For or Against Brexit 2017?

[Atilla]

Good question but you have forgotten to say what his reply was ?

On the news at the moment is a report from Libya that the fleeing migrants have been infiltrated by Islamic state trained psychos. Interesting to see if it is weeks, months or longer before the Brussell's sprouts react ? Another good reason to dump them as no doubt many will gravitate over here.

I don't remember his reply I'm afraid but I do recall not being satisfied. Took another 10 years before reforms came in the 90s.



Re: Libya and refugees I think it's remarkably bloody minded of the EU to allow them in. Only adding to more people risking lives. I do not believe they are running from persecution as those boat rides aren't cheap. Cheaper to take conventional legit transport but obviously usual channel via visas and so people eventually get returned back. They must have money to pay to the traffickers so they are not desperate imo.


I would;

1. Punish the boat operators with financial penalties and upon second offence confiscate boat

2. Return passengers to point where they boarded illegally

3. Implement point scheme for allowing migrants in based on their financial position and skills on offer



Was watching some sob program on TV the other day. Some down and out was telling his life story how he climbed out of some **** hole to having a room but having to pay rent. Anyhow, I went along with his sob story thinking hard working guy give him a chance.

He then went into how his government doesn't take care of people like him and how hard life was and there was not much work. He was unable to pay his rent and was so was going to be kicked out.

I was almost in tears when he then said he didn't know what his wife and 8 kids were going to do.

This is when I cursed the son of the bitch and thought go and fluff your self. :innocent:



Human's at all levels can be such AOs.

 

[Splitlink]

There are too many drowning for it to be anything but desperation, even if it does cost them money.

 

[Atilla]

There are too many drowning for it to be anything but desperation, even if it does cost them money.

That's from your perspective.

No one pays that sort of money to drown.

I'm willing to bet most this is not their first attempt either. They have multiple tries even if they are sent back.

I also don't understand how some of these desperate people could flee with their children some not even a year old.

Don't be tricked. I'd doubt even if 1% of them were genuine refugees. They all have extended families with about 50 members. They all know someone somewhere.

 

[Splitlink]

That's from your perspective.

No one pays that sort of money to drown.

I'm willing to bet most this is not their first attempt either. They have multiple tries even if they are sent back.

I also don't understand how some of these desperate people could flee with their children some not even a year old.

Don't be tricked. I'd doubt even if 1% of them were genuine refugees. They all have extended families with about 50 members. They all know someone somewhere.

I don't think that it matters, much. I believe that it is an element of human evolution. This is something that is going to happen and will be read about in the history books., in the same way as the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Normans and all the rest merged centuries ago.

That does not mean, though, that we should stand aside and allow it to happen, all at once. Everything must occur gradually, but that it is inevitable is certain. Those who drown are the weakest of the species and those who try again, eventually succeeding, are the strongest.

 

[hhiusa]

That does not mean, though, that we should stand aside and allow it to happen, all at once. Everything must occur gradually, but that it is inevitable is certain. Those who drown are the weakest of the species and those who try again, eventually succeeding, are the strongest.

That is Social Darwinism at its finest:clap:. I am still asserting that even though your guys' profile says United Kingdom you are from other countries. You are probably immigrants there.

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

That is Social Darwinism at its finest:clap:. I am still asserting that even though your guys' profile says United Kingdom you are from other countries. You are probably immigrants there.

Actually, at least two of us on this thread have swung the other way...

 

[hhiusa]

Actually, at least two of us on this thread have swung the other way...

Which way would that be?

 

[Atilla]

That is Social Darwinism at its finest:clap:. I am still asserting that even though your guys' profile says United Kingdom you are from other countries. You are probably immigrants there.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese?

 

[Pat494]

I think the poll should be re-opened.
After all the vote isn't for months yet.

 

[hhiusa]

Brexit poll reopened

I think the poll should be re-opened.
After all the vote isn't for months yet.

Here you go!

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/206028-brexit-2016-cameron-referendum-poll.html#post2545794

 

[Splitlink]

That is Social Darwinism at its finest:clap:. I am still asserting that even though your guys' profile says United Kingdom you are from other countries. You are probably immigrants there.

It bears out the facts, doesn' it? I have two grandchildren, now. They are a mixture of English, Welsh from my side and Catalan from my wife. Over the centuries, who knows what else got in amongst them!

Mixture of races has nothing to do with this. The effect on the quality of life of the inhabitants is what our politicians must consider.

 

[hhiusa]

It bears out the facts, doesn' it? I have two grandchildren, now. They are a mixture of English, Welsh from my side and Catalan from my wife. Over the centuries, who knows what else got in amongst them!

Mixture of races has nothing to do with this. The effect on the quality of life of the inhabitants is what our politicians must consider.

Race and culture has a lot to do with it. If I am watching some event happen in Japan, it will most likely have a different effect upon the people culturally and they will react differently. This rule is especially important if you are trading foreign markets. The news of something happening in Japan will effect their market differently than if the same event happened in the U.S.. The same is true for all cultures, which stems from different people.

Understanding these cultural differences that arise over time is important even in business and finance. Imagine you are in a business meeting with Japanese people or have Japanese clients, you wouldn't traditionally buy someone a clock, give someone things in 4's or give anyone anthing white, etc.. Giving someone a clock is synonymous with death. Four sounds exactly the same as the word for "death" in Japanese and is bad luck. Giving someone something in white is associated with a funeral.

Sweeping these differences under the rug as if they don't exist will lead to problems as is usually the case in places with greater diversity. Norway, northern Germany, Sweden and parts of Switzerland have had very low inbreeding, which is why they tend to be very homogeneous. Homogeneity means less cultural strife as evidenced by Scandinavia's extremely low crime.

 

[Pat494]

. The effect on the quality of life of the inhabitants is what our politicians must consider.

The electorates around the world should keep in mind these wise words.
That from the people's point of view is exactly what politicians should be working for. Not filling their own bank accounts with stolen money etc.

 

[hhiusa]

See Brexit 2016 Cameron Referendum for reopened poll

 

[Splitlink]

Race and culture has a lot to do with it. If I am watching some event happen in Japan, it will most likely have a different effect upon the people culturally and they will react differently. This rule is especially important if you are trading foreign markets. The news of something happening in Japan will effect their market differently than if the same event happened in the U.S.. The same is true for all cultures, which stems from different people.

Understanding these cultural differences that arise over time is important even in business and finance. Imagine you are in a business meeting with Japanese people or have Japanese clients, you wouldn't traditionally buy someone a clock, give someone things in 4's or give anyone anthing white, etc.. Giving someone a clock is synonymous with death. Four sounds exactly the same as the word for "death" in Japanese and is bad luck. Giving someone something in white is associated with a funeral.

Sweeping these differences under the rug as if they don't exist will lead to problems as is usually the case in places with greater diversity. Norway, northern Germany, Sweden and parts of Switzerland have had very low inbreeding, which is why they tend to be very homogeneous. Homogeneity means less cultural strife as evidenced by Scandinavia's extremely low crime.

I disagree, with respect. The US, of all places, has as much cultural diversity as anywhere and it is a great nation. So are most of the European and other large immigrant based nations, such as Australia and Canada.

The problem, as I see it, is the penniless arriving in prosperous communities and swamping them by sheer weight of numbers. The capitalists in the States did this same thing by importing Italian, Polish and many Asiatic peoples for cheap labour.

This is going to happen, over time, anyway. It is inevitable but it must be a gradual process.

The US and GB mus stop interfering in other peoples affairs, too, because that only aggravates the issue. Especially if, when they have had enough, they walk away and leave them to get on with it.

 

[new_trader]

The capitalists in the States did this same thing by importing Italian, Polish and many Asiatic peoples for cheap labour.

Can you provide a reference to the sources of your 'facts'? As far as I know, America didn't have any kind of State welfare system or minimum wage written into the Constitution, yet people voluntarily left Europe for the USA. The reason being they wanted to escape the despotic countries of Europe and preferred FREEDOM despite the fact that there was no social safety net.

I don't care if you agree or disagree, I would just like to know where you got your facts from so I can read it for myself.

 

[Splitlink]

Can you provide a reference to the sources of your 'facts'? As far as I know, America didn't have any kind of State welfare system or minimum wage written into the Constitution, yet people voluntarily left Europe for the USA. The reason being they wanted to escape the despotic countries of Europe and preferred FREEDOM despite the fact that there was no social safety net.

I don't care if you agree or disagree, I would just like to know where you got your facts from so I can read it for myself.

I stand corrected on that point. I can't find anywhere that says that "capitalism brought these workers into the US. They did, in fact, go over voluntarily.

Would you disagree, though, that they were taken advantage of by the employers, to undercut going rates of pay? Does Europe want the same to happen, especially in the present labour market conditions?

http://sageamericanhistory.net/gildedage/topics/capital_labor_immigration.html

 

[Atilla]

Can you provide a reference to the sources of your 'facts'? As far as I know, America didn't have any kind of State welfare system or minimum wage written into the Constitution, yet people voluntarily left Europe for the USA. The reason being they wanted to escape the despotic countries of Europe and preferred FREEDOM despite the fact that there was no social safety net.

I don't care if you agree or disagree, I would just like to know where you got your facts from so I can read it for myself.

You are assuming they are coming here for benefits and welfare.

They are coming over here for the opportunity to better them selves. Farmers in Kent looking for field workers often advertise and only get migrants applying.

We need to move away from they are after our benefits, homes and NHS. They are usually young, eager and very keen to work hard and get ahead.


Having said that, I do feel we need to better control inflows and have a point scoring system etc.

 

[new_trader]

Would you disagree, though, that they were taken advantage of by the employers, to undercut going rates of pay? Does Europe want the same to happen, especially in the present labour market conditions?

No, because the alternatives are always worse. Starve to death or work, which would you choose? That is the choice many immigrants who come to this country were faced with. In Britain, "poor" means only being able to afford a 32" HD TV instead of a 42" HD TV, or only having an iPhone 5 when everyone else has an iPhone n². In other countries, children are faced with the choice of either seeing their family starve to death or prostitution.

So, again, no, I don't think anyone was taken advantage of, they were given an opportunity not afforded them in the country they left.

 

[Splitlink]

I disagree, again. The conditions that they underwent in their own country is only of interest to them. Those who live in their new country have a standard of living that they want to maintain. If new immigrants want to work for less then they are threatening that country's standard of living. I'd never say that the same happens in UK---perish the thought--- although I seem to remember a case of workers drowning while they looking for shellfish, a few years ago but, in Spain, the police have uncovered a few cases of worker exploitation underneath Chinese restaurants, for instance, and on farms.

My main point, in this debate, is that too many coming into EU spells trouble. It has to be kept under control.