Do we need indicators?

[Forexmospherian]

Hi guys

Sorry - I promised the OP I would not come on this thread again as I did not want to take it off topic etc - but noticed my previous comments had not been removed - and so presume as long as I am specifically talking about Indicators then I hope he will not mind.

First of all - and Incorrect comment by Trader Allen -

All indicators lag and there are no exceptions everyone will get you in late.


As far as I am concerned - 100% INCORRECT - MASSIVE WRONG

I can provide so much proof that statement is totally wrong - its when you really don't know how to use them to produce a "leading edge" and of course most retail traders just don't know how to do it and are totally mislead by the commercial professionals

Talking about Professional; commercial traders - no disrespect - but most of them trained by the industry - are just not that good - that's why so many have been replaced by robots - because then you can get all the information you need in milliseconds and trade far more accurately.

For clarity - I am not talking about $99 or $199 retail bots - I am talking about properly developed multi million dollar super computer systems.

They will never be 100% accurate - as nothing can be if there are other multi million dollar bots competing against them - sometimes just as "spoilers"

The FX industry changed dramatically over the last 20 years with the internet and HFT.

Yes total naked charts can still give you trades - no problem - but they are just not so efficient - even if you have 20 /20 vision as so you will not get that extra 5 or 10 or even 20 pips off a successful trade that is possible from computers aid and technology

With regards getting in late on a trade - still not catching many scalps with 2 pip stops on 0 3pip spreads - but anything stop over 7 pips to me is just inefficient.

Accuracy rules to help improve your RR ratios - naked charts cannot give you that when you are short term intraday trading - which after all is far more profitable than long term or investment type trading.

Only my view - but had to say just don't put the average professional commercial trader on any pedestal - and just don't go with this rubbish that all indicators are lagging

OK - rant over - and nothing personal ;-)

Regards


F

 

[Forexmospherian]

I appreciate you and TRO are both vendors in a crowded marketplace and this sort of sniping is to be expected. But I'm confused about your comments on being stop-hunted by the sharks. You make it sound as if all the retail players place their bets the same way and the big boys know how they're going to play it and they line up to pick their pennies off the table.

I'm a novice, but even I know this is total rubbish when it comes to the forex market.

There simply isn't anyone who can shove the market around in the way you suggest. And it's not 'they' taking from 'us' - all there is a price and virtually unlimited liquidity at every level.

The other reason this is nonsense is that retail traders don't all trade the same way - that's the whole point. There's a cloud of punters long and a roughly equal number short along the distribution curve of open positions centered around the current price.

I gather you market an orderflow product which suggests you don't have that much experience or exposure to the forex market, so perhaps you should make clear precisely to which markets you're directing your comments to avoid any further confusion.

HI SD

Sorry would have to disagree with you - the EU which is one of the busier currency pairs is manipulated by both liquidity providers and players.

You can see it even happen at times - I don't mean they take it 200 -500 pips the wrong direction - but with regards to little tricks needed to - 3 -7 pip moves - that's easy for them to do - to get new trades on in the wrong direction and the stop hunting for say 25 -50 pips is common by larger players as well.

Why do they do it ?

They want the money ( off all) and can earn it that way.

Is it illegal ? - not by players - I mean there are no rules to say if you have 500 million you have to trade with the trend ;-)

Regards


F

 

[kimo'sabby]

Do we need indicators to assist our entries and exits?

If your approach is solely chart based then I don't think it really matters. You either use them or you don't, makes no odds.

 

[Sigma-D]

HI SD

Sorry would have to disagree with you - the EU which is one of the busier currency pairs is manipulated by both liquidity providers and players.

You can see it even happen at times - I don't mean they take it 200 -500 pips the wrong direction - but with regards to little tricks needed to - 3 -7 pip moves - that's easy for them to do - to get new trades on in the wrong direction and the stop hunting for say 25 -50 pips is common by larger players as well.

Why do they do it ?

They want the money ( off all) and can earn it that way.

Is it illegal ? - not by players - I mean there are no rules to say if you have 500 million you have to trade with the trend ;-)

Regards


F

For goodness sake. Do you really think The Money would sweat it for a crappy 7 pips?

They're not watching the screens 16 hours a day. They don't need to.

There's no bete noire out there except the one you bring to the party.

Unbelievable. I held you guys in high esteem and you don't really have a clue. I'm a total novice and yet it's bloody obvious.

 

[DionysusToast]

I appreciate you and TRO are both vendors in a crowded marketplace and this sort of sniping is to be expected.

Well - that just puts you in with the 95% of losing traders that randomly assign cause to an effect.

But I'm confused about your comments on being stop-hunted by the sharks. You make it sound as if all the retail players place their bets the same way and the big boys know how they're going to play it and they line up to pick their pennies off the table.

No - not all retail players place bets the same way - BUT - a lot of them bet like TRO and he just advised a bunch more to do the same and THAT is why I made the post. He's basically advising them to trade the worse spots.

Lets consider a major area that lots of traders are looking at. Now remember that we are not talking about one way markets as they are the exception more than the rule. Manipulation can only occur under certain circumstances - basically no-one can step in front of a freight train market.

As we move up to an 'obvious' area of resistance, many traders will fade it short. When that occurs the market is often made to look weak but will "catch" and stop moving down after a small move. Then it starts popping up and pokes through the old high, at that point the breakout traders start getting in and the reversal traders get stopped out. With that done, the market will then be pushed down and catch the breakout traders offside.

This is just one way that larger players are able to build positions.

I'm a novice, but even I know this is total rubbish when it comes to the forex market.

Well then you need to look again.

There simply isn't anyone who can shove the market around in the way you suggest. And it's not 'they' taking from 'us' - all there is a price and virtually unlimited liquidity at every level.

Nope - there is not unlimited liquidity at every level. If there was the market would never move. The market only ever moves when the liquidity at a level reduces to zero. If there is liquidity at a level, price will not move through it.

This is the basic mechanics of price movement.

The other reason this is nonsense is that retail traders don't all trade the same way - that's the whole point. There's a cloud of punters long and a roughly equal number short along the distribution curve of open positions centered around the current price.

Nope - not at these key areas. At these key areas you know very well there will be a lot of people fading it and a lot of people looking to play the breakout. This does not represent an equal number of anything. The times when there is an equal number of players is when you are in the middle of a range. When it's moving the least.

I gather you market an orderflow product which suggests you don't have that much experience or exposure to the forex market, so perhaps you should make clear precisely to which markets you're directing your comments to avoid any further confusion.

Nope - because the liquidity models are the same regardless of the markets. Once you understand the mechanics of price movement, that will become clear.

 

[DionysusToast]

I admit that it poses a problem because traders must, or should, put a safety stop somewhere. But if their choice is going to be covered by a market spike---where?

I don't think there is an answer to this.

You hear people say "dont put your stops where everyone else's is" - like under a swing low - but sometimes that's the logical spot.

 

[Sigma-D]

Nope - because the liquidity models are the same regardless of the markets.

I had to quote that just in case you realised what you had said and pulled it.

Cracked me up. I'm sure it will give others a laugh too.

Let me suggest you try and put the pieces of the jigsaw together before you comment further.

Embarrassing.

 

[Sigma-D]

I don't think there is an answer to this.

You hear people say "dont put your stops where everyone else's is" - like under a swing low - but sometimes that's the logical spot.

Oh for goodness sake. And you're a pro?

 

[DionysusToast]

Oh for goodness sake. And you're a pro?

Perhaps you could finish the following sentence off then....

"don't put your stops where everyone else's are but if that's the most logical spot, then....."

Eagerly awaiting your pearls of wisdom

 

[DionysusToast]

I had to quote that just in case you realised what you had said and pulled it.

Cracked me up. I'm sure it will give others a laugh too.

Let me suggest you try and put the pieces of the jigsaw together before you comment further.

Embarrassing.

This statement is absolutely true.

Price cannot move through a level if liquidity exists there. This is the same in all markets.

Your statement of infinite liquidity existing at all levels is way off the mark.

I know you are just trying to score points at this juncture but you have a major misunderstanding of the markets and this is one of the most basic mechanics of price movement.

 

[Splitlink]

Hi guys

Sorry - I promised the OP I would not come on this thread again as I did not want to take it off topic etc - but noticed my previous comments had not been removed - and so presume as long as I am specifically talking about Indicators then I hope he will not mind.

First of all - and Incorrect comment by Trader Allen -

All indicators lag and there are no exceptions everyone will get you in late.


As far as I am concerned - 100% INCORRECT - MASSIVE WRONG

I can provide so much proof that statement is totally wrong - its when you really don't know how to use them to produce a "leading edge" and of course most retail traders just don't know how to do it and are totally mislead by the commercial professionals

Talking about Professional; commercial traders - no disrespect - but most of them trained by the industry - are just not that good - that's why so many have been replaced by robots - because then you can get all the information you need in milliseconds and trade far more accurately.

For clarity - I am not talking about $99 or $199 retail bots - I am talking about properly developed multi million dollar super computer systems.

They will never be 100% accurate - as nothing can be if there are other multi million dollar bots competing against them - sometimes just as "spoilers"

The FX industry changed dramatically over the last 20 years with the internet and HFT.

Yes total naked charts can still give you trades - no problem - but they are just not so efficient - even if you have 20 /20 vision as so you will not get that extra 5 or 10 or even 20 pips off a successful trade that is possible from computers aid and technology

With regards getting in late on a trade - still not catching many scalps with 2 pip stops on 0 3pip spreads - but anything stop over 7 pips to me is just inefficient.

Accuracy rules to help improve your RR ratios - naked charts cannot give you that when you are short term intraday trading - which after all is far more profitable than long term or investment type trading.

Only my view - but had to say just don't put the average professional commercial trader on any pedestal - and just don't go with this rubbish that all indicators are lagging

OK - rant over - and nothing personal ;-)

Regards


F

I don't think that that kind of post will offend anyone. It is opinion and welcome. In any case, the thread is not mine just because I wrote the first post. That would be presumptious and, unlike you , I'm trying to get more humble as life goes on!