Fear of missing out
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Pat494
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That is a really interesting video which clearly explains how the banks make such huge amounts of money on a pump and dump system.
However gross this seems, I think the banking families have done a big part in encouraging the average family to survive financially too.
How many people realize that the Federal Bank of America is actually privately owned and not subservient to the US State.
brewski1984
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Its brightened up my week brewski, been a bit dull since joe set sail
Re choosing an exchange dyor on with UK customers in mind. Coinbase has a lot of complaints in this area for example, easy to get money in but hard to get it out.
Yeah poor old Joe, he's probably still cleaning out his puke bucket
Who would you recommend? I'm going to take a punt on Ripple as previously posted.
The genesis of the conversation at least for me is whether Bitcoin creates wealth as is commonly understood or is it simply temporal inflated valuation driven by speculative forces. I believe strongly in having clear terms of reference in any conversation or else it will easily degenerate into meaningless you tube references and expert opinion about everything and anything.
The conversation isn't about faith or meaning but the attributable basis in which the valuation is derived. In other words, the methodology in how you get to the end point rather than whether there is meaning in the end point.
How do you get $16K? That is a good question. In any economic chain of activities where you have economic input and output throughout the process, you eventually get a final product or service which the final consumer is prepared to pay. In the case of Bitcoin, there is a total disconnect between the economic inputs and the end point valuation. When your valuation is simply underpinned by hype driven by greed and greater fool then that valuation premium can easily disappear as it was generated. That is an inherent feature of a bubble because all it represents is hot air and by nature it can easily just disappear given the right conditions.
The question is whether that faith that provides meaning as you would like to put it is underpinned by something fundamental or just hot air. Unfortunately the arguments I have seen are statements of opinion that range from an anarchist worldview of corruption in the banking system to Bitcoin as the wonder product of the 21st century.
In a free society, people can easily conclude any transaction under any terms as long as they are willing buyer and seller. An efficient economic system has evolved to what we have today to facilitate transactions between parties. Are there exceptions to the norm in which people can transact - sure but it isn't the point of the conversation.
How Bitcoin will evolve in adoption and likewise in its valuation is a future event and is an unknown. Every one has an opinion but the problem is that some of the arguments presented are in my view (a) one dimensional; (b) opinionated driven by simple faith but lacking substance; or (c) a disconnect to reality.
I have yet to meet a trader who doesn't believe that he or she will make money trading the markets.
Frankly I am having a hard time following the conversations with all those you tube videos presented as some sort of argument in favor of a certain point of view. How does "where money comes from" has anything to do with Bitcoin's present valuation or about Bitcoin? Can someone actually explain in plain simple English without having to resort to another you tube video. Imagine if I were to make an argument and insist that the reasoning is found in the novel "War and Peace" and you should read it.
In my view if one is passionate about a position then defend that position with the best defence you can mount but not hide behind a you tube video reference. Maybe it is my age but that is not how we engage in a debate in the old days.
In my view if one is passionate about a position then defend that position with the best defence you can mount but not hide behind a you tube video reference. Maybe it is my age but that is not how we engage in a debate in the old days.
darktone
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For me Brumby, Bitcoin is just another form of money. To attempt to understand it, I think its good to have some idea of what money is and what forms it can take. Tbh I think its best to try and keep it as simple as possible, because makes the subject accessible all, and its my view that when all big words and blurb are stripped away, money itself is very simple, repulsively simple even.
Can I ask, what types of money are you familiar with? Straight up question no lulz etc.
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For me Darktone, if one wants to make a point then make the point. If somehow the meaning of money is important in the Bitcoin equation then make that connection and the argument. The principle in any debate of ideas is the party advocating a position is the one that offers the defense. If the counter party disagrees with what is offered then it is their job to dismantle the defenses by offering the reasons.
darktone
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I dont really have a position on bitcoin persay, I just accept that it exists. Im asking you about forms of money so we can try and compare it in some way.
Im not trying to burn you here.
I am very careful with terms of reference when engaging in a debate of ideas because it can easily spin in multi directions if there are no boundaries. It is to preempt meaningless back and forth.
Is cryptocurrency a viable replacement medium for fiat currency? I don't know and I don't care. A trader is primarily a speculator in opportunities. If there is a viable trade plan to trade crypto then go for it.
What I have a problem is with some of those superfluous reasoning why Bitcoin will go to $100,000 based on some nebulous conspiracy reasoning or fallacious arguments.
darktone
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I think me n you have pretty similar views for the most part. Im interested to see how things play out in the competition with fiat stakes, no idea whatll happen but am curious to see.
Re trading it, as you said.
Re pricing/valuation, could go to the $moon or zero for any reason, no idea there either.
Re Money:-
I see 3 basic types of money, in my experience most folks with a view on the subject see 2 as they lump the fiat's together. All of them have already had their place in history and they all have their own benefits and problems. General ignorance of the subject by most I see as one of the biggest problems.
The 3:-
Commodity based money (gold standard etc)
Debt based fiat (what we have today)
Pure fiat
All sorts of views on which is best for various reasons, for some folks it seems close to a religion. Ive been pretty alarmist myself in recent years...
Ive asked myself which one does Bitcoin (purely Bitcoin seen from a basic view) most closely resemble?
Its said the supply is limited in some way, at least until someone finds out otherwise.
It takes some considerable effort and energy to 'mine' it.
Both of those appear to align with a commodity based money. Although its not physical in nature and you could argue that it has no intrinsic value per say, as per fiat. Just my view atm, nothing more.
What does this all mean for Bitcoin? No idea. I know the 'trust' things a bit vague but I see it a very important element of all monies, is Bitcoin rising because trust is growing?
I talked to two friends recently who me asked about Bitcoin, said im recently out etc etc. One wants to buy just because they see it as going up, the other was all about 'its set to replace fiat arnt you worried that you wont have any when the time comes' yada yada. From that I take everyone has their own reason for buying and prices are rising cos buyers outstrip sellers, atm.
Thats probably about the lions share of my 2c, past my bedtime, night
Oscar Reed
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Punters Tip.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...spotify-apple-in-china-s-battle-for-the-bands
They have the App Wechat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat
Might be a better investment than bitcoin and money.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...spotify-apple-in-china-s-battle-for-the-bands
They have the App Wechat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat
Might be a better investment than bitcoin and money.
So let's take the idea further that Bitcoin is pure fiat and do a reality check whether the claims stack up to the hype. This is a claim that is taken from a another thread :
"First, what would $100,000 bitcoin mean?
There are currently about 16.7 million bitcoins in circulation, so a $100,000 per-coin value implies a total valuation of $1.67 trillion for all bitcoins. This is certainly a large sum of money, but it isn't unattainable by any means.
For reference, the global money supply is estimated to be $84 trillion, and there is estimated to be $280 trillion of total wealth in the world. So if just 0.6% of all global wealth was stored in the form of bitcoin, it would translate to a $100,000 bitcoin price. This would be a big leap from the current value of bitcoin, but if the digital currency starts to gain serious traction, it's not outside the realm of possibilities."
The nature of the claim is very representative of the spin out there. So what is the problem with the reasoning? Firstly just on logic we have a case of fallacy in equivocation. How is the value of money supply has anything to do with the valuation of Bitcoin? It is like me saying Tiger Woods has a career earnings of $1.4 billion playing professional golf. If I were to take up professional golf I should reasonably expect to earn maybe 1 % of what Tiger Wood achieved i.e. $14 miilion.
Moving on let's perform a reality check against the claim of it functioning as a fiat currency. The function of a currency is an enabler of transactions. In the early days of Bitcoin, an example used was to purchase pizza using Bitcoin instead of fiat currency. In the early days Bitcoin was worth probably less than a dollar. Against current valuation of $16,000 or the claim of $100,000, it sure would be challenging to see its adoption in terms of normal use. Without adoption how do you grow circulation and without circulation how do you grow valuation? This is besides the fact that it is becoming prohibitive to transact as the "proof of work" i.e. to mine becomes enormously expensive for the payer. My understanding is that in 2013, a miner receives 50 Bitcoin for every proof of work. The system is designed to half the payout every 4 years and currently is 12.5 Bitcoins with the last halving occurring in July 2016. This is an extremely cost ineffective currency system to transact when I can order a pizza and pay for it with no transaction cost.
Do people actually think it through before they make claims on Bitcoin valuation?
Before one respond by saying that Bitcoin has fractional pricing down to a Satoshi, please reconcile to the initial claim that justified a high valuation is premised on a cap on the number of Bitcoin. Opening up the argument of fractional Bitcoin undermines the very basis of a high valuation - a catch 22.
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brewski1984
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Well, I've had a look today at opening an account to buy Ripple. I give up, it's too much hassle and too much hard work. Bitfinex take 5 weeks to verify your account before you can deposit fiat money, no doubt wanting passport numbers and bank statements (I understand why but I just can't be bothered). Bitmex have xrp/btc which means I have to buy Bitcoin first and then have exposure to Bitcoin as well as Ripple? All of these places have a fee to deposit and withdraw, after losing out on currency conversions as well.
I'll keep my measly 500 POUNDS in my bank account and spend it literally any where I want with no hassle. CMC will gladly take it from me in about 2 seconds, they have stated they are looking to add cryptos to their platform.
I'll keep my measly 500 POUNDS in my bank account and spend it literally any where I want with no hassle. CMC will gladly take it from me in about 2 seconds, they have stated they are looking to add cryptos to their platform.
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brewski1984
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I'll have a look tomorrow cheers. The problem is I've never heard of any of them and I'm not a very trusting person when it comes to giving out my information.
counter_violent
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I think me n you have pretty similar views for the most part. Im interested to see how things play out in the competition with fiat stakes, no idea whatll happen but am curious to see.
Re trading it, as you said.
Re pricing/valuation, could go to the $moon or zero for any reason, no idea there either.
Re Money:-
I see 3 basic types of money, in my experience most folks with a view on the subject see 2 as they lump the fiat's together. All of them have already had their place in history and they all have their own benefits and problems. General ignorance of the subject by most I see as one of the biggest problems.
The 3:-
Commodity based money (gold standard etc)
Debt based fiat (what we have today)
Pure fiat
All sorts of views on which is best for various reasons, for some folks it seems close to a religion. Ive been pretty alarmist myself in recent years...
Ive asked myself which one does Bitcoin (purely Bitcoin seen from a basic view) most closely resemble?
Its said the supply is limited in some way, at least until someone finds out otherwise.
It takes some considerable effort and energy to 'mine' it.
Both of those appear to align with a commodity based money. Although its not physical in nature and you could argue that it has no intrinsic value per say, as per fiat. Just my view atm, nothing more.
What does this all mean for Bitcoin? No idea. I know the 'trust' things a bit vague but I see it a very important element of all monies, is Bitcoin rising because trust is growing?
I talked to two friends recently who me asked about Bitcoin, said im recently out etc etc. One wants to buy just because they see it as going up, the other was all about 'its set to replace fiat arnt you worried that you wont have any when the time comes' yada yada. From that I take everyone has their own reason for buying and prices are rising cos buyers outstrip sellers, atm.
Thats probably about the lions share of my 2c, past my bedtime, night
Decent article here Darkie. Credit to Garvo for finding it.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/b...s-long-as-greater-fools-are-buying-2017-12-13
darktone
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Im with you that putting a $value on Bitcoin relative to the current money supply is a bit pointless in itself, but thats our view. For someone who thinks that Bitcoin will replace our current monies at some point it holds more weight.
The problem I think might be that were trying value Bitcoin in £ / $. A simpler way might be measure it in goods and services. Its a stretch, but imagine a parallel world to our own, its the same in every way with the exception that they have and only ever had Bitcoin as their world wide money, theyve never heard of a £ / $. Imagine how differently the average joe from each world would view Bitcoin and its 'value'.
Re Bitcoin / Pure fiat:- Theyre similar in that both are created with no debt but Bitcoin has (supposed to have) a finite supply. Pure fiat is elastic in that the supply can be increased or decreased. Both qualities have pros and cons imo.
Well you cant pay you taxes with Bitcoin as yet eh, but some people do transact in Bitcoin right now, so it has been adopted by some as a medium of exchange.
According to the wiki link, a couple of pizzas were exchanged for 10,000 Bitcoin, too funny today
Ive next to no understanding of blockchain etc. Atm as I understand it it takes a pile of effort with a computer to 'mine' Bitcoin, and its get more difficult mine the next Bitcoin, it could be said thats true of any mined resource as the low hanging fruit are taken first. Id imagine these costs are born by the miner not the transactor, idk. Im also not sure how much computing power it takes to transact in Bitcoin, if its a lot by todays measure it could be argued that this might be a non issue with tomorrows hardware, but idk.
"Do people actually think it through before they make claims on Bitcoin valuation?"
Im gona go probably, at least a tiny bit... But I suspect confirmation bias is king
Sorry for the late reply B, but im up to mi eyeballs atm
All just my 2c
darktone
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Cheers bud, will have a look when I get a mo.
FXX
Do not let people stop you from posting interesting facts - this site needs an intelligent voice for alternative opinion, to lose that would probably be the cause of many people actually believing the hype currently being spewed on this thread possibly leading to financial loss.
As the old saying goes "buy on rumour, sell on fact" is very well the choice of phrases in this current hyper bubble.
As I've said before, if 'traders' here (I use that term loosely) want to try and make some money out of Bitcoin, why suddenly turn in to a sheep investor, why not just trade the moves on SB or Futures? That way you have instant transactions in a regulated environment - after all, do the people here really give a damn about fiat vs crypto? I doubt it very much, they just want profit...
Do not let people stop you from posting interesting facts - this site needs an intelligent voice for alternative opinion, to lose that would probably be the cause of many people actually believing the hype currently being spewed on this thread possibly leading to financial loss.
As the old saying goes "buy on rumour, sell on fact" is very well the choice of phrases in this current hyper bubble.
As I've said before, if 'traders' here (I use that term loosely) want to try and make some money out of Bitcoin, why suddenly turn in to a sheep investor, why not just trade the moves on SB or Futures? That way you have instant transactions in a regulated environment - after all, do the people here really give a damn about fiat vs crypto? I doubt it very much, they just want profit...
You´d be surprised, we all saw how governments across the globe printed money out of thin air and handed it over to the banks.
I´d say most people see in Cryptourrencies a way to ensure that the state can no longer engage in these sort of crimes. (I mean extracting wealth from the people and handing it over to the plutocracy)
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