How To Make Big Money

[Lightning McQueen]

Jesse Livermore gives us a glimpse into his world of successes and failure, if with all our modern tools at our command we cannot emulate even a small part of his glory and avoid his pitfalls then something is badly amiss.

We, in our time have an unprecedented amount of knowledge at the click of a button, unprecedented (near) instant execution of our orders, unprecedented tools to observe the market and it's movement, how we use that mix is up to us as individuals

To make big money you have to up the risk and hit big but to stay safe and stay in the game you have to hit big with other peoples money.

Here's lightnings fledgling ideas and 5 point plan for hitting big and staying safe.

1. It's all in the entry

Get that entry right and the world is yours. Livermore's whole strategy has at its heart the theory of a stock passing it's pivotal point, and he could see this phenomenon of market dynamics by reading the tape and observing and noting the changes in the price. simple really.

2. Livermore pivotal entry points are not straight lines!

Livermore pivots are fixed points in time that the price pivots on in real time as you watch the action unfold. They are not straight lines generated by your charting software that may or may not signify a turning point at some point in the future.

3. Stops - if its not working get out!

If you find the entry going the wrong way and into negative territory why wait, stop it out. Livermore knew that if a stock wasn't acting as anticipated he would get out because his strategy was such that he knew his pivotal point entry was key and if it failed he knew he had entered the market in error at the wrong time, again simple really.

4. Stay in the trade for maximum profit

So we got the consistent good entry what next, staying in the trade for the max profit we can squeeze out of it, thats what. in other words stay in the trade until the momentum runs out of steam and the price flattens or a pivot appears for a move in the opposite direction. close out the trade and wait next entry point in the main trend or for extra bucks take a counter trend trade back to the mean (and possibly beyond) if a reversal pivotal point is apparent.

5. Maxing out the risk AKA no pain no big gain!

ok, the first trade or two are good. Now put some back into the capital base plus a little extra to grow the account. The rest we are now playing with other peoples money or the houses depending on platform. Our risk control can go out the window, preservation of capital has left the building folks!. By using the same sound strategy 1-4 we can now safely compound the gains on each successive trade to the max from the newly gained pot without fear of losing our capital base. Lost the risk pot? oops, well we simply start again with a little from the main pot which should have grown a bit if you had put a little aside from the obsene profits before the blow up.

Exotic car, gin palace, gorgeous babes and that country mansion retreat awaits the brave ...or the workhouse lol

*Never, ever, ever risk your capital base spanish style. Or any other style as it happens and please stay safe in the market.



"The fruits of your sucess will be in direct ratio to the honesty and sincerity of your own effort in keeping your own records, doing your own thinking and reaching your own conclusions" - Jesse Livermore, 1877-1940.

 

[trader_dante]

Firstly can I say that this is one of the best threads I have read on T2W.

I have spent a lot of time researching and reading up on JL - infact I am somewhat obsessed with him. I will be staying in New York at the Sherry Netherland this Christmas.

One thing that seems to connect the biggest traders and investors of our time is that they are not afraid to plunge - to take big risk when things lined up right. JL was actually known as the "boy plunger" in his youth because when he had tested the market by sending out one of his probes and the market was acting as he believed it should do before a big move was imminent, he would go in big.

Take Warren Buffet now. In 1962, Buffet was watching American Express. In a scandal involving one of AE's clients, its shares fell from $65 to $35 almost overnight. Buffet then made the decision to put 40% of his total assets ($13m) into AE stock. Over the next two years the shares tripled and he and his partners netted $20m in profit.

40% risk! And we have 2-3% per trade touted as the maximum amount that anyone should risk.

Well, as another poster pointed out, for every JL (who indeed went bankrupt) there are a whole list of failures BUT it seems to me that the people who made it big (regardless of whether they blew up later on) all made it taking big risk.

Dan Zanger (popularised as one of the greatest stock traders of our time - and indeed boasting incredible returns on capital) also uses ridiculous leverage to achieve his results. In other words, when the trade lines up, he goes in big.

But the one thing I would say is that you can do it without taking big risk to your capital base as LMC said above but rather by risking the markets money.

What you should aim to do is get 100% of your capital riding a trend.That is my constant aim whilst trading although opportunities to do so are extremely rare. Catching a trend and holding your position long enough to get all your capital into it (whilst making sure your risk constantly decreases and your reward increases) is very difficult and requires a huge deal of patience and discipline and a good knowledge of price action.

I remember posting this on FF a while back - showing how based on the Dax on a daily TF, with just a paltry £1 a tick as a starting position, you could have achieved a gain of well over £70,000 in one trade, just doubling up several times as the bull run progressed over six months and moving your stops so that you would come out with NO PROFIT on the trade if they were hit although your capital base would still remain intact. (original thread is here: Trading with 100% of your capital)

This is one of the hardest things to do. Who wants to see an open P&L of many thousands come out for nothing - even though you had nothing to begin with in the first place? That has always been the problem with Trend Following and the reason why it is very hard to do successfully: a trader has to be prepared to give back a significant portion, if not all, of their profits to capture a huge move and make a huge amount of money off it.

As an aside - I am trading for a charity at the moment and recording my results in my journal: something I never used to do but I have picked up from my prop firm (and it is touted among traders everywhere) is scaling out as targets get hit. I have come to the conclusion that this method of getting out because arbitrary targets are hit is largely BS.

I have had a close look at my first ten trades and documented how many pounds profit I achieved from them compared to how many pounds I could have made (from entry to highest possible profit before original stop was hit.)

I was giving myself a pat on the back for having made almost £1k from £40 before I saw that I could have had almost £4,500. And that is over 1 week. Imagine how much money you leave on the table over a year of trading.

 

[Aspire]

Firstly can I say that this is one of the best threads I have read on T2W.

I have spent a lot of time researching and reading up on JL - infact I am somewhat obsessed with him. I will be staying in New York at the Sherry Netherland this Christmas.

One thing that seems to connect the biggest traders and investors of our time is that they are not afraid to plunge - to take big risk when things lined up right. JL was actually known as the "boy plunger" in his youth because when he had tested the market by sending out one of his probes and the market was acting as he believed it should do before a big move was imminent, he would go in big.

Take Warren Buffet now. In 1962, Buffet was watching American Express. In a scandal involving one of AE's clients, its shares fell from $65 to $35 almost overnight. Buffet then made the decision to put 40% of his total assets ($13m) into AE stock. Over the next two years the shares tripled and he and his partners netted $20m in profit.

40% risk! And we have 2-3% per trade touted as the maximum amount that anyone should risk.

Well, as another poster pointed out, for every JL (who indeed went bankrupt) there are a whole list of failures BUT it seems to me that the people who made it big (regardless of whether they blew up later on) all made it taking big risk.

Dan Zanger (popularised as one of the greatest stock traders of our time - and indeed boasting incredible returns on capital) also uses ridiculous leverage to achieve his results. In other words, when the trade lines up, he goes in big.

But the one thing I would say is that you can do it without taking big risk to your capital base as LMC said above but rather by risking the markets money.

What you should aim to do is get 100% of your capital riding a trend.That is my constant aim whilst trading although opportunities to do so are extremely rare. Catching a trend and holding your position long enough to get all your capital into it (whilst making sure your risk constantly decreases and your reward increases) is very difficult and requires a huge deal of patience and discipline and a good knowledge of price action.

I remember posting this on FF a while back - showing how based on the Dax on a daily TF, with just a paltry £1 a tick as a starting position, you could have achieved a gain of well over £70,000 in one trade, just doubling up several times as the bull run progressed over six months and moving your stops so that you would come out with NO PROFIT on the trade if they were hit although your capital base would still remain intact. (original thread is here: Trading with 100% of your capital)

This is one of the hardest things to do. Who wants to see an open P&L of many thousands come out for nothing - even though you had nothing to begin with in the first place? That has always been the problem with Trend Following and the reason why it is very hard to do successfully: a trader has to be prepared to give back a significant portion, if not all, of their profits to capture a huge move and make a huge amount of money off it.

As an aside - I am trading for a charity at the moment and recording my results in my journal: something I never used to do but I have picked up from my prop firm (and it is touted among traders everywhere) is scaling out as targets get hit. I have come to the conclusion that this method of getting out because arbitrary targets are hit is largely BS.

I have had a close look at my first ten trades and documented how many pounds profit I achieved from them compared to how many pounds I could have made (from entry to highest possible profit before original stop was hit.)

I was giving myself a pat on the back for having made almost £1k from £40 before I saw that I could have had almost £4,500. And that is over 1 week. Imagine how much money you leave on the table over a year of trading.

So what your saying is that to make it big you need to grow some balls!

 

[Lightning McQueen]

and a 70's 'tache, chopper style :cheesy:

 

[options]

Yep, turning into quite a good discussion.

If any sentence or paragraph written anywhere helps you to look at your trading 'self' and improve some part of it, even without the writers knowledge or intent, then places such as this prove their worth.


"but I have picked up from my prop firm (and it is touted among traders everywhere) is scaling out as targets get hit. I have come to the conclusion that this method of getting out because arbitrary targets are hit is largely BS."

I have scaled 'in' on the occasions where I have been fortunate to get a run going. But have never scaled out. Preferring instead to take everything off the table in one go. Always with the thought that if price comes down to where my stop is or I don't 'feel' right about the trade, the price will carry on against me. I don't have a problem with this. But I do have to start all over. Where if I only take part off and the price does turn back and run again it is easy to add to. But it may also make me indecisive about the trade.

I think the intention when trades get to a 'target' point is to scale out so there is less risk to capital and the cash invested gets a free ride, then ride the last bit until it runs it's course. My view is if you are sure, stay in with the max amount. But get out and don't hesitate about doing it when 'your' point gets hit. Then look for something else.

I think the scaling out was intended for large traders to exit a trade when they thought the time was right stand aside completely, but they could not do so in one go. Because there was no one to take the other side of their trade.

 

[trader_dante]

So what your saying is that to make it big you need to grow some balls!

I am saying that you don't get as big as JL and Buffet by taking 2% risk per trade and cutting 1/2 at the first target 20 pips higher and letting "the other half run".

 

[options]

Nice charts from that link by the way TD Excellent trading strat.

 

[trader_dante]

Interestingly, he never took his own advice of putting some of his profit away from the market. Might have been his saving grace had he done so. Especially after the first collapse.

Then again, wouldn't he have pulled the savings out and carried on as normal?

Actually he did:

After I paid off all my debts in full . . . I put a pretty fair amount into annuities. I made up my mind I wasn't going to be strapped and uncomfortable and minus a stake ever again. Of course, after I married I put some money in trust for my wife. And after the boy came I put some in trust for him.

The reason I did this was not alone the fear that the stock market might take it away from me, but because I knew that a man will spend anything he can lay his hands on. By doing what I did my wife and child are safe from me.

More than one man I know has done the same thing, but has coaxed his wife to sign off when he needed the money, and he has lost it. But I have fixed it up so that no matter what I want or what my wife wants, that trust holds. It is absolutely safe from all attacks by either of us: safe from my market needs: safe even from a devoted wife's love. I'm taking no chances!

The quote above comes from a section on Livermore in Victor Niederhoffers book: "The Education of a Speculator".

I have included the section in its entirety below:

Lessons from Livermore

From an early age, I have been very cautious about accepting seemingly sensible advice. Martin, my grandfather, had the luck to be taken under the wing of Jesse Livermore, "the Boy Wonder" of Wall Street in the early 1900s. The two of them often traded together at bucket shops on New Street. Afterward, they frequently repaired to the music district where Martin doubtlessly introduced Jesse to pretty young things (a fatal proclivity of the Boy Wonder) at Waterson & Berlin, Irving Berlin's original firm, where Martin was Chief Financial Officer.

Martin idolized Livermore, as though the Boy Wonder were a blindfolded chess player or a composer without a keyboard. Livermore often traded stocks by the sound of the ticker tape, without seeing the prints. Yet Jesse was humble ("The only thing a man should do when he is wrong is cease to be wrong"), flexible ("There is a time for all things"), and selective ("You can beat the market in grains but not the grain market").

When the Boy Wonder had one of his superior insights, he had no hesitancy about going for the jugular. During the 1907 crash, a delegation from the Big Board had to beg the Boy Wonder to hold off his shorting because the stock market itself might cease to exist under his relentlessly accurate selling. Sensing, like Soros at a much later date, that it was in his own self-interest to allow the market to survive ("I'm a player in the market also"), he generously covered his shorts at the bottom.

So prudent was Jesse that he took account not only of his own potential weaknesses, but those of an all-too-devoted wife:

After I paid off all my debts in full . . . I put a pretty fair amount into annuities. I made up my mind I wasn't going to be strapped and uncomfortable and minus a stake ever again. Of course, after I married I put some money in trust for my wife. And after the boy came I put some in trust for him.

The reason I did this was not alone the fear that the stock market might take it away from me, but because I knew that a man will spend anything he can lay his hands on. By doing what I did my wife and child are safe from me.

More than one man I know has done the same thing, but has coaxed his wife to sign off when he needed the money, and he has lost it. But I have fixed it up so that no matter what I want or what my wife wants, that trust holds. It is absolutely safe from all attacks by either of us: safe from my market needs: safe even from a devoted wife's love. I'm taking no chances!

Livermore's insights are so timeless in their wisdom that I have collected some of them in Table 1-1. They read like a compilation of nuggets from one of the market magician books that are so popular today. Funds supervised by the best of these magicians are currently sold to the public today. Unfortunately, new tricks are always required to stay on top.

The only problem with Martin's reminiscences of the Boy Wonder's genius was the omission of a crucial fact. Jesse had gone bankrupt at least three times before the 1929 crash. He put his last chips in during the early 1930s and was wiped out. He flitted around Wall Street for another ten years, trying to scare up another stake. Finally, near the wolf point, he tried to recoup by selling a book of his insights. When that failed too, he gave up, penned an eight-page suicide letter at the Sherry-Netherland Hotel, and blew his brains out in the hatcheck room in 1940.

 

[trader_dante]

One more quote from Niederhoffer which kind of sums up this whole thread really:

"When I first started speculating in organised markets, I quickly ran a $40,000 initial stake into $22 million. My technique was simple: I bought gold at $290. Each time it went up $10, I pyramided and added to my holdings with my profits"

 

[BSD]

What people don't get...

is that compounding is what this is all about...

there are old traders...

there are bold traders...

but, it is just as true...

there are no old and bold traders.

Anyone trading anything below say 100 mill. should be able to make around 20% on their capital per month on average risking no more than than 1% per trade.

Guess what, ladies and gentlemen:

Gunslingers that blow up and are never heard of from after a couple of years will laugh at risking no more than one percent per trade, but through the real secret behind getting rich, not some esoteric entry or exit secrets, no, the real secret is compounding, a mere 20% per month adds up to almost 800% in a year !!!

Keep compounding at that rate a few years, even keeping in mind that such returns will eventually decline as you keep getting bigger, but you are still on your path to becoming one of the richest persons on this planet.

Risking no more than 1% per trade.

But thats because you got what this is all about:

Surviving to stay in the game, while getting rich through long term Compounding !

 

[Lee Shepherd]

I'l state my position then the reason.

I don't like Jesse Livermore as a trader at all, heres the reasons:

He took enormous risk, for every JL and W.Buffett there are thousands upon thousands that do not make it by taking the same risk, it just dont pay off, timing was wrong, entry, exits ect, account size ect.

My question is, and this is an individual personal one which kinda rules out the gambler to the more consistant trader:

Why would anyone want to risk (whatever they have on account) what they would deem as a sizable account on something that has the same chance of winning as the lottery, the lottery is only one pound in the hope to win big so they can replicate the same again and again and again, just like an accumalative bet in the hope they are lucky enough on those occassions to become the size of these people(or close to it)?


My reasoning is that I trade for my money, nothing else, I would be horrified to even allow me to trade out of range or even risk it to throw all that I have built up away on bankruptcy, in fact it would horrify me to lose my job and have to find alternative work for which I am not aclimatised to. Maybe this is my old consistant manor, but I would rather have consistant money doing my job trading than risking my job, house and everything else, in fact just my job will do on the hope that this one trade pulls off.

Risk management is there for a reason, so is trading limits and stops, JL and WB had none of these, it was practically all or nothing on many occassions.

Although this post will provoke many a comeback I'm sure, please bear in mind this is my personal opinion and is based on what I've learnt over the years from these two in particular and from trading my own account over the years.

My definition:
High risk/high return/high consistant blow out rate
or
Low risk/steady and consistant returns and survival.

 

[options]

Firstly, on a lighter note. (Or maybe not). Why some of those 95% blow out.

Taken from a swing trading site.
Top 10 Ways To Lose All The Money In Your Trading Account In 30 Days Or Less - Guaranteed!

#10 - Put all of your efforts into finding the perfect technical indicator. Once you find this magical indicator, it will be like turning on a water faucet. Go all in. The money will just flow into your account!
#9 - When your technical indicator says that the stock is oversold, BUY IT RIGHT THEN. Always do what your technical indicator says to do. It takes precedence over price action.
#8 - Make sure to visit a lot of stock trading forums and ask them for hot stock tips. Also, ask all your friends and family for stock tips. They are usually right, and acting on these tips can make you very rich.
#7 - Watch what other traders do and be sure to follow the crowd. After all, they have been trading a lot longer than you so naturally they are smarter.
#6 - Pay very close attention to the fundamentals of a company. You MUST know the P/E ratio, book value, profit margins, etc. Once you find a "good company", consider going on margin to pay for shares in their stock.
#5 - Forget about developing a trading plan. If you see a good stock just buy it. Don't worry about when your going to sell. No need to get caught up in the details. Besides, you'll probably get rich the first year of trading anyway.
#4 - Buy expensive computers and trading software. While your at it, buy a couple more TV's so that you can watch CNBC on multiple screens! You NEED all of these gadgets in order to trade stocks successfully. Then watch the money roll in!
#3 - Always follow your emotions. They are there for a reason. If you feel nervous, sell the stock! If you are excited, buy more shares. This is the best way to trade stocks and fatten up your trading account.
#2 - Don't worry about using stop loss orders. When the time comes, you will be able to sell your shares and take a loss. Your emotions won't even come into play. Besides, stop loss orders are for sissies!
#1 - Absolutely, without a doubt, FORGET about managing your money. Don't worry about how much you can lose on a trade. Only think about how much loot your gonna make. Then start planning that trip to Fiji!
Well, there you have it - my top 10 tips for new traders.
This list was easy to write.
I followed them all when I first started trading.

 

[options]

I'l state my position then the reason.

I don't like Jesse Livermore as a trader at all, heres the reasons:

He took enormous risk, for every JL and W.Buffett there are thousands upon thousands that do not make it by taking the same risk, it just dont pay off, timing was wrong, entry, exits ect, account size ect.

My question is, and this is an individual personal one which kinda rules out the gambler to the more consistant trader:

Why would anyone want to risk (whatever they have on account) what they would deem as a sizable account on something that has the same chance of winning as the lottery, the lottery is only one pound in the hope to win big so they can replicate the same again and again and again, just like an accumalative bet in the hope they are lucky enough on those occassions to become the size of these people(or close to it)?


My reasoning is that I trade for my money, nothing else, I would be horrified to even allow me to trade out of range or even risk it to throw all that I have built up away on bankruptcy, in fact it would horrify me to lose my job and have to find alternative work for which I am not aclimatised to. Maybe this is my old consistant manor, but I would rather have consistant money doing my job trading than risking my job, house and everything else, in fact just my job will do on the hope that this one trade pulls off.

Risk management is there for a reason, so is trading limits and stops, JL and WB had none of these, it was practically all or nothing on many occassions.

Although this post will provoke many a comeback I'm sure, please bear in mind this is my personal opinion and is based on what I've learnt over the years from these two in particular and from trading my own account over the years.

My definition:
High risk/high return/high consistant blow out rate
or
Low risk/steady and consistant returns and survival.

Lee.

Yes, your own personal view, but I think your are missing the point of the thread. Which was How to make big money. Not who has the safest trading strategy.
Trader Dante has shown how it is perfectly possible to make 'adequate' returns on a very low sum by adding to a trending position instead of taking off. And BSD has explained it further with the compounding post.
It is only by adding to a running profitable trend that you will make the most money. It is also very hard to do in practise.

Lots of people do blow out by going all in, but the difference between JL and WB is they had/have an inkling of what they were/are doing.

 

[searchlight]

I came to the conclusion some time ago that ; Although from the outset it appears to be
both side of the argument discussing the same thing , but they are not.
If you are looking from the trading for a living perspective naturally you are very "conservative" and you don't want to put your "living" in what you perceive to be in risk that; unnecessary to achieve that aim.
If you you are looking from the trading for a winning big perspective what is a very prudent approach for trading for a living simply won't do. You have to have a different risk appetite and %1-2 of allocation of trading capital will not help to achieve your aim of "winning big". Unless of course you have a very big capital to start with. if this the case why you are reading this. Get a life...

 

[wasp]

Personally, I am risk averse. I don't risk only 1% of my entire capital per trade, but never more than 4%.

I always add to my positions throughout every trade, ensuring the original larger size position vs the smaller additions always means should the trend end, I am not any more out of pocket than should the position been a loss from the start.

I have never understood the whole take profit in 3 parts/let the last part run till close. That's for those who have no idea and they do that because they have no faith, understanding about where price is going so through fear, they want to take profits asap. It's as bad as taking a profit as soon as it goes a few pips just so they have the feeling of a win occasionally. Its people who have concentrated on entries, but really haven't got a clue where its going or at least how to manage a position.

I differ slightly from TD in that I don't run trends and hold and compound as long as possible, I am in every swing back and forth intraday and rarely miss a pip, trend or move and only have small compounds en route.

It is easy to become the next WB or JL without risking any more than 2-4% at any point through compounding and not scaling out.

To not do it is madness!

 

[trader_dante]

What people don't get...

is that compounding is what this is all about...

there are old traders...

there are bold traders...

but, it is just as true...

there are no old and bold traders.

Anyone trading anything below say 100 mill. should be able to make around 20% on their capital per month on average risking no more than than 1% per trade.

Guess what, ladies and gentlemen:

Gunslingers that blow up and are never heard of from after a couple of years will laugh at risking no more than one percent per trade, but through the real secret behind getting rich, not some esoteric entry or exit secrets, no, the real secret is compounding, a mere 20% per month adds up to almost 800% in a year !!!

Keep compounding at that rate a few years, even keeping in mind that such returns will eventually decline as you keep getting bigger, but you are still on your path to becoming one of the richest persons on this planet.

Risking no more than 1% per trade.

But thats because you got what this is all about:

Surviving to stay in the game, while getting rich through long term Compounding !

I agree with you BSD but the problem is, is that to compound you need to keep money in your account so your size is consistently increasing. Now people that are trying to make a living in this business are in a real fix because they need to take money out to live. At the same time as having this dilemma, they need to be very conservative because they cannot afford to lose their pot as they rely on it as a means of bringing food to the table. That is why, if you trade for a living it will be very hard to ever become like JL or Buffet or indeed any of the others that made it big.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having two accounts. One that you trade for income and one that you trade for big returns. This is what I do.

 

[wasp]

I don't think there is anything wrong with having two accounts. One that you trade for income and one that you trade for big returns. This is what I do.

Agree, I think its paramount to have 2 accounts. I have one that pays my wages and the other I build up. You can still run that 2nd one without taking huge risks though, quite the opposite.

 

[Priceman]

Definition?

Has anyone defined what 'big' means yet? Big to me may be £10mill or even £1000. Are we talking just retail trader or institution? Every person in the market will have different targets and goals. Everyones needs are different and as long as you can quantify your 'big' then that's all well and good.

Would anyone stop once they hit a million account and live off the interest? They'd probably already be living to that millionaires lifestyle and then need to keep up the trading to maintain it.

 

[jiggly]

I'm glad i started this thread, there are some excellent contributions, thanks to everyone for their participation, for the little insight into your own personal money management styles and ideas.


I think what trader dante is talking about makes a lot of sense, compounding along with scaling into a position with the houses money is the way to make big bains without further risk to your own capital. Its just about being patient and disciplined to play the waiting game and consitently doing the right thing at the right time.

how many times i have entered a position at the best time before a spectacular collapse only to take profits early as opposed to changing my mentality and looking to add to it a wait. all the while i will trade in and out of long term trends and come out with far less or if not nothing from the major move.

as an example i made this call a while ago, calling the spectacular short on the cable, but i did not act in my own best interests, check out post number 17 on the thread below and you will see what i mean....
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex-discussion/30574-forex-2008-a-2.html#post418014

 

[wasp]

Has anyone defined what 'big' means yet? Big to me may be £10mill or even £1000. Are we talking just retail trader or institution? Every person in the market will have different targets and goals. Everyones needs are different and as long as you can quantify your 'big' then that's all well and good.

Would anyone stop once they hit a million account and live off the interest? They'd probably already be living to that millionaires lifestyle and then need to keep up the trading to maintain it.

I was only thinking 200k

I will personally be happy with £35mn through my calculations but what is big....?

Warren Buffet > est worth £ 32 billion
Bill Gates > est worth est £ 30 billion
Roman Abromavich > est worth £ 10 billion

Seems to me that anything less than a few billion is pocket change.

Which reminds me, you still owe me a couple Options, she wasn't free you know!