Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

[new_trader]

This is one of the reasons why the U.K is in such a mess, it has zero to do with the utter nonsense Atilla posts about capitalism.

From the ONS
Labour market statistics: November
2011

Average total pay (including bonuses) in the private sector was £460 per week in September 2011.In the three months to September 2011 total pay in the private sector rose by 2.4 per cent on a year earlier. Average regular pay (excluding bonuses) in the private sector was £426 per week in September 2011. In the three months to September 2011 regular pay in the private sector rose by 1.7 per cent on a year earlier.


Average total pay (including bonuses) in the public sector was £477 per week in September 2011. In the three months to September 2011 total pay in the public sector rose by 2.3 per cent on a year earlier. Average total pay in the public sector, excluding financial services, was £468 per week in September 2011. In the three months to September 2011 total pay in the public sector, excluding financial services, rose by 1.8 per cent on a year earlier. Average regular pay (excluding bonuses) in the public sector was £473 per week in September 2011. In the three months to September 2011 regular pay in the public sector rose by 2.0 per cent on a year earlier. Average regular pay in the public sector, excluding financial services, was £466 per week in September 2011. In the three months to September 2011 regular pay in the public sector, excluding financial services, rose by 1.8 per cent on a year earlier.

 

[Pat494]

They have already tried spending their way out of the mess and gone into such a huge debt, it may not be possible to ever pay it off !!

All quite unnecessarily inmho

So they just have to try the alternative in my opinion which is put up the barriers to protect one's own industries. The IMF talked the little economies into accepting Free Trade but now that it's their own economies at risk those " apostles of disaster " have fallen silent. The hypocrites !!

 

[new_trader]

They have already tried spending their way out of the mess and gone into such a huge debt, it may not be possible to ever pay it off !!

All quite unnecessarily inmho

So they just have to try the alternative in my opinion which is put up the barriers to protect one's own industries. The IMF talked the little economies into accepting Free Trade but now that it's their own economies at risk those " apostles of disaster " have fallen silent. The hypocrites !!

The state is taking more and more money from the productive sector of the economy and you think the solution is trade barriers? :-0

It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family, never
to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to
make than to buy. The tailor does not attempt to make his
own shoes, but buys them of the shoemaker. The shoemaker
does not attempt to make his own clothes, but
employs a tailor. The farmer attempts to make neither the
one nor the other, but employs those different artificers.
All of them find it for their interest to employ their whole
industry in a way in which they have some advantage over
their neighbors, and to purchase with a part of its produce,
or what is the same thing, with the price of a part
of it, whatever else they have occasion for. What is prudence
in the conduct of every private family can scarce be
folly in that of a great kingdom.

 

[darktone]

They have already tried spending their way out of the mess and gone into such a huge debt, it may not be possible to ever pay it off !!

You understand that money is debt under our current system. If all debt was paid down there would be no money.

 

[Pat494]

The state is taking more and more money from the productive sector of the economy and you think the solution is trade barriers? :-0

It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family, never
to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to
make than to buy. The tailor does not attempt to make his
own shoes, but buys them of the shoemaker. The shoemaker
does not attempt to make his own clothes, but
employs a tailor. The farmer attempts to make neither the
one nor the other, but employs those different artificers.
All of them find it for their interest to employ their whole
industry in a way in which they have some advantage over
their neighbors, and to purchase with a part of its produce,
or what is the same thing, with the price of a part
of it, whatever else they have occasion for. What is prudence
in the conduct of every private family can scarce be
folly in that of a great kingdom.

Oh Great !!
Lets throw in the towel , sit on our duffs and let other countries make what we need.
You don't explain how we are going to pay for it . The view of a typical "hand-out" system kid. Just make a lot of noise and mess in various city centres and intimidate the Govt into payouts I suppose !

 

[new_trader]

Oh Great !!
Lets throw in the towel , sit on our duffs and let other countries make what we need.
You don't explain how we are going to pay for it . The view of a typical "hand-out" system kid. Just make a lot of noise and mess in various city centres and intimidate the Govt into payouts I suppose !

It has nothing to do with throwing in the towel and everything to do with seen and unseen consequences. Whatever Government does that benefits group A will have negative consequences on group B. 'Supporting' our industries by making imports more expensive means consumers will pay more for those products and this means they have less to spend on something else. The industries they spend less on will then suffer. This is the problem when you have Government trying to manage the economy instead of allowing the free market to manage itself.

If the Government was more business friendly our industries would naturally become more competitive. The more our Government burdens us all with taxation and inflation the worse things will get, as I pointed out months ago.

 

[Pat494]

That's so nearly right NT but :-

1. The debt levels are already so big they are almost unsustainable and therefore need decreasing.
2. Your point that people will have less to spend on other things is all because of having to pay the pain from crappy Socialist philosophy & policies. A lot less would be spent on China etc. made goods. A lot more on initially sub standard home produced goods until they catch up.

 

[barjon]

They have already tried spending their way out of the mess and gone into such a huge debt, it may not be possible to ever pay it off !!

All quite unnecessarily inmho

So they just have to try the alternative in my opinion which is put up the barriers to protect one's own industries. The IMF talked the little economies into accepting Free Trade but now that it's their own economies at risk those " apostles of disaster " have fallen silent. The hypocrites !!

Pat

Whilst I don't agree with outright "protectionism" I do believe in favouring UK produced goods (not that we're making much nowadays ) .

I carry a scar from years ago when I was in procurement in the public sector and buying 5000 calculators when they first hit the scene. The contestants were Sinclair (UK manufactured) and Casio (Japan manufactured) and I was most unhappy to be forced to buy Casio since they were offered at a groat or two cheaper than Sinclair. The money involved was thus lost to Japan which was, I believed, a pretty dumb move from Government who should have been more attuned to fostering an emerging industry in the UK (Sinclair) and less concerned about small short term costs.

Well, that's competition for you, you might say. Quite right, too, but Government have a responsibility to look after the interests of their people in the long term. My quarrel with the Thatcher era, for example, is not that the Government of the time stopped propping up old industries, but that they did not foster and invest in emerging ones (with all that lovely North Sea oil money coming on stream, too!!).

jon

 

[Atilla]

Pat

Whilst I don't agree with outright "protectionism" I do believe in favouring UK produced goods (not that we're making much nowadays ) .

I carry a scar from years ago when I was in procurement in the public sector and buying 5000 calculators when they first hit the scene. The contestants were Sinclair (UK manufactured) and Casio (Japan manufactured) and I was most unhappy to be forced to buy Casio since they were offered at a groat or two cheaper than Sinclair. The money involved was thus lost to Japan which was, I believed, a pretty dumb move from Government who should have been more attuned to fostering an emerging industry in the UK (Sinclair) and less concerned about small short term costs.

Well, that's competition for you, you might say. Quite right, too, but Government have a responsibility to look after the interests of their people in the long term. My quarrel with the Thatcher era, for example, is not that the Government of the time stopped propping up old industries, but that they did not foster and invest in emerging ones (with all that lovely North Sea oil money coming on stream, too!!).

jon

Interesting article I read recently pointed to a difference between German and British industry.

On German companies the family names who started them up have retained some element of control and membership in their running. Less so in the UK. (Not to mention banks sit on company boards and take long view on investment).

So what? - may be the question raised. The issue is that family names who are embedded to the company and its continuance have more of an interest on how well it does, continuation and market share than a company guided by management with the likes of chief execs and so called top businessman who are more ultimately concerned with numeration and company size.

I think it was George Wimpy who when times were hard in the 80s opted to work for free until Wimpey Plc became profitable again.

Supermarkets have loss leaders - because they know they'll get returns on other purchases.

When the whole system is run by bonus / risk chasing executives without a longer term perspective than a key strategic aspect ultimately necessary for continued survival of the business is lost. Hence, we see here today gone tomorrow companies and banks.

These emotive arguments can not be put down on paper or numerated like good will in creative accountancy. They can only be judged and perceived by a social perspective be it individual or government which is sadly lacking.

People who bark on about capitalism and free markets without a good understanding of how they really work in practice - will cut their noses off to spite their face.

 

[new_trader]

People who bark on about capitalism and free markets without a good understanding of how they really work in practice are cretins, as evidenced by the previous post.

 

[new_trader]

From the ONS:

Average total pay (including bonuses) in the private sector was £460 per week in September 2011.

Average total pay (including bonuses) in the public sector was £477 per week in September 2011.

 

[barjon]

Interesting article I read recently pointed to a difference between German and British industry.

On German companies the family names who started them up have retained some element of control and membership in their running. Less so in the UK. (Not to mention banks sit on company boards and take long view on investment).

So what? - may be the question raised. The issue is that family names who are embedded to the company and its continuance have more of an interest on how well it does, continuation and market share than a company guided by management with the likes of chief execs and so called top businessman who are more ultimately concerned with numeration and company size.

I think it was George Wimpy who when times were hard in the 80s opted to work for free until Wimpey Plc became profitable again.

Supermarkets have loss leaders - because they know they'll get returns on other purchases.

When the whole system is run by bonus / risk chasing executives without a longer term perspective than a key strategic aspect ultimately necessary for continued survival of the business is lost. Hence, we see here today gone tomorrow companies and banks.

These emotive arguments can not be put down on paper or numerated like good will in creative accountancy. They can only be judged and perceived by a social perspective be it individual or government which is sadly lacking.

People who bark on about capitalism and free markets without a good understanding of how they really work in practice - will cut their noses off to spite their face.

Atilla.

Well, one of the differences is that the German Government have always had the policy of helping their industrialists keep ahead of the pack. When others start making things significantly cheaper than you can, then you move the goal-posts and concentrate on making the machinery for them to use. Sometimes, like the auto industry with its robot machines, that concentration has the happy side effect of re-establishing your competitiveness in the actual goods themselves.

After the war Germany benefited hugely from an artificially low deutchmark which fuelled their economic growth for years. Now, with the Euro, they have managed to turn the same trick since they are not troubled by re-valuations of their own currency (or de-valuations of competing euro-zone countries' currencies) that would have otherwise been the case as their economic growth outstripped the others. They must be laughing all the way to the bank.

jon

 

[new_trader]

When others start making things significantly cheaper than you can, then you move the goal-posts and concentrate on making the machinery for them to use.

I think we should be looking closely at the reasons why someone can manufacture something significantly cheaper than we can. This is the crux of the debate. How did the USA go from being the worlds largest creditor nation to being the worlds largest debtor nation in the history of the world in under 50 years? U.K has followed the same path.

Why have manufacturers chosen to abandon the USA and U.K and move to Asia? If you say 'cheap labour' it still begs the question as to why wages are so much lower. I blame many things but it boils down to Government. Our standard of living hasn't improved (it has actually declined) in the last 40 years even though nominal wages have risen.

 

[Atilla]

Atilla.

Well, one of the differences is that the German Government have always had the policy of helping their industrialists keep ahead of the pack. When others start making things significantly cheaper than you can, then you move the goal-posts and concentrate on making the machinery for them to use. Sometimes, like the auto industry with its robot machines, that concentration has the happy side effect of re-establishing your competitiveness in the actual goods themselves.

This applies to our Trade and Industry department/office too. We have a dedicated minister for it. It is not a difference between the two countries. The UK government often helped by subisidising flagging industries to no avail.

After the war Germany benefited hugely from an artificially low deutchmark which fuelled their economic growth for years. Now, with the Euro, they have managed to turn the same trick since they are not troubled by re-valuations of their own currency (or de-valuations of competing euro-zone countries' currencies) that would have otherwise been the case as their economic growth outstripped the others. They must be laughing all the way to the bank.

True - after post-WWII they did receive a lot of help and this may have been a factor back then but hardly reason for it after 60 years. Sadly - this scenario could not be said to apply to the UK after Norman Lamont let the £ float freely from 2.80s to 2.20 if I recall correctly.

jon

Another to add to that list of differences is spending on defence which the Germans and the Japanese were barred from doing. Spending 5-10% of expenditure on weapons is excessive. If one can not spend that money on military only other area is manufacturing I'd guess.

Not to mention the Germans and Japanese value engineers much highly than we do and this has been the case over a century.

Can anyone point out if any major German company has ever been bought out by any foreign one? In contrast how many British ones have been sold?

Regarding manufacturing and managing good industrial relations and investment - an example case could be the Mini. Our politicians with all their consultant advisors or very university academics should study how the Germans can do it and we can't?

Does anyone here think it is because their appreciation and practice of capitalism is somehow different to ours.

Is the environment they operate under any different to ours?

Are their cost of labour and production systems different?

Do they have any unfair advantages?

I think not. Pretty much to do with our elite management (Etonites) and HMS system of government and leaders imho.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

From the ONS:

Average total pay (including bonuses) in the private sector was £460 per week in September 2011.

Average total pay (including bonuses) in the public sector was £477 per week in September 2011.

While I see your point and agree with you about public sector pay, those number mean nothing without context and some indication or derivation.

 

[new_trader]

Excellent news.:clap:

U.K. Home Prices Fall and Worse to Come as Confidence Ebbs, Hometrack Says - Bloomberg

The free market will win in the end, but that won't stop Governments from trashing their economies trying to fight it. More Q.E no doubt...

 

[darktone]

Excellent news.:clap:

U.K. Home Prices Fall and Worse to Come as Confidence Ebbs, Hometrack Says - Bloomberg

The free market will win in the end, but that won't stop Governments from trashing their economies trying to fight it. More Q.E no doubt...

I think a house price falls (in the eyes of the public at least) are being hidden by inflation. They see money as static in value.

 

[Martinghoul]

People who bark on about capitalism and free markets without a good understanding of how they really work in practice are cretins...

My goodness... If I were you, I wouldn't really make statements like this, n_t.

 

[Atilla]

My goodness... If I were you, I wouldn't really make statements like this, n_t.

NT gets top marks for robust self belief and confidence but sad to see what our educational establishment produces these days.

Maybe I'm just getting old but not like what it used to be.

Now where have I heard that before... :cheesy:

 

[Pat494]

I am alarmed to hear Georgie Os talking about closer financial integration. Doesn't the silly s*d realize you need to distance oneself from disasters and the eurocrap zone is a disaster, put togethor by commitees of ignorant people.
They can't even see that it is high time to pull the plug on EU nonsense! Sooner the better.