Bush or Kerry?

[Perrington]

LION63

I understand that some people are actually democratic, however are somehow trapped within the realms of conservatism.

Do you think a democrat does not strive for a better life measured by income ? The difference is, a democratic policy extends the arms of wealth out to those less fortunate than oneself. A conservative merely aims to create a stagnant society, whereby opportunities are provided only for the minority. Maybe they do this because they fear the creativity of children from poorer families may infact outperform their own. I dont feel I really need to explain this to you, as being a conservative, you fully well understand.

 

[zambuck]

Planks and eyes come to mind.
Who has got the contracts now?
Where were the WMD?
How about checking your own backyard?
Do you write for The Sun?

Only half a story in your long post and a rather biased half at that.
Oh! I nearly forgot we're helping Arafat out now.Should be good for a few contracts.

Frog

Simple comme bonjour.

ps: Kerry seems to be doing rather well in T2W poll,hopefully the natives of the US of A will have the same foresight.

Well I guss a small email on holiday won't harm...

I agree with you as that the report was indeed misguided....

Does one think that if US knew about any form impropriety, thet will not do anything....They will waste no time in discrrediting the UN and Kofi.....They are waiting just for that.

Also UN is run as an Organisation...not as a 'Kofi Shop'....as seems to be pointed out....

But what Bush and UK did was to take an 'Independent' and 'Illegal' action, on the gounds that they are right and therefore they have right to do anything, regardless of UN standing....They feel like taking action, and they took it...So how do they differ from the terrorists???

See some links below that give perhaps a clear picture...will add more sites here as and when...

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iraq1/2002/paper.htm
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/charges.htm
http://pilger.carlton.com/iraq/impact
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011203&s=cortright
http://www.geocities.com/iraqinfo/sanctions/sanctions.html

 

[LION63]

Perrington,

I accept most of what you said in your post especially the aims of a democrat. However, a conservative believes that the opportunities are out there for those that are willing to seek it regardless of their background. It is wrong to believe that all conservatives were given their status or wealth by virtue of birth, it is the case that the vast number had to strive hard for what they have; that is the reason we tend to find it hard to stomach when people seek something for nothing or begrudge us for what we have. Contrary to what some may believe, it is a hard slog from the bottom upwards but it is achievable and very rewarding. Why would we not oppose a tax and spend policy if we have made many sacrifices along the way? Why would we accept a policy of endless government subsidies when we have forgone pleasures and sacrificed the nicer things in order to attain our goals? It is fairly obvious that we would and should oppose redistribution of our hard earned wealth.

We are not all immoral, crooks, selfish or whatever else we tend to be called; we are just striving for a chance to enjoy the fruit of our labour and in the process standing up for what we believe in.

 

[Trader333]

Zambuck,

But what Bush and UK did was to take an 'Independent' and 'Illegal' action, on the gounds that they are right and therefore they have right to do anything, regardless of UN standing

The argument over this is all to do with "Interpretation" which is why the US and UK believed they had a mandate to take action and goes all the way back to 1991.

In 1991 Iraq agreed to a number of actions as part of an agreement to cease hostilities from the US led coalition and then did not honour the agreements. The US and UK viewed the breach as reason enough to take action against Iraq without having to get yet another UN resolution because the 1991 resolution was still standing.

So was the action illegal or otherwise ? Well I would guess it depends who decides on legality and we will no doubt see this argument for years to come. Deciding who was right or wrong is an entirely different issue but I am curious to know, if you think that is was all illegal, if the US and UK should now try and put Saddam back in charge ?


Paul

 

[Perrington]

LION63 You really want to make me cry for all those hard working tories hahaha

As I have mentioned previously, Iam not an impoverish man, so no hard feelings regarding wealth. However, if I may, there is a fundamentally rotten problem with our capitalist society, and this is influenced by the governments. Some people live a life of abject misery at the bottom end of the scale, they have limited opportunities due to local prejudice aswell as hereditary peers in the houses of lords making it difficult at the top end with legislation to maintain the poor souls misery ! thats one aspect of New Labour that has been positive with the changes in "old croney parliament" And this is not even taking into consideration third world standards of living. Bio Tech firms funding the republicans campaign whilst claiming they are solving third world problems by providing GM rice is laughable if it was not so disgusting. These people want more babies born so they can continue to maintain a market for their solutions !

I am not prepared to turn a blind eye to the suffering of other humans, even though It would be in my personal interest to have a tory policy ! This is because I care about other humans as people with feelings and desires regardless of their affluence or lack of it. This is the fundamental difference between the conservative and the democrats, and quite why many "humans" like myself can be vociferous in voicing opinions.

I have enough money to get by, Iam not suffering, so I say, lets do something to get the poor on the road to financial happiness, the tory says.......

 

[zambuck]

Zambuck,



The argument over this is all to do with "Interpretation" which is why the US and UK believed they had a mandate to take action and goes all the way back to 1991.

In 1991 Iraq agreed to a number of actions as part of an agreement to cease hostilities from the US led coalition and then did not honour the agreements. The US and UK viewed the breach as reason enough to take action against Iraq without having to get yet another UN resolution because the 1991 resolution was still standing.

So was the action illegal or otherwise ? Well I would guess it depends who decides on legality and we will no doubt see this argument for years to come. Deciding who was right or wrong is an entirely different issue but I am curious to know, if you think that is was all illegal, if the US and UK should now try and put Saddam back in charge ?


Paul

It's not entirely an interpretation by that way....the facts and details are there that shows how the goal posts were moved...

No I have not said that put Saddam back on charge....But then while it was convenient for US and West, he was kept in power....they did do dealings with him, although it was a very common knowledge amongst many that he was a tyrant....and I agree that he was a tyrant...

The point I am making is that there is no consistency in foreign policy of US or UK for that matter....If things are convenient, then it does not matter who is in power...it's only when they don't play ball with their demands, that they become 'a dictaor who must bne removed'

Yes iraq was forced to comply with UN sanctions....and which they did, but read the article on the first link in my message earier...the sanctions goal posts were moved and again moved by different resolutions by UK and US.....basically oil for money programme being handled by others was not acceptable to US so the reslutions after resolutions were added to the point that issue came toa head...As far as UN and other inspectors was concerned, the iraqs were playing ball with inspections and everything...

Instead of saddam US has put in place 'a leader' 'selected' by US anyway...!..Do you think US would allow an election that will be run entirely by iraqis..?

I suggest you read some of the links that puts some details to events before the war...!

 

[Trader333]

Zambuck,

I have followed this whole issue since 1991 and it wont change the fact that you have two nations who are arguing over interpretation against the rest of the UN, the fact that you personally see it differently (regardless of your links to facts), wont change anything. Also which nation set up the UN in the first place and history has shown time and again that it is conquering nations that decide the legality of actions. As I have said the issue of what is right or wrong is very different from the legality of what may have happened. Personally I do not think there was a case for war in Iraq but it is interesting to note that Libya ( a former supporter of terrorist networks) immediately changed its whole foreign policy as a direct result of the Iraq war and other nations are also following suit for the same reason.

I agree there is no consistency in foreign policy and there probably wont be in the future. This is down to perceived threats of the ruling governments at the time they are in office which is always relatively short lived in the Western Democracies.

It is easy for most of us in our armchairs to pontificate on what is wrong with almost every aspect of life but do nothing about it except moan. If you are that concerned about it then why not get involved directly in politics and try and change it ?


Paul

 

[zambuck]

Paul

Regardless of what your opinions are and what you think is the correct interpretation, alternative views will be there....does not make you right or anyone wrong..!!

You cite libya....but then you conveniently forgot pakistan, a dictator in charge, whose necluer scientist gave assistance to korea and libya, is in control of nuke and friend to US...so OK no problem here perhaps??

The nation in power are the ones who hold nuclear wapons anyway...and that is why they seek to control and assert influence....

US does not agree many things regarding china and russia...would US try the same as iraq with china or russia and force the issue...I don't think so because nose will get bloodied...

It is not neccesary to get involved in politics just to chage it....we can voice our disapproval of issues...and insist that there is a very consistant policy that is followed globally and not give in to political crap like 'we want to liberate the people of iraq' when statistics, history and actions show alternative scenario to the truth....and that is OIL...

 

[Trader333]

Zambuck,

I am largely in agreement with you and I know that the stance of "Liberating people in Iraq" was a convenient red herring especially when you consider that over 100,000 Iraq citizens have died since the conflict started. I am not too sure the whole emphasis was just about oil because if it were then why didnt the 1991 conflict result in the same situation as 2003 ? although I agree it plays a large factor. I would think that the whole Israel situation had a large influence on what has happened as well.

Also would the US do the same with China or Russia ? Well it nearly did in 1962 and there were people in both governments at the time who honestly believed that nuclear war was about to start.

I think that it is very much down to the rulers of the day and, fortunately, we have the ability to change them at election time. Although in the UK at present all you really have is Tory and not so Tory policies regardless of the political name. If you went back 20 years it was a very different picture and I am sure you can tell that my faith in politics is not particularly high. I still cant understand why politicians seem to think that we dont know what is really going on. The issue now is one of not getting caught out and even when they do they are only temporarily out of office (ie Mandelson).

It is hardly surprising that that the electorate has lost faith in politicians and that the biggest worry for all parties is no longer losing an election but one of people not even bothering to vote.


Paul

 

[counter_violent]

You've got to start somewhere. It makes sense to start with most evil of them all.

The start and finish point of this whole topic is " OIL " and who controls it. All other issues, politics, leaders, religion the list is endless , these are all sideshows.

 

[Noahedwinbeach2]

LION63 You really want to make me cry for all those hard working tories hahaha

As I have mentioned previously, Iam not an impoverish man, so no hard feelings regarding wealth. However, if I may, there is a fundamentally rotten problem with our capitalist society, and this is influenced by the governments. Some people live a life of abject misery at the bottom end of the scale, they have limited opportunities due to local prejudice aswell as hereditary peers in the houses of lords making it difficult at the top end with legislation to maintain the poor souls misery ! thats one aspect of New Labour that has been positive with the changes in "old croney parliament" And this is not even taking into consideration third world standards of living. Bio Tech firms funding the republicans campaign whilst claiming they are solving third world problems by providing GM rice is laughable if it was not so disgusting. These people want more babies born so they can continue to maintain a market for their solutions !

I am not prepared to turn a blind eye to the suffering of other humans, even though It would be in my personal interest to have a tory policy ! This is because I care about other humans as people with feelings and desires regardless of their affluence or lack of it. This is the fundamental difference between the conservative and the democrats, and quite why many "humans" like myself can be vociferous in voicing opinions.

I have enough money to get by, Iam not suffering, so I say, lets do something to get the poor on the road to financial happiness, the tory says.......

It really all depends on your definition of happiness. Many are unhappy even when they are not in poverty. My happiness lies with Jesus Christ and the hope I will be with him when I die. If I get rich in this world who cares. I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck right now with a baby and I work 70 hours a week. I am a conservative and I know what it takes to make it in this world. No one handed me anything. I applied myself and stuck with it. I work 70 hours a week not because I want to but because I have to. I REFUSE to live off the system. I do not want welfare checks coming in. A lot of these people find themselves in poverty because they can't stop having babies. If you can't afford to keep having several kids then you really don't need to have kids or learn birth control. Honestly if you are single or just live with someone with no kids it is easy to get by. You may not be able to make a killing or have a lot of material items but like me you will have food on the table and a place to live. I also have $25,000 in credit card debt which I am paying off. So I am in serious debt and still making it because I work my butt off. I do feel sorry for people in 3rd world countries who do not have the same opportunity as I do or Americans do. To be honest there should be no homeless people in America. I have noticed a lot of homeless really have given up on life and even when given the opportunity to work they do not want to. Why should they? They are eating and getting by on the streets without working. Unfortunately they have become used to that poor lifestyle and do not expect more or I guess want more. A lot of people that are poor realize to get out of the hole there in will require a lot and I mean a lot of work. I should know because I am in that hole. But I am not complaining. Instead I have asked God to help me by granting me wisdom and will power to strive forward. I do not bitch about my life and instead am very optimistic. I started studying to market and scrapping up cash here and there and I have managed to closely monitor my finances to a T. So I have some savings every month of about $400 and I am able to pay my bills. My goal is to eventually make it in the market through hard work and savings. It may take a while but I will never give up. That is the nice thing about this country. If you are willing to educate yourself you can become wealthy even starting with nothing. Most folks that get on welfare and start relying on the system never give off. They don't have a reason to. Why should they when they can be lazy and let the govt. take care of them. Instead of working to achieve something(and they can because I am doing that now) they rather have little job working part time or whatever and barely make it. I work 70 hours a week but if I worked 40 hours a week I couldn't pay my bills. Now I didn't go off and say..well I will just work 40 hours a week and rely on the govt. for the rest of it. No I said..I have to get a second job. And what do you know..i now have left over money to go to savings becuase of it. Yes I stay tired working 6 days a week but it will pay off one day and I will be able to tell people I was poor but got through it without the help of the system. That is the American dream. We have a society in America that allows us to do that. It is so easy for a lot of poor people to blame people and not blame themselves. Frankly 80% of the time it is usually there own fault for being in that situation. If they would do what I did by working more and applying themselves they can achieve there goals. On top of all this I am not educated. I can't get a real job making a good salary so I have to work so much to make up for that. I have one job paying $8 an hour and I work at Fedex making $10.56 an hour slinging boxes all night. So I know if I can do it anyone can do it. I know countries like Africa are in terrible shape. It is hard to help countries like that. It would be nice if everyone just gave the rest of there paychecks to help Africa and other countries but Americans just aren't going to do it. A lot of it is the fact we can't support these countries year after year after year. There is no business or trade going on so all these people are left without jobs or the possiblity of work. We can't just throw our money in there hoping they can do something productive with it. I don't think anyone has a solution for these poor countries. Our country has succeeded because the will of the people has been strong. Not to mention God is the countries center focus as a whole. I know I will get bashed for that. I beleive God through Jesus Christ has blessed this country greatly. I beleive he can turn Africa and other poor lands intro countries such as ours if the people will only trust in him. God provides hope and also wisdom through the Holly Spirit. That wisdom is what drives me to succeed and work hard day after day after day and never give up.

But to end all this..I would like to say even being broke like I am I am grateful I have food to eat and shelter and clothing. God has given me enough. It is always nice to have more but I will not lust for more when I should be content with what I have. If God gives me more then so be it. Hopefully he will grant me wisdom so I can help others in need. I like how Bush has given money to help small business startups. The conservatives know where to put the money. It isn't productive to support people. It is productive to help create jobs by providing seed money for small business startups. Then those businesses can turn around and hire people so the liberals can stop complaining about the jobless rate which happens to be almost the same as when Clinton was reelected.

 

[TWI]

The conservatives know where to put the money

They certainly do.

Expanding Halliburton probe confirms Bush administration is most corrupt in US history By Patrick Martin 30 October 2004 The FBI sought an interview with Bunnatine H. Greenhouse, a senior Army civil servant who objected to the KBR no-bid contract and complained that it represented preferential treatment. The Army gave KBR a secret $7 billion contract to restore Iraq’s oil fields just before Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/oct2004/hall-o30.shtml

 

[Perrington]

Noahedwinbeach2 Such an emotive statement, I feel you are ready to make the cross-over to voting democratic, but somehow you still support Bush. You just stick in mate and listen to what us guys are saying, and really study what we are saying. Most of us have been through the process of flirting with conservatism, then we gather our senses. This procedure can probably be measured by some sort of fibonacci retracement

You know, I'll tell you a little something about the jobless rate in the US. The government, whether it be Replicant or Democrat, consider FULL employment at between 94-95% of the population working. So therefore, 5 or 6% at any one time are virtually unable to find a job. Who are these 5 or 6 % likely to be ? Certainly not academics educated at Yale university thats for sure, so again, we have the working class exploited for supply and demand purposes.

This is why some people just give up on trying to make it in life, because they may aswell be banging their heads against a wall. They are kicked from one goverment program to another, without any financial reward and even less security. Purely out of complete desperation these people are the most likey of any person to "find" GOD, because their lives are so bloomin painful.... and unfortunately, not only does "Christian TV" exploit this, but so does the likes of King Crusade himself, yes thats right old gunslinger himself Mr Bush.

Do yourself a spiritual favour, Vote Democrat. You still have a day to "see the light"

 

[Roberto]

Expanding Halliburton probe confirms Bush administration is most corrupt in US history ...

Anyone who needed an official investigation to know this _really_ has their head in the sand Big Time, n'est-ce pas?

 

[Perrington]

Conservative voters do have their heads in the sand, thats why the completely obvious is stated here in order to emphatically prevail in this discussion.

 

[GotGold]

Don't care who gets in as long as it's not Bush.

 

[LION63]

Less than 24 hours to go and all we get is more mud slinging and stats relating to ball games, what a carry on, what an election campaign.... Do not worry chaps, you will have another go in 4 years time when Jeb is running.

 

[maxpain]

 

[Perrington]

I wonder which indicator is to be taken more seriously.

Edwards invited to the latest bilderberg gathering (Illuminti clue) or redskins losing on the weekend before the election (Astrology & Numerology) ?

In trading terms I would consider this a fib retracement along with a MA Resistance level.

Load up on Kerry !

 

[zambuck]

Less than 24 hours to go and all we get is more mud slinging and stats relating to ball games, what a carry on, what an election campaign.... Do not worry chaps, you will have another go in 4 years time when Jeb is running.

......planet of the apes a touch closer...???