Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

Most of the time I am capable of trading in a disciplined manner, paying strict attention to method and system and minimising risk with impartiality and patience, regardless of whether my last trade was a loss or a win. Sometimes this rather dull, sustained concentration actually seems easy, especially if I am not in a trade, as then I can be truly impartial and occupy myself with other matters, with the odd glance at the charts sufficient to alert me to the occasional opportunity. Of course the concentration level must increase dramatically while managing the trade, but even then I generally cope. I have been trading long enough to know the wisdom of sitting on hands, pruning losses and giving profits a decent chance.

The big problem I have lies not so much in my every day approach, which is robust, if unspectacular, but in the odd occasion when inexplicably I cast everything to the wind, perhaps deciding on nothing more than a whim to trade 4 contracts instead of the usual 1 or 2 or to prolifically and badly overtrade in a range, buying tops and selling bottoms with increasing self-disgust, or even to average a loser.

Now this is common enough behaviour among losers, especially newbies

But what irritates and confuses me about this is that

1) Now I have some trading experience, every time I do it at part of me is consciously looking at my actions saying "You idiot! Stop this trade now because every time you do this you lose far more than is sensible and are then miserable because you have broken your own rules and lost money" and yet I carry on, almost in a sort of trance, until the pain gets so bad my conscious mind finally and desperately asserts itself with a controlling act of survival, at which point the trance is lifted and with the predictable remorse, full rationality returns with a vengeance. I look back at the last few minutes and just cannot believe what I just allowed myself to do. Completely of my own volition I acted like the worst sort of loser and knew I was doing it! Madness.

2) There is often no obvious catalyst for the sudden breach of control. It rarely shows itself as a revenge trade, or following a spell of overconfidence, which I could almost understand. I simply sit down at the PC feeling just like I did yesterday when I sniffed out 30 pips and once in a while do something very stupid.

I would love to know when this was likely to happen (as I am never forewarned of my stupidity) and then unlearn the mechanism that causes it.

Sometimes it feels as if its not even me doing it - the impartiality that serves so well to protect my account now distances me from the growing loss and responsibility to eliminate it.

Tis why the one line trading tip that means the most to me is "It's the trades you don't take that make the money."

At least it happens less often than it used to. :)
 
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dbphonenix

I accept the comments you make, it is evident you cannot consider the market as a fair playing ground there are hidden dangers which you must understand and learn how to avoid or beat them. The question must be how to identify these dangers and allow for them within your trading. That is not very easy is it!

Dave JB

Yes I can see where you are coming from and this could be a problem as you have described. However ther could be 2 parts to this process. The one you refer to is the thinking side that can harm the decision making process of how the method is constructed and keeping to the rules or changing them as a result.

I do not speak as a pro I am learning myself and posted to try and get the thread back on track so please do not consider my comments as confirmed. What I will add is my belief process. I believe in myself. I have seen what set ups have worked and which ones' have not. I have tested this over a good period to produce stats to illustrate when I have performed best and when I have performed worst. From this I have developed a faith in what I do. I know I have limitations and I know that if I start thinking the price is going to do this or that then I am in trouble because it will invariably do the opposite of what you think.

What I do when I place a trade I do so because I get a sequence of price action that presents me with a copy-cat set up that I have tested previously. I should point out I only trade one instrument and have only applied this to that instrument. Now when I place this deal I look at the stop position and get tat down on paper with my entry price. At this point I have no idea if I will make a profit, how much profit I will make, if I will lose or come away even. All I do know at this point is that on the balance of probabilities it has worked more times than it has failed. What I do know without anymore data from the price I will lose x amount, the risk and know more. This is fact, the only way I will lose more is if the market takes a great sudden leap and leaves my stop behind in which case I will stop immediately after. I have my expectation based on my tests and results not on my mindset in itself. If the deal moves to my stop I stop no questions asked. Why! Because in the past when I have not I have always, YES ALWAYS lost more. When In have then tallied up my results I have always discovered that my overall position would have proved better if I had kept to my stops. This has no affect on improving my winners but it reduces the points you gave away. I have been hit by this fact so many times that it has stuck that I MUST KEEP TO MY STOPS AT ALL COST BECAUSE NOT ONLY DOES IT SAFEGUARD MY CAPITAL, IT LETS MY WINNERS WORK FOR ME.

So in respect of this debate I feel there are 2 aspects one of 'thinking' and one of 'visual knowledge' and a third the ability to react. I know without rules I am trading blind. I have attempted to place simple basic rules for my trading that relate to those area I have seen visually to work and assist in the management of the deal. I know it is far from perfect but it makes me comfortable and I do not think in the general sense I react to a visual aspect. My expectation is that I would like to make profit but on every entry there is no guarantee of it just a realisation that I will not risk anymore than the stop. I probably take profit all to early because of emotions but I have an attitude of low expectation so it is realistic to obtain with the object to improve on this point as I progress. But I am not going to lose sleep over it, a profit is a profit is my attitude.

It will not be for everyone I accept that and to some extent applaud it because I would want a plan that is my own meeting my own needs and emotions. The areas you debate are important and my approach is unlikely to answer this fully or correctly but like you I hope this takes the discussion forward.

Kevin
 
kevin546 said:
dbphonenix

I accept the comments you make, it is evident you cannot consider the market as a fair playing ground there are hidden dangers which you must understand and learn how to avoid or beat them. The question must be how to identify these dangers and allow for them within your trading. That is not very easy is it!

You misunderstand. Your question was what lessons are there to UNlearn. What I provided was a lesson to UNlearn.
 
db, let me try from another direction: ~

I repeat, and I repeat it again, none of it is there for your benefit, therefore it is a grave mistake to be lulled into a sense of false security and treat it as if it were.
 
Therefore and in addition to the above when you start until you are really proficient at being in command of yourself, that is, when you start and you start from a mechanical aspect, you must use STOPS. The tighter the stop the better, let us see if this one lands....
 
There is no response, because you all believe what it is you are thinking, all 19 of you, which is that you are in command of yourselves, which as newbies you are not. This is because you view all of this via your Human Persona and not as you ought to which is via the Trading Persona which you should strive to cultivate as discussed at length in my thread "Journey from the Basement". Again !
 
SOCRATES said:
db, let me try from another direction: ~

I repeat, and I repeat it again, none of it is there for your benefit, therefore it is a grave mistake to be lulled into a sense of false security and treat it as if it were.

Or from yet another direction.

It is not a "playing field".

It is neither "fair" nor "unfair". It simply "is".
 
I accept that the market is not there for my benefit; nor is a table full of poker players that I can pay to join. What then is the function of a market? Is it simply a vehicle to allocate resources efficiently? Whose benefit is it for if not mine, or that of all the participants as a whole? Sorry for the naive questions.
 
frugi said:
I accept that the market is not there for my benefit; nor is a table full of poker players that I can pay to join. What then is the function of a market? Is it simply a vehicle to allocate resources efficiently? Whose benefit is it for if not mine, or that of all the participants as a whole? Sorry for the naive questions.
Frugi, the prima facie reason for a market is to create a vehicle through which wealth can be allocated, from the moment a security is floated through to its trading via maturity. You are "correctish" in saying it is a vehicle to allocate resources correctly. But included in that allocation process is a selection process, to sort out infefficient participants from efficient participants. I will add to this that the efficient participants earn the right to remain by virtue of their efficency, whereas the non efficient are wiped. And that is why I agree with db. And that is why "it is".
 
And for those of you who feel ripped off or scammed or bamboozled or cheated or flim-flammed or deceived, the last few posts are worth several thousand dollars, or multiples thereof.
 
dbphoenix said:
How can I not? For a trader, reality is a good thing.
Absolutely essential. This is because the market does not and can not repect or take into account the belief structures of individuals. The belief structures of individuals are of no consequece. What matters is the reality structure of the market itself, that we are all obligated to accept whether we like it or not.
 
Dbp

I see I went down the wrong path. Are you saying the unlearning is to do away with the notion of conspiracy towards other market traders, trading 'is simply put, 'this way' because 'that is how it is, a market to be traded profitably or not! There has to be someone on the other end of your deal to complete it and your are either in profit, even or a loss.

Kevin
 
And for those who feel that they're watching a tag team, these are truths that date back thousands of years, though most traders aren't acquainted with them until they read Wyckoff or Livermore.

Nothing new here. And it's all free.
 
Dbp

Taking this further I hope; you are responsible for your own actions when trading and it is not anyone else's fault but your own if you make a mess of it!

kevin
 
dbphoenix said:
In a bear market, money returns to its rightful owners.
I have seen this quoted on your side of The Pond.And I am trying to rack my brains as to who said it. Was it Baruch, Gould, The Commodore, The Deacon or JL ?
 
kevin546 said:
Dbp

I see I went down the wrong path. Are you saying the unlearning is to do away with the notion of conspiracy towards other market traders, trading 'is simply put, 'this way' because 'that is how it is, a market to be traded profitably or not!

Yes.

There has to be someone on the other end of your deal to complete it and your are either in profit, even or a loss.

So what? Does giving "him" a handlebar moustache and a long, black cloak make any difference to how you enter, manage, and exit the trade?
 
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