Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

kevin546 said:
We have discussed the concept of stops and how important they are and difficult to apply to the uninitiated. When can they be over-ruled. When you have developed greater awareness of this system and how the market position can unfold so that your deal begins to change. When the reason for your entry is not longer present or relevant.

This I feel is where you can attempt to improve on stops by closing your deal in advance of the stop, from knowledge you have acquired correctly it has become evident that this particular deal is not going to work and the balance of probabilities are no longer in your favour but are now more likely to result in a loss.

However this step should not be considered until this area of your trading has been fully researched according to your correct method, without this you may find yourself closing to early and missing out. This aspect I also feel is another skill to master and relies on the ability to evaluate changing conditions and the relevance of this according to your position. So it should not be attempted until researched and paper traded so that you understand how to do it correctly. In a way I think it is a revaluation of the risk you are willing to accept according to the changing developments.

Regards

Kevin
Yes Kevin, because what happens is that when you become totally familiar with it, you will be able to sense in advance of the stop being hit, that although you were right at the time, now conditions have subtly changed. At this precise moment, if you really have a grip on the situation you could do this and thus minimise losses even further. But this is an acquired skill, and because it is a skill, it needs time to be able to develop it properly.
 
Thirteen said:
been reading my posts again have u albert?


:LOL: :LOL:
Yes because you are such an idiot. Others may not think so because their yardtick is not sufficiently developed to recognise a real idiot when they blunder onto one, but, having a lot of experience in dealing with other idiots, I can instantly recogise you as a huge one.
 
I'm sorry Albert. I've kept quiet up till now on this public thread. I've tried to help you via PM, But you really are you're own worst enemy - as you always knew you were. And you KNOW that's where you want to be really ('look what they've done to me "AGAIN" ' Dear Lord...)

dbp had some credibility also until he tied his raft to yours - and now - he's as much a sad an old b*astard as you are. You've trawled the newbies and the weak spirited - as you always do.

Even poor old Rognvald is resurrected for a final comeback finale after his last finale...sorry Ron, I like you, but you're in a bad way my friend.

The reason you never (ever) took the opportunity to have a private forum is because you NEED a 20,000+ audience.

You have as much delight in displaying your (imagined) skills in seeing off the detractors as you do delivering your central message - which never actually gets delivered. Just a constant tease with implications of 'more to come'. Which it never will. You've never kept your promises. "I will reply to all who have PM d me" - You never did.

"I have been too sick to post" (except on ET where you hoped to drum up new cult followers").

And THE BONFIRE - give me a break...any credibility you may have garnered - straight out of the window.

And the promise off a response to the CW situation which you recently (only just) posted which dug you even deeper into the someone-not-to-share-a-taxi-with brigade.

On the plus side, you have made a number of illuminating points - some of which have transformed my trading - (for which I thank you) - but you are seriously planked....and you know it.

If you took away all the early childhood stuff which you resent to desperately (your Mother is NOT to blame - she really HAD to play piano) and stopped trying to be more than you are - you would be warmly welcomed into any society of traders. Just say your piece - in one post - not 100,000 (or are you still watching the stats to see how may views - and how may viewing currently?)

The fact that you and dbp and and Mr. Charts and others make it out ot be such a tough game and one to which few aspire is only a lamentable indication of that genuine loneliness you feel. It ain't hard - It ain't difficult. It only makes it so if you spend too much time on t2w....listening to worthless prophets with too much time on their hands and no real life issues to take their attention...

Albert - I salute your knowledge and your control of a large group in an e-medium, but heartily deplore your inept management of an audience that you may well injure with you ego. Especially the newbies and the weak-willed.

For those who still have the capacity to understand what I am saying, don't put all you eggs in this basket (or any basket for that matter), move on to stuff which is more appropriate to your aims and goals. To stuff which you can USE TODAY...
 
TheBramble said:
For those who still have the capacity to understand what I am saying, don't put all you eggs in this basket (or any basket for that matter), move on to stuff which is more appropriate to your aims and goals. To stuff which you can USE TODAY...

That's it? Gee, I wish I'd met you twenty years ago. I could have saved myself so much time by moving on to stuff.

Better late than never.

Thanks. :)
 
Bramble, as if wit, looks and wealth were not enough ~ you have no brains either. Do you think I am going to allow what you started left unfinished ? For you it is very easy, hopping from thread to thread, prodding here and prodding there, teasing, making mischief, encouraging controversy but never systematically putting your attention on anything of real merit. I am not like you. I do not view this as simple or that it can be mastered in a day like you can or that what has to be said should be left unsaid because it suits you personally or otherwise. It does not suit me and the audience needs to know the facts.Also you are under the erroneous impression that everybody here has multiple nicks, this implies we are all nuts and talking to ourselves. We are not.: we are laying out the facts. Brutal and to the point. There is too much gossip and chit chat for my liking, and that is it, and in addition anyone who deserves to get a cannonball from me gets it, of that you can be sure, and it always is well aimed and hits the target squarely.
 
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Is it possible to just ignore the posts that are intended to annoy you and just talk about trading? It is hard for me to believe that you all are able to trade in an unemotional manner, when you are so easily provoked. If someone is trying to get a rise out of you, the worst blow you can land is to just pretend they didn't even post....

I'd like to hear dbphoenix elaborate on what he meant win he said we need to unlearn this:
"you have to be in to win"

JO
 
"Also you are under the erroneous impression that everybody here has multiple nicks"

I don't recall Bramble saying that. What we do know is that there are a few on this BB with multiple nicks. To the best of my knowledge, Soc is not one of them. Neither is Bramble.
 
My input on ‘stop psychology’……

Firstly, when we start out our aim is to make money not lose it. Remember, the markets that the snake oil salesmen show us are easy to trade, just look at those clear V shaped changes in trend and just look how long those trend runs are….oh my…$4.00 to $18.50 in 6 weeks, just imagine what my five grand would look like now if I caught that one ! We are not preparing ourselves for loss and defeat, we smell victory and month on month double digit percentage growth of our capital. Why do we need a stop ? Surely stops are for the people who expect a loss ?

First point – Our mindset is one of positive outlook, we expect to win, that is why we are playing.

Secondly, after having played the game a short while we notice that we are losing money for some reason. Not only are our losses from bad trading mounting but our transaction costs are also quite high. The cost of moving in and out of deals is a weight on our minds. If only I could open a deep discount account and move away from this internet broker who charges £20 minimum each way on trades. Psychologically we feel that we are not getting a ‘fair ride’ for our money, and what is worse is, it costs more money in fees when we get stopped out.

Second point – We view stops negatively, the word ‘stop’ reminds us of loss and of costs, the thought is a painful one and one we would avoid like an electric fence.

Thirdly – We notice that when we place a stop, the market retraces to our stop, takes us out, and then reverses. Because we perceive the market as some kind of beast or animal we start to feel like we are being stalked. The way around this is to either widen the stop from the outset or take the stop off just before it is hit. Of course, the market being the market, it allows us to get away with such an indiscretion when we first try it, a form of beginners luck no doubt.

Third point – We see stops as flexible, this helps lessen the pain caused by my second point. It means we stay on the ride a little longer and we notice that we initially have less losing trades because positions retrace after touching our initial stop level. We feel that we are better managing the concept of loss. Of course the BIG loser, which will undo 3 times the value of our good work, is only a few trades away.

Fourthly – Through shear mathematical genius, we work out that if we buy a second multiple at our initial stop level, the stock will only have to retrace half as much before we go into profit. Again, a cruel twist of fate allows us to pull off our cunning scam on several occasions. Stocks always bounce at some point, averaging the losing trade is our new ‘tool’ which will help us.

Fourth point – When we are new, the market seems to let us get away with things which we later learn to be untrue.

Fifthly- I opened a position this morning for a scalp, it’s gone against me and I have tried all my ‘tricks’ (ie moving stops / cost averaging etc). I may keep it as a position trade. Classic phrase guys. I have lost count of the number of times new traders have come out with this one.

Fifth point – We remove stops altogether. We justify this to ourselves because we are now running a ‘position trade’ and not a short term scalp. We are now living in hope. We are not in control of the trade, in fact, the trade is in control of us. We are over committed and there is a risk of having to provide further margin.

Good Morning,
Steve.
 
JumpOff said:
I'd like to hear dbphoenix elaborate on what he meant win he said we need to unlearn this:
"you have to be in to win"
He means that sometimes, you're better off NOT being in the market. You win by not losing.
 
TheBramble said:
I'm sorry Albert. I've kept quiet up till now on this public thread. I've tried to help you via PM, But you really are you're own worst enemy - as you always knew you were. And you KNOW that's where you want to be really ('look what they've done to me "AGAIN" ' Dear Lord...)

dbp had some credibility also until he tied his raft to yours - and now - he's as much a sad an old b*astard as you are. You've trawled the newbies and the weak spirited - as you always do.

Even poor old Rognvald is resurrected for a final comeback finale after his last finale...sorry Ron, I like you, but you're in a bad way my friend.

The reason you never (ever) took the opportunity to have a private forum is because you NEED a 20,000+ audience.

You have as much delight in displaying your (imagined) skills in seeing off the detractors as you do delivering your central message - which never actually gets delivered. Just a constant tease with implications of 'more to come'. Which it never will. You've never kept your promises. "I will reply to all who have PM d me" - You never did.

"I have been too sick to post" (except on ET where you hoped to drum up new cult followers").

And THE BONFIRE - give me a break...any credibility you may have garnered - straight out of the window.

And the promise off a response to the CW situation which you recently (only just) posted which dug you even deeper into the someone-not-to-share-a-taxi-with brigade.

On the plus side, you have made a number of illuminating points - some of which have transformed my trading - (for which I thank you) - but you are seriously planked....and you know it.

If you took away all the early childhood stuff which you resent to desperately (your Mother is NOT to blame - she really HAD to play piano) and stopped trying to be more than you are - you would be warmly welcomed into any society of traders. Just say your piece - in one post - not 100,000 (or are you still watching the stats to see how may views - and how may viewing currently?)

The fact that you and dbp and and Mr. Charts and others make it out ot be such a tough game and one to which few aspire is only a lamentable indication of that genuine loneliness you feel. It ain't hard - It ain't difficult. It only makes it so if you spend too much time on t2w....listening to worthless prophets with too much time on their hands and no real life issues to take their attention...

Albert - I salute your knowledge and your control of a large group in an e-medium, but heartily deplore your inept management of an audience that you may well injure with you ego. Especially the newbies and the weak-willed.

For those who still have the capacity to understand what I am saying, don't put all you eggs in this basket (or any basket for that matter), move on to stuff which is more appropriate to your aims and goals. To stuff which you can USE TODAY...

PHEW .

thats told it how it is. imho (being serious for once)
 
I'd like to further add to Bramble's comment. We feel that we are missing out if we are not in a trade. The market is still moving around and we are 'square wheeled'. Our first experiences of such feelings and learnings are made when we are 4 years old when we find out that someone is having a birthday party and all your friends are invited but you are not. You feel left out and rejected. It is indeed a painful feeling.

Steve.

PS Last time we say by and watched the Dow rallied for 3 days making over 250 points. We are tempted not to miss that again.
 
stevespray said:
My input on ‘stop psychology’……

Firstly, when we start out our aim is to make money not lose it. Remember, the markets that the snake oil salesmen show us are easy to trade, just look at those clear V shaped changes in trend and just look how long those trend runs are….oh my…$4.00 to $18.50 in 6 weeks, just imagine what my five grand would look like now if I caught that one ! We are not preparing ourselves for loss and defeat, we smell victory and month on month double digit percentage growth of our capital. Why do we need a stop ? Surely stops are for the people who expect a loss ?

First point – Our mindset is one of positive outlook, we expect to win, that is why we are playing.

Secondly, after having played the game a short while we notice that we are losing money for some reason. Not only are our losses from bad trading mounting but our transaction costs are also quite high. The cost of moving in and out of deals is a weight on our minds. If only I could open a deep discount account and move away from this internet broker who charges £20 minimum each way on trades. Psychologically we feel that we are not getting a ‘fair ride’ for our money, and what is worse is, it costs more money in fees when we get stopped out.

Second point – We view stops negatively, the word ‘stop’ reminds us of loss and of costs, the thought is a painful one and one we would avoid like an electric fence.

Thirdly – We notice that when we place a stop, the market retraces to our stop, takes us out, and then reverses. Because we perceive the market as some kind of beast or animal we start to feel like we are being stalked. The way around this is to either widen the stop from the outset or take the stop off just before it is hit. Of course, the market being the market, it allows us to get away with such an indiscretion when we first try it, a form of beginners luck no doubt.

Third point – We see stops as flexible, this helps lessen the pain caused by my second point. It means we stay on the ride a little longer and we notice that we initially have less losing trades because positions retrace after touching our initial stop level. We feel that we are better managing the concept of loss. Of course the BIG loser, which will undo 3 times the value of our good work, is only a few trades away.

Fourthly – Through shear mathematical genius, we work out that if we buy a second multiple at our initial stop level, the stock will only have to retrace half as much before we go into profit. Again, a cruel twist of fate allows us to pull off our cunning scam on several occasions. Stocks always bounce at some point, averaging the losing trade is our new ‘tool’ which will help us.

Fourth point – When we are new, the market seems to let us get away with things which we later learn to be untrue.

Fifthly- I opened a position this morning for a scalp, it’s gone against me and I have tried all my ‘tricks’ (ie moving stops / cost averaging etc). I may keep it as a position trade. Classic phrase guys. I have lost count of the number of times new traders have come out with this one.

Fifth point – We remove stops altogether. We justify this to ourselves because we are now running a ‘position trade’ and not a short term scalp. We are now living in hope. We are not in control of the trade, in fact, the trade is in control of us. We are over committed and there is a risk of having to provide further margin.

Good Morning,
Steve.

my thoughts on some ofyour points

P1) For sure.

P2) My stop is placed to avoid pain

Thirdly)
We notice that when we place a stop, the market retraces to our stop, takes us out, and then reverses
Then your entry/reading of the price action was wrong.

P3)
We see stops as flexible
. NO,stops should be as tight as the market will allow.

Fourthly) :eek:

Fifthly) Why scalp!? if the market isnt ripe for trading! why trade?
 
stevespray said:
I'd like to further add to Bramble's comment. We feel that we are missing out if we are not in a trade. The market is still moving around and we are 'square wheeled'. Our first experiences of such feelings and learnings are made when we are 4 years old when we find out that someone is having a birthday party and all your friends are invited but you are not. You feel left out and rejected. It is indeed a painful feeling.

Steve.

PS Last time we say by and watched the Dow rallied for 3 days making over 250 points. We are tempted not to miss that again.


Sitting is at least half the game (my game that is). If you have a problem with it why not set an alarm and turn your screen off?.

Where would you put your alarm/s on the chart below?
 

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stevespray said:
My input on ‘stop psychology’……

Firstly, when we start out our aim is to make money not lose it. Remember, the markets that the snake oil salesmen show us are easy to trade, just look at those clear V shaped changes in trend and just look how long those trend runs are….oh my…$4.00 to $18.50 in 6 weeks, just imagine what my five grand would look like now if I caught that one ! We are not preparing ourselves for loss and defeat, we smell victory and month on month double digit percentage growth of our capital. Why do we need a stop ? Surely stops are for the people who expect a loss ?

First point – Our mindset is one of positive outlook, we expect to win, that is why we are playing.

Secondly, after having played the game a short while we notice that we are losing money for some reason. Not only are our losses from bad trading mounting but our transaction costs are also quite high. The cost of moving in and out of deals is a weight on our minds. If only I could open a deep discount account and move away from this internet broker who charges £20 minimum each way on trades. Psychologically we feel that we are not getting a ‘fair ride’ for our money, and what is worse is, it costs more money in fees when we get stopped out.

Second point – We view stops negatively, the word ‘stop’ reminds us of loss and of costs, the thought is a painful one and one we would avoid like an electric fence.

Thirdly – We notice that when we place a stop, the market retraces to our stop, takes us out, and then reverses. Because we perceive the market as some kind of beast or animal we start to feel like we are being stalked. The way around this is to either widen the stop from the outset or take the stop off just before it is hit. Of course, the market being the market, it allows us to get away with such an indiscretion when we first try it, a form of beginners luck no doubt.

Third point – We see stops as flexible, this helps lessen the pain caused by my second point. It means we stay on the ride a little longer and we notice that we initially have less losing trades because positions retrace after touching our initial stop level. We feel that we are better managing the concept of loss. Of course the BIG loser, which will undo 3 times the value of our good work, is only a few trades away.

Fourthly – Through shear mathematical genius, we work out that if we buy a second multiple at our initial stop level, the stock will only have to retrace half as much before we go into profit. Again, a cruel twist of fate allows us to pull off our cunning scam on several occasions. Stocks always bounce at some point, averaging the losing trade is our new ‘tool’ which will help us.

Fourth point – When we are new, the market seems to let us get away with things which we later learn to be untrue.

Fifthly- I opened a position this morning for a scalp, it’s gone against me and I have tried all my ‘tricks’ (ie moving stops / cost averaging etc). I may keep it as a position trade. Classic phrase guys. I have lost count of the number of times new traders have come out with this one.

Fifth point – We remove stops altogether. We justify this to ourselves because we are now running a ‘position trade’ and not a short term scalp. We are now living in hope. We are not in control of the trade, in fact, the trade is in control of us. We are over committed and there is a risk of having to provide further margin.

Good Morning,
Steve.
Very good post.I struggle with this dilemma very nearly everyday,i identify the stop loss prior to entry as a responsible mindset would do but as the market get's closer my mind switches over
to an irresponsible mindset and the fighting starts between these two mindsets or as i call them between my adult and my child,fighting to stay in or get out.If i get out then my adult has won the day, if i stay in then my child is in charge and can make a real mess of things,like doubling up and losing a big percent of my account.What i'm currently practising is to improve my entry then my exit get's a little easier.If my trades are not on a clear signal and not a clear stop loss then the fight is much stronger.
As i progress slowly on this trading path i find that accepting a losing trade get's a Little easier.
My experience on stops.
Regards
Llew
 
I have little 'jingly bells' at me round (00/50's) numbers DT :cheesy:

and stinkin great claxons at the biggies : 1.75/1.80/1.85's ;)
 
Hi Chartman

ChartMan said:
"Also you are under the erroneous impression that everybody here has multiple nicks"

I don't recall Bramble saying that. What we do know is that there are a few on this BB with multiple nicks. To the best of my knowledge, Soc is not one of them. Neither is Bramble.

Hi Chartman, just since you have mentioned multiple nik's. As DaveJB has mentioned in post 357 of this thread my confusion thinking the thread on the forex was relating DaveJb to Zenda.Was now cleared up .
Forgive me DaveJB but the idiot I am, I am still confused and apologise unreservedly if this is upsetting.

However I did ask you in an earlier post DaveJB, if you thought Chartmans post number 32 was directed at your post number 31. I would be extremely grateful if we could but this to bed and with some simple clear answers if possible.

Chartman, Your post of 32 in which you mention "Toys and Pram" and the only reference I can find to this in any of the posts prior to your comment is in DaveJB post "To throw in the Teddy"
which is directly below DaveJB's. Can you confirm this is just a double coincidence.

DaveJB, Sorry again but this is an important point for us Newbies in my opinion, since I asked a direct question on this and as you are a Teacher, I thought your answer a little vague for a Teacher. I am sorry but I am still confused.

My Intentions are not to disrupt this thread and if anyone believes this post is doing just that I am happy to remove it.

Regards
 
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Darktone.... My post #437 was basically outlining an element of 'trader developement' over a period of time. Of course now I know that stops are important, I have to a large degree overcome the problems which I have listed but I have only been able to do that once I have established what they actually were. I think alot of this type of thing is a case of working something back to its root cause, this then helps with the unlearning process.

Steve.
 
stevespray said:
Darktone.... My post #437 was basically outlining an element of 'trader developement' over a period of time. Of course now I know that stops are important, I have to a large degree overcome the problems which I have listed but I have only been able to do that once I have established what they actually were. I think alot of this type of thing is a case of working something back to its root cause, this then helps with the unlearning process.

Steve.

sure steve, i understand that. was just tyring to put thoughts to your points (ie as to how i view them now) as ive suffered from most of them in the past :)
 
Maybe part of the unlearning process is learning from your mistakes by evaluating them to establish if what you did is relevant to your trading method. What you establish through this process is that whatever you were doing is not relevant because you are losing and not applying your method correctly to the market. Once you discover this you put the problem in the trash can and move on with an alternative until starts to display problem and you go through the unlearning process again and again until you finally get where you need to be.

Stops is just one element of trading but a very important one and is responsible for aiding your success because it stops your losses from overtaking your winners. We spend so much time looking for the holy grail of signals to rewards as with huge profits but no where near the time we should spend on our consideration of when to get out, both in terms of cutting our losses and taking our profits.

If you can master stops then I feel you have taken a huge step forward in your trading. There are other lessons to be unlearned but I believe and I hope I am not proved wrong when I say this, that this is probably the hardest lesson to deal with.

Regards

kevin
 
with respect kevin..the hardest lesson to learn is how to switch off your emotive senses..and this is the process to be unlearned ....if you can master that then you can start to achieve some objectivity and you just might start to process the data that is in front of you with something akin to efficiency ... examples of what I mean by this are plastered all over the thread above.
 
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