Can the Labour party re-invent Socialism ?

[tomorton]

It seems at the monent we've got Socialism re-inventing the Labour Party.

 

[Pat494]

Corbyn has been a unilateral disarmament leader since the 70s. Must have been a disappointment to him that he didn't manage to push this one through Union opposition to scrapping Trident.

Personally I prefer multi-lateral nuclear disarmament. Unfortunately it doesn't look likely. Just throwing ours away means we will have to pay the USA for their protection. The good ole protection racket is universal from Bombay to Washington even on national scales. Building 4 new subs that Cameron wants though does seem extravagant.

 

[Pat494]

2 Labour peers have dropped the labour whip in the Lords. Corbyn should read T2W for some decent ideas.

 

[Atilla]

I think this is a fantastic vote winner from Corbyn and gets my vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35330331

About time ultra fat cats got something to think about and a decent living wage becomes a national standard.

Fairer distribution of income will also help build a stronger better more happier society and contribute towards also achieving increased economic activity.

 

[Trader333]

Sounds great in theory but in practice as soon as any government tries to implement such a measure the industry exits the country as has happened to all our major industries in the past.

 

[Atilla]

Sounds great in theory but in practice as soon as any government tries to implement such a measure the industry exits the country as has happened to all our major industries in the past.

No not at all. This is much trumpeted theory touted by super duper so called smart economists. One example being privatisation will give us more choice and look where we are with rail or mobile telecommunications?

Don't wish to digress, my point being capitalism and it's pure theory doesn't live up to it's name. Company directors do not maximise shareholder profits. They maximise short term personal rewards at the expense of shareholder and social expense.

Industry will locate to where there is disposable income.

Concentrating income in the hands of the few who have what they need doesn't lead to increased level of economic activity. It skews pretty much most things.

A better distribution of income will lead to increased economic activity as well as creative ability as humans go from trying to exist to a bit more of good living and creativity.


One other point where rising incomes beyond a certain level does not produce one to work harder. On the contrary one substitutes leisure against work.


One can think of it in terms of Marginal Incentive to Work harder - MIW is higher at lower incomes than higher levels.


Anyway glad someone is calling it out.

We are not talking about giving money to lazy claimants but to hard graft workers. In fact I feel this will encourage the lazy unemployed effectively providing a real incentive for them to get on their bike.


Where a company doesn't wish to pay a fair wage well they can go and locate somewhere else.


Some companies even stepping up to the plate and offering minimum living wage without prompting like Lidl for example.


Public and consumers will vote with their monies soon enough.

 

[tomorton]

The living wage is not a legal requirement and no entity should be punished by statutory action in the UK for not paying it. If a government wishes to increase the national minimum wage to such a level that's fine, let them do so.

In the meantime, I expect a legitimate government to enforce and support contracts, not to interfere with the terms of some or other for the sake of votes.

Inequality might (or might not) be economically disadvantageous for the country but either way ultra vires action against legitimate commercial concerns is not the way forward.

 

[Atilla]

Not a legal requirement now perhaps but it certainly should be! That is precisely the manifesto objective and laws that may come to pass with new Labour.

I expect goverment to enforce and support contracts for all it's citizens who are at work. Companies have no compulsion against hiring illegal migrant labour, avoiding PAYE and NI payments altogether. Companies also have no compulsion to do the right thing but will award fat cats ridiculous bonuses irrespective of loss to shareholder value taking short term high risks. System needs redress. Instead greedy bad management, hide behind expensive suits, rolling out theories which have no place in our modern world; like maximising profits or shareholder value!

Minimum wage doesn't seem to have raised unemployment and doesn't look like Tories will ever re-appeal the law which is pretty widely accepted now. Same deceptive arguements were made against it by economists claiming it will raise unemployment.

We are not talking about inequality and one misses the point in changing the debate. We are talking about a fair living wage. Equitable distribution of income not equal!

Migrant labour will work for less than the minimum or living wage. Do we want the UK to become like the third world countries where there is big variation between the very rich and very poor or like the well managed social democratic countries of Europe where living standards and happiness indicators are higher?


Corbyn is Showing a clear alternative which will pose a signficant and clear threat to the Tories. I can see new policies and new paradigms in the making.


We are at the cusp of a new era...

 

[tomorton]

If anyone even suspects a company of paying less then the national minumum wage they should inform HMRC, they don't need cast iron evidence, just some basis for the complaint. Likewise re employing illegal immigrants - the authorities would be glad to hear of it. There are totally adequate actions they can take (in fact are statutorily required to take) to stop these things - no need to re-structure the whole of society or even elect a new government.

If any shareholder thinks they're being deprived of divdend for unjustified bonus payments to the company's employees, there are actions they can take. If they don't use these long established options that can only suggest they believe the payments are appropriate and/or insignificant.

The case against inequality of income is not proven economically proven. I will go so far as to crtiticise inequality of access to higher education, as this restricts access to the means for more equitable pay distribution. But even then, the effort and the result is up to the individuals themselves.

 

[Pat494]

I would vote for paying a reasonable basic state pension. It looks as if the uncaring Govt. looks forward to a cold spell to kill off the old in their unheated boxes.

Shameful if that is all the thanks they get. Oh yeah Dipstick buy another Trident submarine.

 

[Splitlink]

What, in your view, is a reasonable basic state pension? Based on what?

 

[Pat494]

What, in your view, is a reasonable basic state pension? Based on what?

Currently it is £84 per week. That just about covers a modest diet for one. But of course there are many more expenses in life. I would think somewhere in excess of £200 per week and a means test so there is no need to give such peanuts to the rich.

It really annoys me to watch the smug b*stards on the front benches. They are alright Jack ! The Socialists have forgotten what it stood for. They have sold out to the rich. Even Union bosses live in rent free mansions plus expensive holidays abroad. The rat bags.

Corbyn is right to point out that the average boss of a big public company gets paid 300+ times the lowest paid in the same company. Do they need all that money - no. Do the people on a basic wage need more - definitely.

Say no to economic slavery

 

[counter_violent]

Not a legal requirement now perhaps but it certainly should be! That is precisely the manifesto objective and laws that may come to pass with new Labour.

I expect goverment to enforce and support contracts for all it's citizens who are at work. Companies have no compulsion against hiring illegal migrant labour, avoiding PAYE and NI payments altogether. Companies also have no compulsion to do the right thing but will award fat cats ridiculous bonuses irrespective of loss to shareholder value taking short term high risks. System needs redress. Instead greedy bad management, hide behind expensive suits, rolling out theories which have no place in our modern world; like maximising profits or shareholder value!

Minimum wage doesn't seem to have raised unemployment and doesn't look like Tories will ever re-appeal the law which is pretty widely accepted now. Same deceptive arguements were made against it by economists claiming it will raise unemployment.

We are not talking about inequality and one misses the point in changing the debate. We are talking about a fair living wage. Equitable distribution of income not equal!

Migrant labour will work for less than the minimum or living wage. Do we want the UK to become like the third world countries where there is big variation between the very rich and very poor or like the well managed social democratic countries of Europe where living standards and happiness indicators are higher?


Corbyn is Showing a clear alternative which will pose a signficant and clear threat to the Tories. I can see new policies and new paradigms in the making.


We are at the cusp of a new era...

The bloke is a complete idiot.
Here's his latest nonsense...keep the nuclear fleet cos of the jobs, but don't arm them....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35337432

 

[Pat494]

Labour could take in tax anything over 10 times the lowest paid in the same company. Not many bosses are known on their own shop floor either. A definite lack of coordination and teamwork it seems to me.
The myth that the highest paid elite are always the best, is wrong too. They aren't as is plainly obvious in the c*ck-ups by leading politicians. Gordon Brown's pompous utterings were proved to be ridiculous when tested. etc.

Bring in the word FAIR to company structures and see the difference that makes !

 

[Trader333]

Corbyn is Showing a clear alternative which will pose a signficant and clear threat to the Tories

You are missing key points here,

1) He is not seen as a credible leader and as such is unelectable
2) His own party is divided so badly that it makes them also totally unelectable.

In 2020 if he is still leading the party they will get slaughtered at the election for the third successive time. Whilst there will be a lot of intenet comments and views about how they will win the next election it is important to remember what happened in 2015. We had the same internet led belief that Labour would win easily and form a coaltion with the SNP but what happened ?

The Tories won with an overall majority which was a complete shock to all forms of media and why was that ? Because there is a very large section of the UK who don't post their views or intentions on the internet and it will be the same in 2020.

Let's come back here in 4 years time and see what the result is.

I do have a question for you Atilla, do you think we should stay or leave the EU ?

 

[Atilla]

The bloke is a complete idiot.
Here's his latest nonsense...keep the nuclear fleet cos of the jobs, but don't arm them....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35337432

Agree when it comes to the military. He is a total pacifist and off his rocker.

This is where leaders fail. Somehow, they forget the nation comprises of myriads of people and interests and end up skewed.

Heart is in the right place, just not certain how long it will be allowed to tick.


Point remains however, UK's nuclear deterrent is about 1.5% of the Worlds total and that figure maybe smaller now. It is not likely to make much difference to any outcome, should such an event occur.

Current government believes spending billions on a new submarine is value whilst allowing national infrastructure to run down along with manufacturing industry is okay.

There is a very strong and highly probable view; countries that do not possess nuclear weapons are the ones that will come to survive such an event.


To think we can join in and make a difference with our poultry 1.5% is a joke.

Better off investing in humanitarian response imo and charge countries for our services in the aftermath but I know you'll all fall off your chairs laughing your heads off.

 

[Atilla]

You are missing key points here,

1) He is not seen as a credible leader and as such is unelectable
2) His own party is divided so badly that it makes them also totally unelectable.

In 2020 if he is still leading the party they will get slaughtered at the election for the third successive time. Whilst there will be a lot of intenet comments and views about how they will win the next election it is important to remember what happened in 2015. We had the same internet led belief that Labour would win easily and form a coaltion with the SNP but what happened ?

The Tories won with an overall majority which was a complete shock to all forms of media and why was that ? Because there is a very large section of the UK who don't post their views or intentions on the internet and it will be the same in 2020.

Let's come back here in 4 years time and see what the result is.

I do have a question for you Atilla, do you think we should stay or leave the EU ?

Sadly I agree with you. He has some great ideas and also some dreadful ones too.

I've always said UK's place is in the EU and wouldn't dream of leaving it. Worst possible outcome for the UK if it does.

US, Latin America, Asia are all forming trading pacts and trying to emulate the EU and here is UK thinking it can do better on it's own. What a remarkably stupid response to changing world order.

Some tories and ultra nationalists have gone barmy over a few immigrants and the black economy.

On the other hand we have mega big projects such as Airbus, Euro-Fighter, European Space program and the Hadron collider not to mention EU being our biggest trading block partner and some fruit cakes think we can do better with 30 common wealth countries (with low disposable incomes) or existing as an Island on our own protecting our own borders as if - we don't do this already.

I sit next to an elderly chap who is very near retirement and he absolutely can't wait to have his vote to get out. Doesn't travel much, hates foreign migrants and dual EU parliament expenses and non-audited accounts along with they Kinnock dynasty.

Not so concerned about our politicians expenses scandal as if UK is whiter than white.


Anyhow, we each soldier on to what one thinks is best. I'm all in.

 

[counter_violent]

You are missing key points here,

1) He is not seen as a credible leader and as such is unelectable
2) His own party is divided so badly that it makes them also totally unelectable.

In 2020 if he is still leading the party they will get slaughtered at the election for the third successive time. Whilst there will be a lot of intenet comments and views about how they will win the next election it is important to remember what happened in 2015. We had the same internet led belief that Labour would win easily and form a coaltion with the SNP but what happened ?

The Tories won with an overall majority which was a complete shock to all forms of media and why was that ? Because there is a very large section of the UK who don't post their views or intentions on the internet and it will be the same in 2020.

Let's come back here in 4 years time and see what the result is.

I do have a question for you Atilla, do you think we should stay or leave the EU ?[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I think we are leaving...and then, I think the EU will all turn in on themselves...and it will all be because of the movement of peoples, refugees and border control, or lack of !

 

[Atilla]

Going to university in Holland is a real choice now.

Better value and hopefully our lot can get to learn a few other languages. Started indoctrinating my kids already - and can see a few holidays coming up there soon in the next couple of years.

Open the borders and let people take care of their own business within the union I say.

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/europe/netherlands/

 

[Splitlink]

You are missing key points here,

1) He is not seen as a credible leader and as such is unelectable
2) His own party is divided so badly that it makes them also totally unelectable.

In 2020 if he is still leading the party they will get slaughtered at the election for the third successive time. Whilst there will be a lot of intenet comments and views about how they will win the next election it is important to remember what happened in 2015. We had the same internet led belief that Labour would win easily and form a coaltion with the SNP but what happened ?

The Tories won with an overall majority which was a complete shock to all forms of media and why was that ? Because there is a very large section of the UK who don't post their views or intentions on the internet and it will be the same in 2020.

Let's come back here in 4 years time and see what the result is.

I do have a question for you Atilla, do you think we should stay or leave the EU ?

I'm a Brit but an observer, really, because I live out here. I agree with you that the Conservatives got in because of English fears of a Labour/SNP coalition.

There is no doubt that the West is, generally, an unfair society but I don't think that Pensioners will have a better quality of life by raising the pension.

If the government run short of money they will, simply, print more. That is why, over the last 60 years my dad, a London bus driver, earned about 7 pounds per week when I was 15 and, today, they earn hundreds----and they still want par with the tube train drivers! Pensioners' savings are always going to be at risk because of this, not because of pension increases. My parents (she was a factory war worker) bought their house. Now, no one can afford it!

There has to be a fundamental change in capitalism and it is no good one country going it alone. It has to be global. There are 28 member states in the EU. None of them can agree. Now, it is in danger of breaking up. Good or bad? Frankly, I don't know. I used to be for EU but, if there is no real progress what advantages are there?