Diary of a swing spread better

[hungvir]

Buy low. Sell high. :cheesy:

Indicators on this beast IMO are at best misleading. This mother can drive a man crazy if he doesn't know when to leave her alone.

Price action, support and resistance and a charting package where you can display all timeframes is all you need plus a dash of intuition. As for strategy that's for me to know and for you to find out. What works for me I guarantee would not work for anyone else!

BTW. Ditch the SB and get direct access if you wanna stand a chance!

You made me laugh way my losses :cheesy: I said I love your style didn't I

 

[observer MM]

Thanks Rols,

Price Action - Can you explain this in more detail.

and a example. I will understand if you can't.

thanks in advance.

Observer MM

 

[frugi]

Here's a godawful mess of hindsight which will probably help nobody but at least shows some of things I was looking at today re price action. For what it's worth LOL. Chart is 2 minute Dow futures, which Hung will shortly be trading ... the 1 pip spread will be a breath of fresh air after SB I promise. And no more confusion in watching cash Dow (slow) and trying to trade futures price (fast). The indicator at the bottom is NYSE Tick. Bear in mind I'm looking at a lot of other stuff as well such as other timeframes, ES, NQ, market breadth, the occasional Fib, pivots, time of day, divergence from vwap, channels, volume, time & sales etc. The 50 ma was an old stalwart of chartman's, equivalent to 100 on a 1 min or 20 on a 5 min ... still a handy line in the sand and a bit of a magnet too.

For definition of 123 and Ross Hook (& the Trader's Trick Entry I and many others use) look
in the Traderpedia.

http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/Ross_Hook
http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/1-2-3_formation

More detail:
http://www.trading-naked.com/library/Law_of_Charts.pdf

Just one way out of many to add some systematic parameters to one's trade entries - I'm not recommending it as a particularly wonderful method but it can help discipline and help one study price with a little helpful structure.

http://www.enthios.com/Lessons/PatternsPrimer/patterns.htm
http://www.enthios.com/Information/Lexicon/msl_msh.htm

(just some common basic patterns and building blocks)

Trading price may seem odd at first but it gets easier. Try and understand what it means when price is moving very fast and when it isn't, what the pros are trying to achieve, when they are active and why, the difference between clean and choppy wave structure, taste the fear, greed, perceptions of value & expectation in the bars as they print, learn to spot the program trades and see the bait dangled by the pros, check the mass of mechanical systems coming in at bar closes and those trying to feed off them just previous ... that sort of thing. Eek. But as rols says below if you watch the blighters printing for long enough the subconscious learns stuff and judging the mood and likely direction given x or y becomes a bit easier. One seemingly perverse thing I used to do given that I always bought or sold at the wrong moment was work out where my stop was going to be for that trade and then enter there instead. The rationale being that the market will do its best to wrong-foot you and where you are likely to throw in the towel after a bad entry can be quite predictable to the experienced and they're the ones taking advantage, often doing the opposite to you at your stop, so why not try and do the same. Not literally and every time of course, but possibly something to explore.

These threads may be handy too:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=7751
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=13451

Also check out posts by sandpiper, mrmarcus, china white, chartman, skimbleshanks, a320, Joules_MM1, dbphoenix to name but a few.

PS Exits? Usually fixed targets for first 2/3 - e.g 1/3 @ 6; 1/3 @12; then last 1/3 discretionary trail. Depends on the prints, sometimes pull out when in doubt e.g at a nasty candle (e.g the one in yellow ellipse marked demand test after warnings from tick/volume/previous candles), obvious technical target (1:1, 138/161% extension, higher TF s/r etc.). Will vary size according to perception of conditions. I am impatient and generate too much commission while missing too many points. Much to improve.

All vague I know, sorry, and anyone can mark up a chart after the event and pick out stuff that seemed to have worked. But at least I do trade this stuff albeit clumsily.

 

[hungvir]

Observer MM,

I think what Rols meant was that if price makes higher high or higher low you should stand to go with the new trend. The important point here is WHEN. And you know already how I deal with this 'when' question.

When you trade the DOW, any trend line that lasts for about an hour or two is quite a strong one. If it's violated chances are the momentum has shifted.

I can't always do this but waiting for the best set up and forget about the so so one will surely make us money.

Cheers,

Hung

 

[hungvir]

You beat me to it Frugi Thanks for the chart.

 

[observer MM]

Thanks Frugi

going to spend some time on those threads

Much Appreciated!

Observer MM

 

[Vaco]

Guys what are you trying to do to me,

I take one slow friday evening off and come back to 4 pages to read

As for the dow today, go back about 8 pages and you can qute me that today was gonna be a red day, hung wernt u listening

Should i have gone short, if i pulled the trigger when i wanted to yes, but at 11035 looked like a risky trade so still glad i left it alone.

This week at home has been fun but i have drifted away from the plan and day traded a little today and yesterday. (i've taken more then i've given away but thats not the point)

Still back to work next week so no more messing around

have a good weekend all.

 

[observer MM]

Observer MM,

I think what Rols meant was that if price makes higher high or higher low you should stand to go with the new trend. The important point here is WHEN. And you know already how I deal with this 'when' question.

When you trade the DOW, any trend line that lasts for about an hour or two is quite a strong one. If it's violated chances are the momentum has shifted.

I can't always do this but waiting for the best set up and forget about the so so one will surely make us money.

Cheers,

Hung

Thanks Hungvir, Appreciate your comments.

Observer MM

 

[rols]

Here's a godawful mess of hindsight which will probably help nobody but at least shows some of things I was looking at today re price action. For what it's worth LOL. Chart is 2 minute Dow futures, which Hung will shortly be trading ... the 1 pip spread will be a breath of fresh air after SB I promise. And no more confusion in watching cash and trying to trade futures price. The indicator at the bottom is NYSE Tick.

For definition of 123 and Ross Hook (& the Trader's Trick Entry I and many others use) look
in the Traderpedia.

http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/Ross_Hook
http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/1-2-3_formation

Just one way out of many to add some systematic parameters to one's trade entries.

Trading price may seem odd at first but it gets easier. These threads may be handy too:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=7751
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=13451

This is a very enterprising piece of work Frugi! I also have a small TICK indicator watching for possible divergences but I wish IB would provide a TICKI. If anybody could help me reproduce one via Excel I would be most grateful.

Have you noticed that the September contract is altogether much more moody than the lady for June?

My view is that it is an absolute necessity to perceive the mood for the day and trade accordingly. I can't really put it into words but if you know I mean you will understand - it's something that can't really be defined in technical analysis and why I suppose some are more attracted to futures than others.
Why do some reduce the markets to a host of squiggly lines when it's real people with real FEAR and real GREED that drive the prices up and down all day?
I have also learnt from experience that there has to be a minimum amount of volume being trading otherwise you may as well be at a fairground shooting ducks with a crooked gun.
Ross Hooks are good in the right place but when the market is moving too fast I generally step aside.

What our SB friends would benefit from is to spend a week or so with no charts and just observe the prices. Then add charts but no Mickey Mouse indicators and see how choreography and price blend to make a veritable Rite.

 

[hungvir]

What you said there makes a lot of sense, Rols. I learnt a lot in a losing day like today than when I make money.

Enjoy your weekend!

Cheers,

Hung

 

[observer MM]

This is a very enterprising piece of work Frugi! I also have a small TICK indicator watching for possible divergences but I wish IB would provide a TICKI. If anybody could help me reproduce one via Excel I would be most grateful.

Have you noticed that the September contract is altogether much more moody than the lady for June?

My view is that it is an absolute necessity to perceive the mood for the day and trade accordingly. I can't really put it into words but if you know I mean you will understand - it's something that can't really be defined in technical analysis and why I suppose some are more attracted to futures than others.
Why do some reduce the markets to a host of squiggly lines when it's real people with real FEAR and real GREED that drive the prices up and down all day?
I have also learnt from experience that there has to be a minimum amount of volume being trading otherwise you may as well be at a fairground shooting ducks with a crooked gun.
Ross Hooks are good in the right place but when the market is moving too fast I generally step aside.

What our SB friends would benefit from is to spend a week or so with no charts and just observe the prices. Then add charts but no Mickey Mouse indicators and see how choreography and price blend to make a veritable Rite.

Hi Rols,

Still waiting for your input on the chart or your reply how you would handle entrie and exits?

I've got frugi's input and I appreciate it!

 

[hungvir]

Frugi,

Thanks for taking the trouble to drink beer on a Friday night and adding more advice to your wonderful post How nice to wake up to it, especially when I did not sleep much And the chart looks nice and clear as well!

Regarding your '123' short at around 3:30 it would have been stopped out after about half an hour and the market did its real stunt plunge after that. Did you actually trade that one?! Where did you put your stop and when did you move it to break even?!

Thanks and have a nice weekend. Hopefully the DOW will leave you alone until Monday

Best,

Hung

Here's a godawful mess of hindsight which will probably help nobody but at least shows some of things I was looking at today re price action. For what it's worth LOL. Chart is 2 minute Dow futures, which Hung will shortly be trading ... the 1 pip spread will be a breath of fresh air after SB I promise. And no more confusion in watching cash Dow (slow) and trying to trade futures price (fast). The indicator at the bottom is NYSE Tick. Bear in mind I'm looking at a lot of other stuff as well such as other timeframes, ES, NQ, market breadth, the occasional Fib, pivots, time of day, divergence from vwap, channels, volume, time & sales etc. The 50 ma was an old stalwart of chartman's, equivalent to 100 on a 1 min or 20 on a 5 min ... still a handy line in the sand and a bit of a magnet too.

For definition of 123 and Ross Hook (& the Trader's Trick Entry I and many others use) look
in the Traderpedia.

http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/Ross_Hook
http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/1-2-3_formation

Just one way out of many to add some systematic parameters to one's trade entries - I'm not recommending it as a particularly wonderful method but it can help discipline and help one study price with a little helpful structure.

Trading price may seem odd at first but it gets easier. Try and understand what it means when price is moving very fast and when it isn't, what the pros are trying to achieve, when they are active and why, the difference between clean and choppy wave structure, taste the fear, greed, perceptions of value & expectation in the bars as they print, learn to spot the program trades and see the bait dangled by the pros, check the mass of mechanical systems coming in at bar closes and those trying to feed off them just previous ... that sort of thing. Eek. But as rols says below if you watch the blighters printing for long enough the subconscious learns stuff and judging the mood and likely direction given x or y becomes a bit easier. One seemingly perverse thing I used to do given that I always bought or sold at the wrong moment was work out where my stop was going to be for that trade and then enter there instead. The rationale being that the market will do its best to wrong-foot you and where you are likely to throw in the towel after a bad entry can be quite predictable to the experienced and they're the ones taking advantage, often doing the opposite to you at your stop, so why not try and do the same. Not literally and every time of course, but possibly something to explore.

These threads may be handy too:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=7751
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=13451

Also check out posts by sandpiper, mrmarcus, china white, chartman, skimbleshanks, a320, Joules_MM1, dbphoenix to name but a few.

PS Exits? Usually fixed targets for first 2/3 - e.g 1/3 @ 6; 1/3 @12; then last 1/3 discretionary trail. Depends on the prints, sometimes pull out when in doubt e.g at a nasty candle (e.g the one in yellow ellipse marked demand test after warnings from tick/volume/previous candles), obvious technical target (1:1, 138/161% extension, higher TF s/r etc.). Will vary size according to perception of conditions. I am impatient and generate too much commission while missing too many points. Much to improve.

All vague I know, sorry, and anyone can mark up a chart after the event and pick out stuff that seemed to have worked. But at least I do trade this stuff albeit clumsily.

 

[Vaco]

Before I go, weekly figs for the Dow daily. 21 trades with 15 winners 5 losers and one for zero giving a total of 59 points to the market and 143 to me. Must work on some of the more impulsive trades and eliminate some of the crap ones when I'm clearly not ready. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail,,,
It was a better Friday this week, more going on.
France are out as we stand, go on...

I got 173 pts this week however as far as i'm concerned Chris has done better this week and there is a lesson from this post,

I cant give you the breakdown of how many trades i made without going back and working it all out

Chris your record keeping is an example i will try to match, would like to know if you record any other details for the trade and when you record it all.

 

[hungvir]

And your record keeping in turn is better than mine, Eleft If you take 100 points from Chris's winning you'll have my bottome line.

As I do not trade that often, my memory is quite sufficient and I detailed all my trades here anyway. I was exceptionally hyperactive yesterday though. Obviously needed some Beta Blockers

Good trading,

Hung

 

[rols]

And your record keeping in turn is better than mine, Eleft If you take 100 points from Chris's winning you'll have my bottome line.

As I do not trade that often, my memory is quite sufficient and I detailed all my trades here anyway. I was exceptionally hyperactive yesterday though. Obviously needed some Beta Blockers

Good trading,

Hung

The basis of trading in any time frame is so simple. Buy low and sell high. So why is it so difficult to get it right?

Perception is still the number one factor in trading successfully IMO. This is all in the mind not in the charts. I cannot change your perceptions for you, only you can do this. I sense my words are falling onto deaf ears which only serves to emphasise that the personal journey of a trader should in the main be kept personal.

Perceiving the market as a living breathing entity rather than a video game is a good perception for example. How you perceive yourself will be reflected onto how you see the charts. This is why I consider it pointless to say buy when line A crosses line B only on a Wednesday.

Good trading to all!

 

[Splitlink]

I was exceptionally hyperactive yesterday though. Obviously needed some Beta Blockers

Good trading,

Hung

Intraday trading on the Dow does that to you!. You know what I think of that but, since you made 23 points the day before you lost 22 you still have a point for a cup of coffee and Monday starts a new leaf.

Someone on another thread said that he traded a share that follows the Dow very well, without the volatility and he trades overnight. That could be a way to go.

I know one thing. since I have taken an interest in this thread I have shortened my timeframe
considerablely and I know that, for me, that is not good, which is why I have stepped back. Also, from the number of pages posted, more than I can possibly get through, I have the impression that you are all infecting each other with the excitement of opening and closing trades and that losses are explained away as lessons to be learned. Lessons that are ignored in the excitement of the next trade, if that trade is a win.

This thread is getting very feverish- take it easy. London trading overnight is a more restful pastime but no one does it anymore

Split

.

 

[hungvir]

Rols,

Your words were definitely not falling on deaf ears as you perceive it

But you're right that every trading journey is very personal. The question is should we keep it personal?! I think we learnt a lot from each others' failures and successes and that's why I have been very open on this thread about my mistakes. I hope that a small number of traders will not repeat the same mistakes that I've been making. After all private investors' trading accounts for just a single digit of the total market's volume. The more we share and stand together, the better.

I've learnt a lot from you and others but there're much more to learn of course. But there'll be a day when I can say that 'I can feel that the market is coming down' and it will Except for day trading with maximum pain threshold of 20 points, I've been staying out of this market altogether. So not much night sleep has been lost.

By the way, how many screens do you trade? I have just one at the moment but I think I can do with three more, one for execution and three others for different time frames/markets.

Will take a friend of mine from university out today around London so will have lots of fun. We went to university together in Vietnam and he's here working on a film about Vietnam for the Department for Foreign International Development.

Thanks a lot again!

Happy trading,

Hung

 

[hungvir]

Intraday trading on the Dow does that to you!. You know what I think of that but, since you made 23 points the day before you lost 22 you still have a point for a cup of coffee and Monday starts a new leaf.

Someone on another thread said that he traded a share that follows the Dow very well, without the volatility and he trades overnight. That could be a way to go.

I know one thing. since I have taken an interest in this thread I have shortened my timeframe
considerablely and I know that, for me, that is not good, which is why I have stepped back. Also, from the number of pages posted, more than I can possibly get through, I have the impression that you are all infecting each other with the excitement of opening and closing trades and that losses are explained away as lessons to be learned. Lessons that are ignored in the excitement of the next trade, if that trade is a win.

This thread is getting very feverish- take it easy. London trading overnight is a more restful pastime but no one does it anymore

Split

.

Good observation, Split! You'll surely pass the driving test here if you have to take it again

I'll slow it down and will stick to Fins for execution. But I meant it when I said I learnt a lot from those hasty trades.

And just been thru the first three months of my three year trading degree Yesterday's trades reminded me that I am not there yet while Thursday's trades made me want to quit my job and trade full time

Good trading,

Hung

 

[Splitlink]

I sense my words are falling onto deaf ears which only serves to emphasise that the personal journey of a trader should in the main be kept personal.

Good trading to all!

I hope not, Rols, because they are very true.

Split

 

[Splitlink]

Good observation, Split! You'll surely pass the driving test here if you have to take it again

There you are, you see, I don't think I'll ever have to pass it again.

Split