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FAQ How Long Does it Take to Make a Stable Income from Trading?

I wonder what the average length of time it takes for those that are intent on making it a significant proportion of their monthly income.

And I wonder what journeys these people have taken to get there, are their journeys all different or is there a common theme where the same experiences are shared, but in isolation.

I wonder what the evolutionary journey of a trader that reaches the monthly income goal actually is. And how ordinary or not these traders are.

I've posted this before, but it won't hurt to post it again:

How long it takes to become a consistently-profitable trader depends in large part on how many detours the wannabe takes, how many dead-ends he winds up in, how susceptible he is to the con. If he's blessed with common sense, a finely-tuned bull**** detector, and a basic understanding of what an auction is, it will take far less time than if the beginner takes many detours, is easily snowed, has little or no common sense, has no idea how an auction market works, and has "psychological issues" playing Monopoly, much less trading the markets. In the latter case, he will very likely spend years trying to cobble something together, at least until he runs out of money.

The trust that beginners place in what they read in books and online and hear in seminars and courses and on CDs and DVDs is at the very least puzzling. Without having the least idea whether Joe or Mary is a successful real-time trader or even can trade at all, the beginner will invest years of his time following these messiahs, and often invest thousands of his dollars as well. He can't or won't apply his own intelligence to the task and determine for himself whether what he's being fed is twaddle or not. He will, for example, believe with the fervency of the zealot that expectancy is critical and that entries don't matter, even though expectancy’s chief proponent can't trade his way out of a paper bag.

The beginner cannot trust anyone, regardless of who that anyone is, how many posts/blogs/articles he's got, how many thanks he's got, how many times he's been nominated for Post Of The Month, whether or not he's a moderator, how long he says he's been trading, what kind of or how much experience he claims he has, what he says his results are. That guru the beginner follows so devotedly could very well be a teen-aged girl posting messages with her parents' laptop. But the beginner doesn't have to trust anyone or anything but himself. What with replay, the beginner can test any idea he encounters or dreams up and determine whether or not there's anything to it in no time at all. If he is intelligent and sensible, he may make that determination in even less time than that.

It is ironic that those who want the most the fastest with the least amount of work wind up with the least and spend the longest time getting it, usually with more work than if they'd had a proper start to begin with. There is simply no getting around the fact that the beginner must have an edge. There is no amount of work or dedication or counseling or expenditure that will turn a losing strategy into a profitable one. Nor can the beginner assume that if he instead chooses to buy something that is purportedly successful for somebody else that it will be successful for him, even if he has indisputable evidence that that somebody else is in fact successful with whatever system or indicator or strategy it may be.

You will read, or hear, that it takes “years” to learn how to trade, much less become consistently profitable: “I've been trading for years and have not yet proven to be able to make a living. I’ve been working on it full-time for about 17 months but I’m not yet profitable. The costs so far have been several blown-up accounts and a lot of pain.” Or you may read some variant of “Took me three years (or five or seven or whatever) even to get to breakeven (therefore it will take three years – or five or seven – for anybody to get to where I am).” You will read that study and practice and simtrading (paper trading) are a waste of time, that you’ve got to have “skin in the game”, that you can learn to trade only by trading, using money that you “can afford to lose”, advice proferred by those who’ve spent years at it and even at their writing may not be consistently profitable, much less making a living off their trading, well past the point of trading with money they can afford to lose, but if they can persuade others to follow the same path, perhaps they won’t feel so stupid. Or, another favorite, “it takes 10,000 hours to learn how to trade” (actually, this particular meme originated with the amount of time it takes to master the violin and has nothing to do with trading). You will read tales of the courses taken, the DVDs and software purchased, the indicators tried and tossed, the mountains of books read, the trading rooms, the news feeds, the blogs, the newsletters, the alert services, the plug-ins. But you will rarely, if ever, read or hear of studying the market, the subject and object of all this endeavor. No books, DVDs, YouTube videos, complimentary training sessions. Just the student and a free, streaming chart, a legal pad, and a box of pencils (or pens, if you prefer).

And if one is eager, he can investigate brokers and services which provide “replay”, sometimes for free (at least on a trial basis, which can often be extended). And if one determines that the first 90 minutes of the trading session are generally the most active and potentially the most profitable, he can replay two sessions of 90 minutes each in one evening. If he plays them at 2X (two times normal speed), he can cover them in 90 minutes total. That is at least 14 sessions in one week. And as there are 250 trading days in a year, he can cover that year in 18 weeks. Four-and-a-half months. And if he logs in extra sessions on the weekends, he can cover a year in even less than that. And at the end of this time, if he has not done so already, he will be in a position to begin formulating a trading plan.
 
It's a failed strategy, look for reversal trades after trendline overshoots and 3 possible exhaustion waves when price has deviated far beyond fast moving averages and 2 standard deviations of VWAP or look for with-trend trades away from slower moving averages and VWAP 2 dev when the short-term momentum suggests trend follow through rather than mean reversion is more likely.

dbphoenix, the reason why it's not so obvious what a small retail trader's goals are is I am aware of your reputation, that you are primarily a trading vendor and not a trader who extracts stable income from trading. Successfully trading the NQ for stable income requires very precise entries and wide and tight stops at times, something much easier said than done, especially with retail commission costs.

I got lost here, could you please be more clear...

Do you mean to look for reversal with a trendine break, then an overshoot of the recent high followed by 3 pushes up or a wedge? and what does VWAP stand for? thanks.
 
give it a few years

though of course making a iving is dependent on the size of your capital irrespective of how good a trader you are. aim to have more capital than needed and undertrade to meet your targets.
 
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I got lost here, could you please be more clear...

Do you mean to look for reversal with a trendine break, then an overshoot of the recent high followed by 3 pushes up or a wedge? and what does VWAP stand for? thanks.

An overshoot of a trendline, usually you can count 3 waves or pushes on a 5 min chart intraday on futures after you see an extreme move...turns out this was just a new leg down in a downtrend more often than exhaustion, utterly unreliable strategy, only useful for marketing to newbies who haven't had their pockets drained by the markey yet, as Db_Phoenix knows I'm sure. VWAP is volume-weighted average price, the standard deviations of VWAP can be useful on a stock like AAPL but futures moves too fast and chaotically based on orderbook predatory algos and the like.
 
though of course making a iving is dependent on the size of your capital irrespective of how good a trader you are. aim to have more capital than needed and undertrade to meet your targets.

True, there are a lot of aspects which makes it different for everyone.
 
though of course making a iving is dependent on the size of your capital irrespective of how good a trader you are. aim to have more capital than needed and undertrade to meet your targets.

I'm not sure anyone "trades for a living" as in trading is their consistent and only source of income. Veteran traders like Dbphoenix and DionysusToast are trading vendors because they know where consistent income in trading comes from, it is in the marketing side. If you look at Collective2 the people with profitable strategies are selling them for $299 a month and the like because they know that past performance is not indicative of future results. Trading, especially in the age of artificial intelligence, is ipso facto not a reliable source of stable income unless you are a trading vendor.
 
If you look at Collective2 the people with profitable strategies are selling them for $299 a month and the like because they know that past performance is not indicative of future results.

Perhaps a bit like the Gold Rush where the blokes who made the money were the ones selling shovels. :LOL:
 
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I'm not sure anyone "trades for a living" as in trading is their consistent and only source of income. Veteran traders like Dbphoenix and DionysusToast are trading vendors because they know where consistent income in trading comes from, it is in the marketing side. If you look at Collective2 the people with profitable strategies are selling them for $299 a month and the like because they know that past performance is not indicative of future results. Trading, especially in the age of artificial intelligence, is ipso facto not a reliable source of stable income unless you are a trading vendor.

I can assure you there are many people that trade for a living.
 
I can assure you there are many people that trade for a living.

Do you have evidence that people successfully trade for a living, i.e. traders can produce for 5 years or more a stable and consistent and sole income from trading?
 
Do you have evidence that people successfully trade for a living, i.e. traders can produce for 5 years or more a stable and consistent and sole income from trading?

Because If you cant do that Mr Glyder then I will take it that I am clearly right when I say that noone makes money trading! Even if you did produce such evidence id shift my argument in another direction in order to protect my prize.
I need this because I dont make money trading, and the notion that anyone else can is too much for my ego to bare.

6099-darktone-albums-general-6-picture4640-blinkies.jpg
 
Why are you making ad hominems and red herrings? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, by all means, please share links to verified broker statements of traders who consistently trade for a living,, I'd love to see it, if you want to be snarky...my id..ego and super ego would love to see it.
 
Trading is ipso facto not a source of stable income. Please disprove my thesis if you disagree.

My last response was deletd by the forum controller.
So I'll try to be more polite & understanding. See where it gets me.

I understand if you have had several or many failures that you think profitable trading is not possible. We all go through that.Lots of it. The winners are those that stick with, find their edge and stick with it to come out the end of the long learning process profitably.

No one will show their accounts online, for many reasons and mostly cos they owe you nothing at all. It is far from reasonable for you to ask or expect that. You lose real world credibility by asking. The cornershop won't show you their accounts, nor your mates, nor your neighbours nor anyone who trades. Dont expect it. Thats not to say you cant find evidence of trading success. Thats your job to find it if you can.
But it would do little to help you trade succcesfully.
That is your job and no one elses. There is enough help and assistance on this and other forums for you to be able to master trading but you must also master yourself. Right now it seems you arent doing that.

Trading is very much a matter of self belief. To quote / paraphrase Henry Ford, .. "whether you think you can or whether you think you cant you are probably right".

Try looking at bbmacs presentation to see how a trading method works. I'm not saying copy it - what works for one traders dont necessarily work for another. But there's a wealth of info and experience in there.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...free-seminar-london-sat-29-jan-2011-a-13.html
 
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Why are you making ad hominems and red herrings? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, by all means, please share links to verified broker statements of traders who consistently trade for a living,, I'd love to see it, if you want to be snarky...my id..ego and super ego would love to see it.

But would you tho? Lets say you were sat next to a top tarder as he was happily pipping away raking profits. How would you view the experience? What action might you take?

Might you choose to re evaluate your view and explore?

"See, Its not so hard really Pete"
"I have to say based on what youve just shown me, ive got no option but to reevaluate what im doing. You mind if I come back sometime to find out more?"

or would you get the ole stamp out?

"See, Its not so hard really Pete"
"You cant trade like that for long before the algos get you! Just like they got me!"
"But ive been trading like this for years Pete :confused:"
"Wheres your statement for all these years!?"
"Well its not something I carry around with me, but I can bring up the blotter for the blah blah acc. Ive been using them the last couple years. Last year was a....."
"Thats not broker verified Im afraid!"
"Well, ask my risk manager Idy, hes right t......"
"Aha! Another red herring just as I suspected. Good day to you Mr Jimmy and take my advice before you lose all your cash. The algos are everywhere! EVERYWHERE!!"

Evidence is no match for a strong belief pete.
 
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My last response was deletd by the forum controller.
So I'll try to be more polite & understanding. See where it gets me.

I understand if you have had several or many failures that you think profitable trading is not possible. We all go through that.Lots of it. The winners are those that stick with, find their edge and stick with it to come out the end of the long learning process profitably.

No one will show their accounts online, for many reasons and mostly cos they owe you nothing at all. It is far from reasonable for you to ask or expect that. You lose real world credibility by asking. The cornershop won't show you their accounts, nor your mates, nor your neighbours nor anyone who trades. Dont expect it. Thats not to say you cant find evidence of trading success. Thats your job to find it if you can.
But it would do little to help you trade succcesfully.
That is your job and no one elses. There is enough help and assistance on this and other forums for you to be able to master trading but you must also master yourself. Right now it seems you arent doing that.

Trading is very much a matter of self belief. To quote / paraphrase Henry Ford, .. "whether you think you can or whether you think you cant you are probably right".

Try looking at bbmacs presentation to see how a trading method works. I'm not saying copy it - what works for one traders dont necessarily work for another. But there's a wealth of info and experience in there.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...free-seminar-london-sat-29-jan-2011-a-13.html


The trading environment is constantly in a state of change and evolution, unlike in typical skill-based occupations. The skills learned in trading the ES futures in 1998-2002 could actually work against a trader in current markets, due to the change in the price behavior with institutional algorithms replacing pit and retail traders and other changing dynamics.

The change in price behavior over the past two decades is somewhat analogous to an experienced and veteran pilot being told he must now always fly planes upside down due changing weather conditions. If you're using an outdated plane to fly in a new environment your failure is highly probable to the fact that your plane was not designed for this purpose and your past experience works against you in the new environment.

This explains why there is little evidence of consistent success in trading...the chance of stable success when an environment is constantly in a state of change is statistically very small, the longer you trade the less likely you would be able to continue having success, unlike in other fields where past experience contributes greatly to stable returns projected into the future.
 
The trading environment is constantly in a state of change and evolution, unlike in typical skill-based occupations. The skills learned in trading the ES futures in 1998-2002 could actually work against a trader in current markets, due to the change in the price behavior with institutional algorithms replacing pit and retail traders and other changing dynamics.

The change in price behavior over the past two decades is somewhat analogous to an experienced and veteran pilot being told he must now always fly planes upside down due changing weather conditions. If you're using an outdated plane to fly in a new environment your failure is highly probable to the fact that your plane was not designed for this purpose and your past experience works against you in the new environment.

This explains why there is little evidence of consistent success in trading...the chance of stable success when an environment is constantly in a state of change is statistically very small, the longer you trade the less likely you would be able to continue having success, unlike in other fields where past experience contributes greatly to stable returns projected into the future.

Exactly the reason why we evolve with it while trading our favored conditions.

Who cares about the two decades behind us, the here & now is all that matters.
 
The trading environment is constantly in a state of change and evolution, unlike in typical skill-based occupations. The skills learned in trading the ES futures in 1998-2002 could actually work against a trader in current markets, due to the change in the price behavior with institutional algorithms replacing pit and retail traders and other changing dynamics.

The change in price behavior over the past two decades is somewhat analogous to an experienced and veteran pilot being told he must now always fly planes upside down due changing weather conditions. If you're using an outdated plane to fly in a new environment your failure is highly probable to the fact that your plane was not designed for this purpose and your past experience works against you in the new environment.

This explains why there is little evidence of consistent success in trading...the chance of stable success when an environment is constantly in a state of change is statistically very small, the longer you trade the less likely you would be able to continue having success, unlike in other fields where past experience contributes greatly to stable returns projected into the future.

Blah blah. There are winners and losers - seems you have taken your pick.
I've given enough time here, I'm getting nothing worthwhile from this.
 
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