If It's All About making Money?

TheBramble said:
Is Frugi gambling or trading when he plays poker (exceptionally well!)?

I increased my poker skill by a considerable and imaginary margin for sake of example.

That said, my kind gf gave me a $125 internet account for my birthday in November (and they said romance was dead) and about 3000 hands later it stands at just over $200. 2.5c average per hand - now that's a small edge. :)
 
Yes. that's right Frugi, in fact very few people have done their sums. As an example, if you consider trading futures, you only need to bank two points a day net in order to double your original capital in one year.<g>.

oops ! Must go, back later.
 
Soc,
Once again BRILLIANT! I think ur a genius regardless what people may think or say!

Please dont stop posting.

Bulldozer
You dont have to be a genius to have common sense! But you need some common sense to be a genius. :LOL: :cheesy:
 
SOCRATES said:
No, I know there has been a lot of commentary about this film, but I myself have not seen it.
Worth watching ? If so I will rent a video on my return, I am off tomorrow AM for twelve days.
The flim (Farenheit 911) was logically sloppy and designed as an antedote to the logically sloppy entertainment that we call 'news' here in the states. It's main premise is that 'the ones who call the shots" are never in the target zone when the shooting sharts. (and ain't that the truth!)

***Off topic rant follows***
It doesn't really get into the insider trading aspect of airline put purchases prior to 9/11. I find the insider trading theory hard to believe - people with that kind of power at the CIA and major banks have easier -less public, -less traceable ways to make a couple of million $. The writing I have seen about 'insider trading in airline puts' shows an unwillingness to place the put/call ratio into historical perspective, and fails to acknowledge that the airlines were already overbought - and going through a cyclical contraction. We've all seen how the short speculators pile on to anything that smells like it might drop a bit...

I remember watching the TV that morning - and Dan Rather blathering on for about 45 seconds that there were reports that one of the towers had collapsed, but that they were waiting for confirmation - all the while the video was showing a single tower smoking in the cobalt blue sky.

There are plenty of other more interesting questions about 9/11. Like this one:
Watching the re-takes of the collapse during the next few minutes. My instant reaction was , "Oh, how nefarious! As if the planes weren't bad enough - they were just a decoy to draw in the bravest and the best to be murdered when the building was pulled." (pulled is the term we use here in the states for controlled demolition - the building is prewired and implodes into a neat little pile without splattering out) -And even more curious, I later learned that building number 7 across the street came down in another neat little pile after a fire there, and the owner said to a reporter, 'we decided to pull the building.'

Since then there have been excellent documentaries and explanations about how these planes *caused* the collapse, but I'm sticking with my initial reaction. I've just chalked it up to things I can not know - I don't have the resources to investigate in a way that would really satisfy me....So I put it all with that other large pile of things to be filed away and ignored until new evidence comes to light.
***Off topic rant ends***
JO
 
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Anecdotal Posting with regard to Sept 11th.

Hello Jump Off, I have just finished my day so I have some time.

This question of Airline puts would be misunderstood by the great majority of people, because in order to undestand what it is in its correct context you have to be a trader. As you say, if the market is already showing indications of weakness professionals are not going to go against the flow unless a bottom is anticipated. In the absence of this no one in his right mind goes long in a short market.

When a catastrophe like this occurs, you will always remember what you were doing at the time and so on. On that day, I was in Spain, in Marbella, and I was having lunch with a group of friends who are not traders and know nothing, absolutely nothing about markets, or trading, or anything with regard to this but, like many people in ordinary life have a lot of "opinions".We were sitting in an open air restaurant called "Los Naranjos" (The Orange Trees) No doubt there are members who know it because it is famous.

Just as we were about to order, my mobile (cell phone) starts ringing. I answer it and to my utter consternation and amazement it is one of my people who was holding a short position in Dec S+P futures initiated two days previously on the basis that the market was weak and trickling down. He starts yelling (very unusual for him) unintelligibly and asking if I have heard anything because he says the market is plumetting but with huge volatility at the same time and this kind of decline is something he has never seen before. At first he thinks it is an error, then he thinks it is a world war, then he thinks he doesn't know what to think, there is nothing on the news (my friends are very alarmed at all this) then I ask him to call the progression of the raw numbers, and in fact he is dead right, this is not an ordinary price waterfall, it looks like a crash, because there is no apparent floor but the reason is not clear.

The market now begins to fall, seriously fall and he begins to panic. At this moment his wife bursts into his office. I will tell you that this is also very unusual, because in my circle we do not allow interruptions from visitors or any sort whilst a position is running, ever. It transpires that in a garbled sense she tries to explain that there is a newsflash from the US that the twin towers have been hit by planes and the first live pictures come out. I tell him to ignore the news and just concentrate on the price and its progression. This he continues to do. By now his position in well in the money. The fall continues and according to what he is telling me I now give him a snap instruction to put in an order to buy at limit 20 or so points under the current latest. H does this, and manages to close his position 8 points off the bottom. I now congratulate him on his spectacular trade.

We now turn our attention to what the news channels are revealing. We all leave the table and walk across to a shop that sells TVs and there is a huge crowd on the pavement (sidewalk) crowding the entrance to the shop, the shop windows, huge. Now my friends who see all of this turn on me, because of their perspective, and start saying this is a tragedy and you should not use it to make money out of it and other irrelevant nonsense. The crowd who hear this, now start shouting at me ! I can tell you I will never forget the experience. It took a week for a couple of them to venture to speak to me again.

I tell you this because this is what can happen to any trader who allows "civilians" to enter his domain.
Ordinary people have great difficulty in separating the concept of taking advantage of a trading opportunity because they percieve it (incorrectly) as taking advantage of a catastrophe.

I have also just remembered how it was that in the middle of the Wall Street Crash of 1929, Jesse Livermore was inundated by very nasty phone calls from members of the public accusing him of having caused the crash. He took every call that came in and tried his best to persuade each caller that it was not the case, until the poor chap ran out of patience and had to give up and turn his attention to his trading.

I tell you all these things because there exists in the popular imagination the erroneous concept that speculators and traders are inhuman or immoral creatures. Nothing could be further from the truth. The problem lies with the inability of non-traders and non-speculators to understand all of this.

I never did have my lunch, the rest of the day was spent sulking and arguing the point,
but I must admit I spent days afterwards viewing and re viewing the news, which filled me
with horror and sadness, to me it seemed like a horror movie, unreal almost, horrendous, very tragic and a testament to the stupidity and wickedness of which human beings can be capable.
 
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Gamble 'take risky action in the hope of a desired result'

Any one who trades the market, runs a business, drives a car, walks to work, eats mass produced food fits this definition from the Oxford English Dictionary. There may be degrees of risk and desired result but that's what life is all about. It's just one big gamble, some people just don't see or think of the risks involved so they think they're not gambling.
 
Tufty, there are gambles and gambles, some are wild, and others carefully calculated, and that is what makes the difference.
 
If my memory serves me correctly, once the price waterfall showed signs of deepening to unacceptable levels, trading was halted. You are thinking of the previous big fright in which curbs were put in and trading stopped additionally. That was in '97.
 
I remember the futures were strongly up on Sept 11th before the attack took place. I remember because I had closed a trade for a profit that morning and I had decided to go out after lunch. For some reason I had the TV on just before I was going to go out and the news came over that a plane had hit one of the WTC towers. They thought it was a light aircraft and that it was an accident. I checked Bloomberg and the futures had gone down but were still above the previous days close. Then the second plane hit and I was more interested in watching the news than the markets.

Would be interesting to see a chart for the futures that day if anyone has one. It certainly makes me wonder why some people still trade without stops.
 
There are two categories of trader that trade without stops.

The ones who do not know what exactlly it is they are doing and therefore have to be protected from themselves.

And the ones who know exactly what it is they are doing and are able to protect themselves.
 
bulldozer said:
Soc,
Once again BRILLIANT! I think ur a genius regardless what people may think or say!

Please dont stop posting.

Bulldozer
You dont have to be a genius to have common sense! But you need some common sense to be a genius. :LOL: :cheesy:
I have only just seen this, thank you for your message of encouragement, it is appreciated.

Kind Regards.
 
SOCRATES said:
Listen Wisestguy,

What Bigbusiness says in his post above is perfectly correct. He talks about skill, about acquiring an edge, about maximising that edge and skill, about abstaining when conditions are not right, and about the potential without preimposed limit that a really big cash game can offer.So why are you arguing with him ? It seems to me that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. This is not favourable to constructive discussion. We none of us who are serious about this topic are interested in destructive arguments for the sake of them.

blah blah blah + more


Kind Regards.


you listen " socrates " .

your reply doesn't even touch on the sub-topic we were addressing . do you even know the difference between a royal flush and your toilet ?

I doubt it .

so " socrates " , I have my opinion , I'm entitled to it and I will keep giving it when I like , if you are jealous or don't like it , then TOUGH . that's life.
 
there are only 2 types of traders ones that trade with stops ( real ones not mental notes ) and ones that don't .

the ones that do are traders , the ones that don't are ...... GAMBLERS.

HAHAHA.
 
>>That said, my kind gf gave me a $125 internet account for my birthday in November (and they said >>romance was dead) and about 3000 hands later it stands at just over $200. 2.5c average per hand - >>now that's a small edge.


After 3000 hands , you only end up with only 60% return on cap.

man , I would expect at least 75% in 1 night , when I used to play !

if this is what the so called gamblers call an edge , it's no wonder they can't make a dime in the markets.

long term edge my a*s.
 
Good of you billionaires to pop in and keep us mere mortals on the straight and narrow then, isn't it?
75% in 1 night and still Bill Gates is leading Warren Buffet in the rich guy list... go on, I give up - which one of them are you?
 
wisestguy said:
there are only 2 types of traders ones that trade with stops ( real ones not mental notes ) and ones that don't .

the ones that do are traders , the ones that don't are ...... GAMBLERS.

HAHAHA.


this post shows naivety beyond reproach.
i would not be hahaha ing if i were in your shoes i would be very worried indeed.
 
The poker/trading thing is not a comparison. You can't wait out out in a game of poker without having to throw in minimums. The markets leave it up to you to make up your own amount of risk, nothing is forced upon you.
 
wisestguy said:
After 3000 hands , you only end up with only 60% return on cap.

man , I would expect at least 75% in 1 night , when I used to play !

if this is what the so called gamblers call an edge , it's no wonder they can't make a dime in the markets.

long term edge my a*s.

Considering I only started playing four months ago I don't think 60% is a terrible return.
But that is irrelevant.

My point was that even with a tiny, seemingly insignificant edge, surprisingly decent returns can still be made over time. I probably only win one in ten hands as my post flop strategy is poor. I play extremely tightly, probably excessively so. I never bluff.

But the fact still remains that I have survived a statistically significant number of hands without losing my shirt and this is testament to my edge. As I play on the small $10 NL tables there is no way I could make 75% of my capital in one night, but a winning hand will often double that initial $10 buy in. The other nine odd losing ones will probably lose $2-$4.

A casino's long term edge is also very small on some games, especially blackjack. But it seems to be sufficient to make them very wealthy for a very low risk.
 
Rudeboy unless you're in the blinds you can fold for free. In a game of eight people you have three chances out of four to do so.
 
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