Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

[scose-no-doubt]

Benefial relative FX strength for productions and energy costs
Child labour
Poor health and safety standards
Component/raw material logistics costs
Low wages pressure
Easier trading conditions e.g. environmental/monopoly/antitrust legislation
Shared distribution channels - delivering throughout world on way to us

I'm sure an economist could think of more reasons. I'm only an accountant so limitation of scope and all.

 

[new_trader]

Germany, a rich, high wage Western country with a population of 80 million exports roughly as much as low wage China. Population 1,300 million.

If that doesn't squash this 'you can only produce when you have low wages' myth I don't know what will.

I've said it before, but for a large part of the 20th century the USA had the highest wages, highest standard of living, the highest savings rate, was the largest creditor nation, produced the highest quality goods and was the largest exporter.

All at the same time.

Exactly.

It's also the reason why the US dollar became the reserve currency, it was as good as gold literally and figuratively. None of this currency debasement nonsense to boost exports

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Germany, a rich, high wage Western country with a population of 80 million exports roughly as much as low wage China. Population 1,300 million.

If that doesn't squash this 'you can only produce when you have low wages' myth I don't know what will.

Completely different markets and different type of exports. Germany has a niche of sorts.

The question wasn't one of "you can only produce when you have low wages" it was what can the UK produce for export? And could they be competitive?

Land rover, anyone? There's cars out.
Aeronautical? Whoops, China is building it's own planes? Bye bye Rolls Royce.
Research? Seems unlikely with a 27k degree in media and communications.

Any suggestions? Not being sarcastic btw if I'm coming across that way.

I've said it before, but for a large part of the 20th century the USA had the highest wages, highest standard of living, some of the lowest taxes, the highest savings rate, was the largest creditor nation, produced the highest quality goods and was the largest exporter.

All at the same time.

They also had massive population growth and thus domestic demand.
Anyway why would debt reliance cripple the american industry for example? They should be selling more cars if people can borrow money ,no? Or is someone else producing better quality more cheaply?

 

[new_trader]

Completely different markets and different type of exports. Germany has a niche of sorts.

The question wasn't one of "you can only produce when you have low wages" it was what can the UK produce for export? And could they be competitive?

Land rover, anyone? There's cars out.
Aeronautical? Whoops, China is building it's own planes? Bye bye Rolls Royce.
Research? Seems unlikely with a 27k degree in media and communications.

Any suggestions? Not being sarcastic btw if I'm coming across that way.



They also had massive population growth and thus domestic demand.

The free market will figure out what it can produce locally if the Government got out of the way.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

So magic then?

Does the government not effectively get out of the way when they offer 100% tax breaks to certain industries - after consultation with many corporate leaders. Reports and just done by MPs they're outsourced.

 

[YouAreNotFree]

Benefial relative FX strength for productions and energy costs
Child labour
Poor health and safety standards
Component/raw material logistics costs
Low wages pressure
Easier trading conditions e.g. environmental/monopoly/antitrust legislation
Shared distribution channels - delivering throughout world on way to us

I'm sure an economist could think of more reasons. I'm only an accountant so limitation of scope and all.

My 2p on child labour.


Why do you think we don't have it anymore? Is it because we legislated it away? Or is it that we became productive enough that we didn't have to send our kids to work? Case in point, India launched a clampdown on child labour. Unless they were lucky enough to be picked up by a charitable organisation they ended up starving or in prostitution.

Poor people are human beings like us too. They don't want to send their kids to work.

 

[new_trader]

So magic then?

I'm not sure what answer you are looking for, who came up with the idea for Google, facebook, twitter? Was it the Government with the help of modern economists?

 

[new_trader]

So magic then?

Does the government not effectively get out of the way when they offer 100% tax breaks to certain industries - after consultation with many corporate leaders. Reports and just done by MPs they're outsourced.

THAT is the problem! The Government shouldn't be there to pick and choose industries.

 

[new_trader]

My 2p on child labour.


Why do you think we don't have it anymore? Is it because we legislated it away? Or is it that we became productive enough that we didn't have to send our kids to work? Case in point, India launched a clampdown on child labour. Unless they were lucky enough to be picked up by a charitable organisation they ended up starving or in prostitution.

Poor people are human beings like us too. They don't want to send their kids to work.

All good points. Slavery isn't very productive and neither is child labour. History has proven this.

 

[new_trader]

THAT is the problem! The Government shouldn't be there to pick and choose industries.

Solyndra is a perfect example of why.

Solyndra, Solar-Panel Maker in California, Seeks Bankruptcy - Bloomberg

 

[scose-no-doubt]

THAT is the problem! The Government shouldn't be there to pick and choose industries.

You're cherry picking part of my most mate. These decisions are made after lots of consultation with business leaders.

Slavery isn't very productive and neither is child labour.

Tell the former to every banking dynasty and major bank in existence and tell the latter to Nike.http://www.tradingawards.com/

I'm not sure what answer you are looking for, who came up with the idea for Google, facebook, twitter? Was it the Government with the help of modern economists?

Jesus Christ you're that last person I thought would be praising fresh air billion dollar IPOs like those (I'll give you google - for now!). Is selling information to government a good business model for pristine capitalists liek yourself

 

[YouAreNotFree]

Completely different markets and different type of exports. Germany has a niche of sorts.

The question wasn't one of "you can only produce when you have low wages" it was what can the UK produce for export? And could they be competitive?

Land rover, anyone? There's cars out.
Aeronautical? Whoops, China is building it's own planes? Bye bye Rolls Royce.
Research? Seems unlikely with a 27k degree in media and communications.

Any suggestions? Not being sarcastic btw if I'm coming across that way.



They also had massive population growth and thus domestic demand.
Anyway why would debt reliance cripple the american industry for example? They should be selling more cars if people can borrow money ,no? Or is someone else producing better quality more cheaply?

Completely different markets and different type of exports. Germany has a niche of sorts.

The question wasn't one of "you can only produce when you have low wages" it was what can the UK produce for export? And could they be competitive?

Land rover, anyone? There's cars out.
Aeronautical? Whoops, China is building it's own planes? Bye bye Rolls Royce.
Research? Seems unlikely with a 27k degree in media and communications.

Any suggestions? Not being sarcastic btw if I'm coming across that way.



They also had massive population growth and thus domestic demand.
Anyway why would debt reliance cripple the american industry for example? They should be selling more cars if people can borrow money ,no? Or is someone else producing better quality more cheaply?

Germany competes mainly based on quality, not price. I wouldn't say it has a niche.

If I knew what the UK could produce in a successful way I would be a rich industrialist and not a speculator. This is the trap politicians fall into. They pick an industry, susbsidise it and of course get it all wrong. There are plenty of smart people out there who can do amazing things..... if we clear all the hurdles and barriers away.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

If I knew what the UK could produce in a successful way I would be a rich industrialist and not a speculator. This is the trap politicians fall into. They pick an industry, susbsidise it and of course get it all wrong. There are plenty of smart people out there who can do amazing things..... if we clear all the hurdles and barriers away.

Germany's exports luxury and expensive goods and machinery. That's what I meant. Nobody else can compete on that basis least of all the UK.

China and the EM don't. Apples and oranges.

If I knew what the UK could produce in a successful way I would be a rich industrialist and not a speculator. This is the trap politicians fall into. They pick an industry, susbsidise it and of course get it all wrong. There are plenty of smart people out there who can do amazing things..... if we clear all the hurdles and barriers away.

Do you think it's a coincidence that most of the recent rich industrialists and/or billionaires are BRIC and EM?

 

[scose-no-doubt]

If you guys want to argue with trillions in unbiased risk capital then be my guest.

I have some stuff to do - might check in again later.

 

[YouAreNotFree]

All good points. Slavery isn't very productive and neither is child labour. History has proven this.

There have been studies on the economics of Slavery.

The conclusion they came to was that by the time you paid for the slave, fed/housed/ clothed them, paid to take measures to stop them escaping etc, that it would have been more productive to simply employ people.

The system works better when individuals are incentivised, and you don't achieve that by slavery.

 

[Pat494]

A sort of slavery could start again here in Europe. In the 16th century and before people who owed money had to indenture themselves for a period of time to pay off their debts. It could happen again. Better than starving

 

[scose-no-doubt]

There have been studies on the economics of Slavery.

The conclusion they came to was that by the time you paid for the slave, fed/housed/ clothed them, paid to take measures to stop them escaping etc, that it would have been more productive to simply employ people.

The system works better when individuals are incentivised, and you don't achieve that by slavery.

where did you read that crock of sh*t?

I don't care about any ridiculous retrospective "studies" when there is real world, real time, empirical evidence of the economic benefits of exploitation labour. To even attempt to argue to the contrary is ridiculous.

 

[YouAreNotFree]

where did you read that crock of sh*t?

I don't care about any ridiculous retrospective "studies" when there is real world, real time, empirical evidence of the economic benefits of exploitation labour. To even attempt to argue to the contrary is ridiculous.

As you're so sure I won't waste any more time on it then.

 

[new_trader]

It is utterly ridiculous to think that slave labour is superior to mechanisation and automation.

 

[Atilla]

As you're so sure I won't waste any more time on it then.

I agree - whoever produced that ridiculous study has got his assumptions well crossed.

Key factors of production are Land Labour and Capital. Capital includes technology. In the last 250 years capital re:technology played less a part other than finance.


So between Labour and Land to say cheap Labour was more profitable than zero cost labour is utter BS of the freaking biggest magnitude one can possibly imagine.

I'd be interested in this study and who commissioned it.

Beggars belief some people have no freaking common sense.



Not to mention reason why West was so far ahead of Latin America and Africa is precisely because these continents were ravaged and raped by exploitation and slavery.