Chart Patterns - tosh?

roguetrader said:
For anyone interested some lite reading

http://www.dolefin.com/technicalanalysis/
Good article. In a small way this article decribes how historical data can be used to forecast the near future. This is THE concept that makes me gravitate to TA . The second concept that pulls me to TA is the idea that tommorrows price "MOST" of the time is near yesterday's or day befores price. Not all the time but most of the time. Maybe not exactly as yesterdays price but close enough to make money.

However, my view is somewhat different than say a pure chartist. While I recognize that chart patterns do repeat and they do tend to resolve at least some of the time in certain ways I still don't use them much. Why? Because they are still subjective. If the basis of a forecast is subjective doesn't that tend to make the forecast subjective? However, I still strongly believe in using past data to forecast the near future. The difference, I think, is that you remove the subjectivity when your forecast is based on the behaviour of "actual" numbers and not on an interpretation of a pattern even though that pattern was created by actual numbers. I can visually see a pattern that you might not see. Or you might see one that I might not see. Or we could both see a different pattern. We have seen enough posts on this thread to validate what I just said. If one looks back over the posts it is easy to see that several of us looking at the same pattern saw things differently. Now, in such a case, our forecast will be based upon what we see and what we have been taught should be a probable outcome of such a pattern. Is that not correct? However, forecasting with pure price data using only the numbers removes the subjectivity. Am I correct in this? If not please correct me. So, my point is: if we take pure price data (i.e.numbers) and devise a system that does alot of number crunching then perhaps that system can "spit" out a probable (when I say probable I mean at least 70% and above) forecast of what prices "should" do tommorow based upon these numbers.

pttrader
 
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Chartman,

it time this thread was closed. Surely you have all exhausted all possibilities?

In my view it should stay open because d998 has said that he will put a framework together of how he trades and that is good.


Paul
 
Fairy nuff,
one argument I don't hold with is the idea that because a chart looks different in one timeframe compared to another then it is bunk... a shorter timeframe will invariably be trading smaller moves, a longer timeframe can trade long while a short timeframe trades short quite happily - one is trading the minor moves, one the longer, and both have stops set at appropriate levels so that the longer timeframe does not exit as readily, thus avoiding the smaller swings causing an exit prematurely.

From that you can logically deduce that a pattern in one timeframe can still be significant even if contradicted in another timeframe by an opposite pattern... I have no evidence to support my view that a 'nearby timeframe' (eg going from 3 mins to 5 mins) that is contradictory is a warning sign that all is not well, the trend is changing perhaps, whilst seeing a difference between more widely seperated timesframes (say 3 mins vs 30 mins) is no real cause for worry.

This is different, I'd suggest, to 2 people seeing different things on the same chart where the two disagree - although if one is picking out a geomtric pattern while the other is picking out something like the price range and volume, Dojis etc then there is a grey area, where factors might be weighted incorrectly.... mostly speaking many TA 'patterns' are really just formalised statements of ideas like 'downtrend has ended, tops and bottoms are rising, bull rally...' Their advantage is that they reduce the mental notes we need, saying 'pattern X, that's bullish' is easier than remembering the ins and outs of why pattern X is bullish - consider a H&S, we recognise them easily, spot the neckline, check for a failed attempt to climb above it, pick the expected target and off we go. I'm not saying the H&S is great, once you find the first one they're all over the place <g> BUT the point is that you recognise it as a bull or bear setup, and have a price projection for it, without tracing out six or more bar sequences.....

Dave
 
I would like to point out that I wasn't attempting to discredit Ducati or provide any 'ammo' to those who have been sorely irritated.

I was just researching Gran't posts. I remebered him as a quality poster and wondered at what point he starting causing this reaction.

And I can't really spot it. Bit of a 'brisk exchange' with Socco, but we've all been there :LOL: .

His first post seemed germaine to this thread, hence my decision to pose the question. Not a trap, just interested in the reasons for the apparent 180 degree change of view. If indeed it is a 180 degree change.

How about we all (including Ducati) just carry on...about "Chart Patterns - Tosh/Not Tosh".

And Grant, what is your 'ulterior motive'? Doesn't matter if anyone believes you or not, but I'm sure many would be interested.
 
Tony,
Since you researched the post, I shall provide an answer for you. If you look at the date, it is from August 2003. Pretty much around that time I switched from technicals to Fundamentals.

The reason being that I was trading a day/swing style, and I had a trade in JCOM. Now, I had a stoploss that triggered on EOD, and I exited, taking a $0.10 loss. Over the next 3 trading days the price rose almost $15. To say I was mildly put out would be fair.

At that point, more or less I decided that what I thought I knew probably didn't amount to a row of beans, but I would find out.
Now before pttrader has a coronary, although this was a losing trade, and I had the usual mix of wins/losses, net, I was profitable. This can easily be verified as I posted all trades live in real time for a period of 8 months, the trades are still there, and I ended with something like $98K profit.

Anyway, I digress, upon my conversion, a born again evangelist for the fundamental truth, my trading philosophy, methodology, all changed or evolved. Evolve or die.....

Now I have been investing/trading this way for a little over 1year now. In 12 months I have not lost 1 cent........no losing trades. My bank has gone to just over $400K. My 15% target, yes I misled you somewhat, that is per trade, but as each trade is 100% of my trading capital, it stretched the truth only a small way.

Now at the start of this thread I simply said that for the MAJORITY T/A is not going to be profitable for all the reasons outlined. For those whom it is a failure, then there are alternatives.What I do feel however is that there is misrepresentation regarding technical methodologies.........intentional or unintentional, the result is the same, confusion for those struggling to come to grips with it.

My ulterior motive is simply that I have opened a small managed funds company with currently 2 clients here in Auckland. I have a potential client who wishes to place up to $10M on a staggered basis with me. Unfortunately he is Australian and believes "Mechanical" trading as the holy grail.....................I need a Technical (mechanical) trader who may wish to relocate to Auckland, I will provide work permits, etc. My fees to clients are 0.5%/month, and 20% of profits. You can do the sums yourself.

Trader333,
I will post an outline on a new thread sometime tomorrow.
cheers d998
 
The reason I said let's close it because there's too much sniping and bitching going on. Get back on topic guys.... and leave the 'irrelevants' out of it.
 
hey dow stocks take 30 mins to come online.... they open a stock every minute so by 15.00 all of the dow is open....
 
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