GREY1 P/L daily

Just to get a little reality check on all this - leovirgo has about as much chance of piecing together what Grey1 does from the posts on these threads as I do of understanding how tartan was invented by looking up a Scotsman's kilt.

Even those that have seen Grey1 trade have difficulty putting it all together.

I just about hung on to vwap V1.0 a couple of years back - and trade it - Bramble -style successfully to this day. Thanks Iraj.

But to intimate you can get all you need to trade vwap V2.0 successfully rom these forums is not only incorrect, but harmful.

All you're getting is the end result of a black box - not the thinking that went into devising it - and trading it.
 
evostik said:
Hi LevII. Out if interest, which of Van Tharp's books are you refering too please. He has published a few.

Thanks

Steve
Trade your way to financial freedom
 
TheBramble said:
Just to get a little reality check on all this - leovirgo has about as much chance of piecing together what Grey1 does from the posts on these threads as I do of understanding how tartan was invented by looking up a Scotsman's kilt.

Even those that have seen Grey1 trade have difficulty putting it all together.

I just about hung on to vwap V1.0 a couple of years back - and trade it - Bramble -style successfully to this day. Thanks Iraj.

But to intimate you can get all you need to trade vwap V2.0 successfully rom these forums is not only incorrect, but harmful.

All you're getting is the end result of a black box - not the thinking that went into devising it - and trading it.
Come off it Bramble my friend, G1 has explained here (repeatedly) a number of his methods, including 'V2'. Both the thinking that went into devising those methods and trading them have been explained in cosiderable detail.

For those who can be bothered to look this forum contains at worst most of the ingredients of a successful trading business.
 
LevII said:
Leo,

You don't look silly at all just, perhaps, expecting a bit too much.

If you take the time carefully to read and digest the material posted in this forum you will have most of if not all the answers.

When you have a moment have a look at Van Tharp's book. There is a small section where he discusses how, with correct position sizing and risk control, regular profits can be made from random entries. Appreciate that then forget the search for the perfect entry - it does not exist. Forget the search for the perfect exit - it does not exist. Concentrate instead on developing a strategy with a positive expectancy then make the most of it with tight risk control.

Hi LevII,

Thanks for your comments. I have read Van Tharp's book and I have also compiled and studied Grey1's posts into a word doc. That's why further questions occur to me. I can totally understand if Grey1 can't or won't answer my questions. That is his decision. Besides, I am not the only one asking questions here. I just want to enhance my understanding about Grey1's approach to stock trading.

I feel that what you were preaching me was a bit off tangent from my very first questions to Grey1.

My very first question was if there were any TA filter in addition to Price vs VWAP.
Actually Grey1 has already answered them. And my futher question was if my understanding about MPD bands was correct and complete. Kako has kindly commented. I thought that concluded the matters. regards,..
 
leovirgo said:
Hi LevII,

Thanks for your comments. I have read Van Tharp's book and I have also compiled and studied Grey1's posts into a word doc. That's why further questions occur to me. I can totally understand if Grey1 can't or won't answer my questions. That is his decision. Besides, I am not the only one asking questions here. I just want to enhance my understanding about Grey1's approach to stock trading.

I feel that what you were preaching me was a bit off tangent from my very first questions to Grey1.

My very first question was if there were any TA filter in addition to Price vs VWAP.
Actually Grey1 has already answered them. And my futher question was if my understanding about MPD bands was correct and complete. Kako has kindly commented. I thought that concluded the matters. regards,..
Hi Leo,

For others who may have similar questions does the approach G1 has time and again advocated not simpy come to this:-

1. Take a top down approach, market first then specific stock.
2. Trade only in stocks with good liquidity and daily range.
3. Enter based on signals from your choice of 'indicator' (in G1's case a modified version of Darvas's method) but stay out if the risk is too great (established by referring to MPD levels and an oscillator in multiple time frames). Be aware that in directional trading MPD levels are risk not trading levels.
4. Size your position in accordance with the size of your account, the amount you wish to put at risk and the volatility of the instrument.
5. Scale out of the position either on monetary stops or as your tecnical 'indicators' turn against your position.
6. Nothing more to it except years of experience and the psycologically sound attitude of a trader who knows he will succeed.

Where Bramble is wholly off beam is in thinking G1's contributions amount to no more than publishing "the end result of a black box - not the thinking that went into devising it - and trading it." In fact we have the exact opposite - namely the benefit, freely given, of G1's considerable intellect and experience. I hope others are as grateful as I am.
 
Hi

i'd double Lev II's above Post.
i don't like this kind of posts/attitude here, as this is a private forum, and ofcourse we are here to learn.
if u remember this forum putted again to private sometimes ago because of that kind of posts, no offence here to any1; but i believe it's very rare opportunity for any trader to have access to such this source of experience/Realtime profit posting(!) and keen to teach teacher and a gold mine forum like tech Trader. it'd be better to be grateful if we find it useful, and not contribute unkind words if we don't.

as a proof i invite every1 to this thread:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3585
look @ the time of posting that material !! :) it's there if u'r willing to read/learn/invest ur time... all of Tech. trader forum is full of repeatedly answered same questions. i don't believe there won't be any new question, but many of them been answered before.

Regards
....................................
Kako
 
LevII, I've taken the liberty of combining a couple of comments from two of your posts.

It always grabs my attention when someone I respect takes what I post in a way quite contrary to my intention. Communication is 100% the responsibility of the communicator - in this case, me. And if you 'got it' differently to how I 'meant it', I need to remedy my mistake.

First, and most important, I am as grateful as anyone for the significant efforts Grey1 has expended in helping other traders. I haven't done any analysis, but I have a sense there is more bang for your buck post-per-post in this forum than those in the rest of the site's forums combined. I still use Grey1's vwap V1 strats, (though slightly modified to take into account the impact of increasing interest in and usage of vwap in the market and to accommodate my personal trading style). So vwap V1 (mod. TB) still forms an integral part of my trading arsenal. I owe Grey1 for that and for many other instances of his significant help in developing my trading education. As I do to a number of other members too. So, hopefully, any sense that I was downplaying Grey1's generosity has hopefully been rectified. OK, that's the most important part out of the way.

LevII said:
Come off it Bramble my friend, G1 has explained here (repeatedly) a number of his methods, including 'V2'. Both the thinking that went into devising those methods and trading them have been explained in cosiderable detail.
I agree. Completely. He has gone into considerable detail and I am picking up a lot of new stuff to think about and play with. Just as I am sure we all are. And not just in relation to vwap, but his comments on market behaviour in general and on the specifics provide invaluable insights.

LevII said:
For those who can be bothered to look this forum contains at worst most of the ingredients of a successful trading business.
True as well. Grey1 has covered not just the mechanics of trading (pairs, vwap etc) but also Risk and Money Management and Position Sizing among many other topics. All vital aspects of a profitable trading business. And maybe there is in this comment of yours the germ of what it is that I might have been missing. Perhaps I haven't been sufficiently diligent in cranking out the most benefit from these posts and have missed a significant or perhaps even vital aspect in relation to the design of a vwap engine. I'm willing to accept that as a possibility and one that can be readily remedied. By my actively and purposefully reading through them all again.


LevII said:
Where Bramble is wholly off beam is in thinking G1's contributions amount to no more than publishing "the end result of a black box - not the thinking that went into devising it - and trading it." In fact we have the exact opposite - namely the benefit, freely given, of G1's considerable intellect and experience. I hope others are as grateful as I am.
I've covered grateful, and generous and valuable contribution already, and so to the kernel of what I was so hopelessly trying to express in my earlier post.

With the best will in the world, I suspect few to none of those reading these posts or this thread or even the entire forum will know HOW to put together a working vwap engine - from these posts alone. If I'm wrong (which is always entirely possible LOL) then let me know. You (LevII) have had the benefit as have many others of Grey1's generosity in being invited to watch him trade his vwap strat in RT using the vwap engine etc. Even those who have had this opportunity it would seem, lack the necessary knowledge to subsequently build the vwap engine for themselves - even with whatever additional (outside of the posts on these boards) insights may have been gleaned from the personal mentoring experience itself.

I'm not saying anything other than without this integral piece of the puzzle (the vwap engine itself in whatever form), nobody is going to be able to trade the way Iraj trades. It is IMHO not possible to reverse engineer from posts in this forum what is required in order to build it. When you watched Iraj trade it, you very possibly picked up stuff implicitly that even Iraj is not consciously aware he is doing in his trading. Stuff he can't explicate because he is simply unaware of it. Or simply because he chooses not to explicate it. Even with the possibility of the additional benefit you will have had by seeing the beastie (the vwap engine, not Iraj!) in the flesh, I don't think your task is that much easier. Not in any way a criticism of anyone or anything, but just an observation of the apparent lack of success (or willingness in some it would seem) to replicate their own vwap engine. It's obviously (quite obviously LOL) a non-trivial task and these posts in of of themselves are not in my estimation sufficient to provide the degree and quality of information required to successfully enable its design and construction. If anyone has done so - genuinely well done - but you brought something else to the party, didn't you.

I think it unlikely you will get to build a vwap engine from just reading the posts on this forum.

And you definitely don't get to trade like Grey1 - even with a vwap engine - by just reading the posts on this forum.

I guess that's the point I was trying to make.
 
kako said:
i'd double Lev II's above Post.
i don't like this kind of posts/attitude here, as this is a private forum, and ofcourse we are here to learn.
if u remember this forum putted again to private sometimes ago because of that kind of posts,
Kako - I'm not sure if your dig was at my post last night, but if so I suggest you read it again. A polite and experienced view on topic and in line with current discussion is always welcomed on this forum - and the site in general. If it does not fully meet with your take on things, all the better - you have another viewpoint to consider - which is why you (all of us?) are here.

If you are as astute in your research as you appear to be, you'll find my contributions to this forum are as numerous and hopefully useful as have been any others.

As a relative newcomer to the site and taking into account the possibility English may not be your mother tongue (and the misunderstandings that can arise from that) I would have let your comment go. But to suggest my attitude or manner is the same as that of some other members which caused Iraj to take this forum private a few years ago is to be so way off the mark as to be worthy of an apology from you.
 
Hey Guys I know everyone means well but lets cool it :rolleyes: , Grey1 wont like the direction this thread is going (once again).--- Lets talk technical.

The only comment I will add :)

IMHO trading, just like life itself is a journey (treat it as such and don't expect any quick fixes/holy grails/black boxes etc).

And, just as in life, I think you will find that the real reward is always the journey itself. :)
 
Let's move on

LevII said:
Hi Leo,

For others who may have similar questions does the approach G1 has time and again advocated not simpy come to this:-

1. Take a top down approach, market first then specific stock.
2. Trade only in stocks with good liquidity and daily range.
3. Enter based on signals from your choice of 'indicator' (in G1's case a modified version of Darvas's method) but stay out if the risk is too great (established by referring to MPD levels and an oscillator in multiple time frames). Be aware that in directional trading MPD levels are risk not trading levels.
4. Size your position in accordance with the size of your account, the amount you wish to put at risk and the volatility of the instrument.
5. Scale out of the position either on monetary stops or as your tecnical 'indicators' turn against your position.
6. Nothing more to it except years of experience and the psycologically sound attitude of a trader who knows he will succeed.

Where Bramble is wholly off beam is in thinking G1's contributions amount to no more than publishing "the end result of a black box - not the thinking that went into devising it - and trading it." In fact we have the exact opposite - namely the benefit, freely given, of G1's considerable intellect and experience. I hope others are as grateful as I am.

Hi LevII

It's very kind of you to sum up the key points. They are unquestionably the golden steps to becoming a successful trader. However, whenever the more experienced traders say something, there will always be technical questions, which the aspiring ones would like to get answered.

I am sure TheBramble has said what he said in good faith. :D
 
Just came back home from a Seminar in Scotland. Hope you are all well .I have few guests from abroad here that I am entertaining but as soon as they have gone my home is open to any 1 one you any time you want to come here either for a chat or to watch me trade.

As LEVLII said all my posts are there and some times the answer to some of the questions is the result of not searching for the answer which in this case I will still help but i prefer traders to put a little bit of work into it too .

Few weeks back some one on the main BB said , I cannot be bothered to go through the GREY1 APPROACH THREAD but can some one give me a link to see Grey1 P/L LOL

I think it was Trader333 who said get a life buddy we are not going to do that for you if you are not bothered lol

I am determined to get the traders of this BB into profit using conventional techniques by the end of this year.

On Thursday , GULUM said he shorted KLAC and i said it was not a short trade.

MARKET WAS UP 90ish
KLAC WAS UP $1.5 if i am not mistaken

WHEN YOU HAVE A STRONG MARKET AND A STRONG STOCK THEN shorting the stock is un acceptable and is not technical even if it rewards you few times.

YOU MUST NOT AND I MEAN IT MUST NOT BOTTOM FISH OR COUNTER TREND ( UNLESS YOU CREATE A MARKET NEUTRAL POSITION )

Going against the trend could pay few times but it is not for pro's.. DONOT IGNORE THIS

Bottom fishing is for losers.. You will lose all your money sooner or later

The problem with the market is IT SOME TIMES REWARDS BAD TRADING AND ONCE THE TRADER PICKS THE BAD HABIT UP IT TAKES ALL HIS CAPITAL IN A FEW TRADES THAT WORKED PREVIOUSLY ..


Lets start again

Always start with MARKET AND THEN STOCK

IF MARKET IS STRONG AND STOCK IS STRONG THEN LONG

This is simple enough and it is conventional TA.....

Now what is the entry point ? lets say you throw a dart at your entry . Then your draw dawn might be more than a seasoned trader but you will still come on top because you are on the right side of the market direction .

There are many many basic rules for trading using easy peasy and conventional TA but still many traders don’t use it and wonder why they lose?

I have said enough and the rest is up to you to listen to me and keep faith and discipline in what I tell you to do . If you are a disciplined trader then your future is great but if you insist on bad habit then even Jesus wont be able to save you .

I will in due course discuss easy peasy pair trading ( not VWAP ) using conventional methods but you have to understand one thing . Trading is game of chance . My strategies reward in long term and not shot term . I could lose 5 pair trades one after another but i will win the next 15 no matter what .

Risk management:-- This is not negotiable. You cannot buy /sell 1000 shares of all stocks irrespective of their volatility . You therefore have to learn this . NO LEARN NO MONEY as my Spanish friend would say . HE SAID GIMME A SYSTEM WHICH WINS . I did . I sold it to him .

We traded the same stocks here in my house for a day . he lost $550 $ I won $1900. I then told him you want to tell me my secret ?

I added the position sizing algorithm to his Engine and as far as I know he is up £15000 since 2 month ago ( still down £135 000 from previous years )

OK lets go to VWAP

VWAP bands are not trading bands. They are risk bands . You must only use them in pair trading or if you use them as directional trade , you must make sure the market is oscillating other wise stock will perform a LOWER LOW OR HIGHER HIGH AND YOU ARE TOAST . It is easy enough to know when market oscillates.. It oscillates at certain times ( 430 UK TIME- 730 UK time ) .Market oscillates because traders walk away and go for lunch , Volume shrinks and consolidation starts and hence market oscillates. When market oscillates then your trend following strategy fails and you should use strategies such as Strategy 3 I mentioned . Easy peasy .

Hope this helped

Grey1
 
Trader333 said:
Grey1,

Was this a trading seminar and if so any plans for one in England ?


Paul

The seminar was on more theoretical side of the financial Engineering . Application of Artificial intelligence in time series representation .

I along side an X university professor were the speakers.

Grey1
 
Grey1 said:
Just came back home from a Seminar in Scotland. Hope you are all well .I have few guests from abroad here that I am entertaining but as soon as they have gone my home is open to any 1 one you any time you want to come here either for a chat or to watch me trade.

As LEVLII said all my posts are there and some times the answer to some of the questions is the result of not searching for the answer which in this case I will still help but i prefer traders to put a little bit of work into it too .

Few weeks back some one on the main BB said , I cannot be bothered to go through the GREY1 APPROACH THREAD but can some one give me a link to see Grey1 P/L LOL

I think it was Trader333 who said get a life buddy we are not going to do that for you if you are not bothered lol

I am determined to get the traders of this BB into profit using conventional techniques by the end of this year.

On Thursday , GULUM said he shorted KLAC and i said it was not a short trade.

MARKET WAS UP 90ish
KLAC WAS UP $1.5 if i am not mistaken

WHEN YOU HAVE A STRONG MARKET AND A STRONG STOCK THEN shorting the stock is un acceptable and is not technical even if it rewards you few times.

YOU MUST NOT AND I MEAN IT MUST NOT BOTTOM FISH OR COUNTER TREND ( UNLESS YOU CREATE A MARKET NEUTRAL POSITION )

Going against the trend could pay few times but it is not for pro's.. DONOT IGNORE THIS

Bottom fishing is for losers.. You will lose all your money sooner or later

The problem with the market is IT SOME TIMES REWARDS BAD TRADING AND ONCE THE TRADER PICKS THE BAD HABIT UP IT TAKES ALL HIS CAPITAL IN A FEW TRADES THAT WORKED PREVIOUSLY ..


Lets start again

Always start with MARKET AND THEN STOCK

IF MARKET IS STRONG AND STOCK IS STRONG THEN LONG

This is simple enough and it is conventional TA.....

Now what is the entry point ? lets say you throw a dart at your entry . Then your draw dawn might be more than a seasoned trader but you will still come on top because you are on the right side of the market direction .

There are many many basic rules for trading using easy peasy and conventional TA but still many traders don’t use it and wonder why they lose?

I have said enough and the rest is up to you to listen to me and keep faith and discipline in what I tell you to do . If you are a disciplined trader then your future is great but if you insist on bad habit then even Jesus wont be able to save you .

I will in due course discuss easy peasy pair trading ( not VWAP ) using conventional methods but you have to understand one thing . Trading is game of chance . My strategies reward in long term and not shot term . I could lose 5 pair trades one after another but i will win the next 15 no matter what .

Risk management:-- This is not negotiable. You cannot buy /sell 1000 shares of all stocks irrespective of their volatility . You therefore have to learn this . NO LEARN NO MONEY as my Spanish friend would say . HE SAID GIMME A SYSTEM WHICH WINS . I did . I sold it to him .

We traded the same stocks here in my house for a day . he lost $550 $ I won $1900. I then told him you want to tell me my secret ?

I added the position sizing algorithm to his Engine and as far as I know he is up £15000 since 2 month ago ( still down £135 000 from previous years )

OK lets go to VWAP

VWAP bands are not trading bands. They are risk bands . You must only use them in pair trading or if you use them as directional trade , you must make sure the market is oscillating other wise stock will perform a LOWER LOW OR HIGHER HIGH AND YOU ARE TOAST . It is easy enough to know when market oscillates.. It oscillates at certain times ( 430 UK TIME- 730 UK time ) .Market oscillates because traders walk away and go for lunch , Volume shrinks and consolidation starts and hence market oscillates. When market oscillates then your trend following strategy fails and you should use strategies such as Strategy 3 I mentioned . Easy peasy .

Hope this helped

Grey1

Grey 1, great post, you say you long a strong stock in a strong market, could you further expand at point in the strong stock would be the safest meaning lowest risk point of entry to long or vice versa in a weak market? Break of previous support/resistence?
I can recall from your earlier posts you don't favour support and resistence and you find VWAP levels are more effective. Is there such a thing as break of VWAP levels?

Thx
 
gulam said:
Grey 1, great post, you say you long a strong stock in a strong market, could you further expand at point in the strong stock would be the safest meaning lowest risk point of entry to long or vice versa in a weak market? Break of previous support/resistence?
I can recall from your earlier posts you don't favour support and resistence and you find VWAP levels are more effective. Is there such a thing as break of VWAP levels?

Thx

Hi

The best entry always has to be when the exhaustion engine is OS in both DOW AND STOCK .. This is an ideal situation . How ever if you have a market OS but Stock not OS yet then you can still consider to go LONG


Reverse every thing for SHORT


Grey1
 
Hi

The best entry always has to be when the exhaustion engine is OS in both DOW AND STOCK .. This is an ideal situation . How ever if you have a market OS but Stock not OS yet then you can still consider to go LONG


Reverse every thing for SHORT


PS:--

Remember this . Exhaustion engine is your best mate. People including myself always used to go long after second pull back from the high . Now a days we have moved on to more pro approach as described above

Grey1
 
Hi Grey1. Please could you share your thoughts regarding using the ES as your market proxy, compared to the DOW (or YM? - is using the YM when you say 'DOW' in itself OK) when one is 'looking' at NAS stocks. I ask because, as you are well aware, in Jerry's room this is what we use all the time.

Thanks Again,

Steve
 
evostik said:
Hi Grey1. Please could you share your thoughts regarding using the ES as your market proxy, compared to the DOW (or YM? - is using the YM when you say 'DOW' in itself OK) when one is 'looking' at NAS stocks. I ask because, as you are well aware, in Jerry's room this is what we use all the time.

Thanks Again,

Steve


ES,YM , DOW No difference what so ever( Ok perhaos just a bit ) . There is a tiny bit difference between any leading indicator as they all respond to market a) news b) buy/sell programs programes at the same time .

Grey1
 
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