposefully some of the time, this was what it seemed you initially claimed. You didn't claim they acted with intent all of the time, or have you now changed? I don't think it is sensible to suggest that humans act purposefully in every second of the day anyway.

Now, if they only act purposefully some of the time, and we draw some logical conclusions about their purposeful actions and choices, those conclusions are still only in the subset of 'some of the time', they can't be more general than that.

So it seems you've generalised it beyond what logic allows you to generalise it to, but I'm happy to continue to the next step with the above reservations.
 
I don't disagree that doing nothing can be a choice, however, the conclusions do not follow logically from your statements regardless of how sensible it sounds. Doing nothing as a choice is fine, but then there's also doing nothing involuntarily, and there's doing something involuntarily. This is the 'some of the time', that I came back to.

Apart from the "reflex arc" which I already mentioned, which would commonly be understood, there are functions of the "autonomic" nervous system that classify as involuntary by today's understanding. Of course at a cellular level, or going lower to molecular level, actions are taken all the time that we are unaware of. CNS function in higher brain levels is also classified as "unconscious."

Doing "nothing" involuntarily however is different. Physiological functions, if "nothing" generally indicate death. Only through cognitive choice can the individual choose as an entire "unit" to do "nothing" allowing for the qualifications that allow life.

The point I am making, is that you are splitting hairs, but not even terribly accurately.



Just to repeat again in case it's not clear. Humans only act purposefully some of the time, this was what it seemed you initially claimed. You didn't claim they acted with intent all of the time, or have you now changed? I don't think it is sensible to suggest that humans act purposefully in every second of the day anyway.

Excluding involuntary physiological functions, required to maintain physiological life, individual humans act purposefully, all of the time.

Do you have any specific examples of your objections?



Now, if they only act purposefully some of the time, and we draw some logical conclusions about their purposeful actions and choices, those conclusions are still only in the subset of 'some of the time', they can't be more general than that.

Disagree. However, I'll await your arguments to the contrary.




So it seems you've generalised it beyond what logic allows you to generalise it to, but I'm happy to continue to the next step with the above reservations.

There is no point in proceeding forward until we are agreed, or not, on the truth of the propositions so far.

jog on
duc
 
My thoughts are that there are what are termed natural monopolies.
- Telephone network
- Royal mail
- Transport infrastructure ie rail network
- Rubbish collection
- Gas & Electricity supply

Yes you can apply free market competition and provide separately but system would be far more efficient operated by a single entity. In some cases having a single provider would be a far better, cost effective solution to be honest.

Rail network privatisation is one of the biggest ****-ups ever. Have the consumer benefited? How does one measure / benchmark? One would compare with market leaders eg Holland or France. Does the UK or even just London have an integrated efficient transport policy or infrastructure. How difficult is it to book tickets. Personally speaking we cancelled our holiday to the Isle of Wight because the ferry ticketing system / pricing options and combinations is off the comprehension richter scale. Almost paid up £200 just for a return ticket and realised it is cheaper to cross the Atlantic... WTF is going on with British management to think and believe I have a choice. I got an equally obtuse reply from customer services. I'm really sick of everything that is privatised. No choice at all. All the utilities have customers by the short and curlies.

BT still own communications infrastructure? Do we really have choice with 000s of tariffs from different network providers? How many micro-wave dishes does one block of high rise flats and school back yards need? What a waste of resource and potential damage to our children. What are all this minimum 12, 18 or 24 month tie in contracts? If you grumble well they are all doing it. And INDEED they are. Barriers to entry are so great takes a lot of money and balls to come in.

TBH there is a lot of truth in that.
When even the americans with private healthcare and everything else still
have the USPS in public hands (enshrined in the constitution).

Thats the key with infrastructure, its primary role is to grease the wheels of commerce.
Not directly generate a profit.
Flies in the face of the free market for everything philosophy, but the facts
do point to that.

When margins are already wafer thin, profit increase always comes at the
expense of increased cost or service / safety lapses.
For any naysayers, the USPS is a shining example in the land of the free market.
Certain exceptions as mentioed are better not exposed to a free market.
UK gas and rail infrastructure maintenance being taking into public ownership
again after disastrous private ownership is a prime example.
 
Ducati,

Now you're getting into functions of the autonomic nervous system, things that are involuntary, subconscious impulses, these are things not 'fully' understood by anyone, so we can't hope to conclude anything for sure in that area, certainly nothing irrefutable as you were hoping, although you can certainly make some reasonable suggestions as you have. But involuntary is just something you didn't choose to do, and it may be because of external events too rather than internal physical events. There are other people in this world of yours aren't there? And they can interact? If someone hits me in the nose and knocks me down, and I fall down, that's not a voluntary action on my part, nor is it a choice made by me from some valuation. It would be classified as involuntary woudln't it?

Of course things occur at cellular level, but those are not choices from the conscious person, those are not value judgements, those are something very different, and as I said, are not properly understood. If you want to include human genetic reflexes, subconscious, conscious all as one, then you can, but again, it's not fully understood how these all work together and which supercedes which in teh decision making in various scenarios.

Disagree. However, I'll await your arguments to the contrary.
What is it you disagree with though. Is it that you are saying humans act purposefully and make an assessed choice at all times? This I would find a strange starting point, and currently I would consider this false.

Or are you disagreeing that those conclusions only apply to the subset of time?

If it's the latter, then this is fairly straightforward.
 
Ducati,

Now you're getting into functions of the autonomic nervous system, things that are involuntary, subconscious impulses, these are things not 'fully' understood by anyone, so we can't hope to conclude anything for sure in that area, certainly nothing irrefutable as you were hoping, although you can certainly make some reasonable suggestions as you have.

I have, and had, no intention of moving to a cellular level. It was however the only legitimate example of an "individual" acting without purpose or intent, the actions being physiological, and sub-conscious.

We can simply ignore this now and move on.



But involuntary is just something you didn't choose to do, and it may be because of external events too rather than internal physical events.

Here comes the importance of time.


There are other people in this world of yours aren't there? And they can interact? If someone hits me in the nose and knocks me down, and I fall down, that's not a voluntary action on my part, nor is it a choice made by me from some valuation. It would be classified as involuntary woudln't it?

You, as an individual would have been engaged in purposeful activity, through your choosing it. That outside events "happen" do not negate the fact that prior to being punched on the nose, you were engaged in your valued choice.

Now, after being punched on the nose, you have a new set of choices to make.

In the same way, I choose to travel from A to B by car, and am hit by another car on the way from A to B. My original choice, is, or must be, re-evaluated, in the light of new data. I make new choices, valuations.

This is perfectly consistent, and logically valid.



Of course things occur at cellular level, but those are not choices from the conscious person, those are not value judgements, those are something very different, and as I said, are not properly understood. If you want to include human genetic reflexes, subconscious, conscious all as one, then you can, but again, it's not fully understood how these all work together and which supercedes which in teh decision making in various scenarios.

It is my intention to include all self-propagating physiological functions of an individual, as included, and irrelevant to the current discussion.




What is it you disagree with though. Is it that you are saying humans act purposefully and make an assessed choice at all times? This I would find a strange starting point, and currently I would consider this false.

Yes, they act purposefully all of the time. They do not make assessed choices, they make value choices.





Or are you disagreeing that those conclusions only apply to the subset of time?

If it's the latter, then this is fairly straightforward.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

jog on
duc
 
When punched in the nose and sent flying, at that very time, and for an interval of time, I would not be engaged in any purposeful activity of my own choice, I would be subject to someone else's intent. I'm engaged in an activity that could not be called a voluntary one from my perspective. You have to understand, that when you use the word voluntary, and the word choice, implicit in that is that is that it is conscious and under the person's control. If it is not, it ceases being a choice. If the doctor hits my knee and causes a reflex, that is not a choice, the reflex is not a choice. It's an involuntary reflex. These words have meaning. Currently you have been using 'choice' as a set of all possible things that could occur consciously physically, subconsciously or not occur etc. This is not really appropriate for a proper debate, as it dilutes the meaning of the word, and if these words have no real meaning, we can't conclude anything from them and it becomes a word game. And not only that, but it leads to paradoxes and logical inconsistencies (see the last in bold)

Ok, the other issue then - it does not follow that because there is a time constraint a choice must be made now. It might follow that a choice needs to be made before the time constraint or .... (fill in something here).

I will die without food after x days. I have a time constraint there or I will die (the or else part is important), but I don't need to make any choices with regard to that constraint now, or for quite some time. In effect, the constraint is irrelevant to me right now, but it will be relevant in the future. Another person is say mentally unwell, and doesn't want to eat, and is willing to die. In a way they aren't even subject to the constraint at all, and a third person is in a coma and has others to make that choice for them. Later on the coma victim wakes up from the coma and continues everyday life, and yet there's a large vacuum of time in which he wasn't acting purposefully. You may think this is splitting hairs, but this is the purpose of a counter example, it's allowed to be unusual, and it shows the statement you made to be false.

If you intend to reduce the argument again to, NOT making a choice now is making a choice, not obeying the constraint is obeying the constraint and making a choice, and not having any influence on the situation like the coma victim is making some absurd choice, then again you're using choice to mean everything possible.



Now just as a quick demonstration of the logical inconsistency you've created with this, when you use the word 'choice' like that:

In order for there to be a choice, there must be some things to choose from. So let C be the set of all possible choices I can choose from. I am a human and act purposefully, so i decide to choose something NOT in C. According to you, this is a choice, so it should be in C, because C is the list of all choices, but by definition it doesn't belong to C, so we have a contradiction. If you try to resolve that contradiction by suggesting that I cannot choose something that is NOT in C, then you've taken away my right to choose and therefore by definition I wouldn't be making a voluntary choice at that time. Either way, your statement falls down.
 
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