Bush or Kerry?

Who would you vote for on November 2?

  • Bush

    Votes: 48 27.9%
  • Kerry

    Votes: 94 54.7%
  • Nader

    Votes: 8 4.7%
  • None of the above!

    Votes: 22 12.8%

  • Total voters
    172
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"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
 
Nipping out for a well earned Chicken Rogan, the Dow's done its dance for today :) Feet up & watch Question Time, Micheal Moore's on the panel, maybe an interesting show.
 
I am hoping that the Kerry supporters will tell us a few of the things he will change if he were to win the election (please talk about the things that affect the average Joe). Will he trim the deficit, protect American industry, improve retirement benefits or will he improve health care?

How will he accomplish any of the above? He might impose import tariffs, raise taxes on the middle classes, increase the retirement age. He has managed to avoid discussing the real issues and does not seem to have policies in these areas.
 
The Toronto Sun
There is deep concern abroad that American politics is falling increasingly under the influence of extreme religious groups at a time when secularism is accepted across Europe and non-Muslim Asia....Among 42,721 global respondents, Kerry leads Bush by 88% to 11%. In Brazil, Kerry leads by 91%; by 79% in Italy; 91% in France; 71% in India; 77% in Japan; 11% in Kuwait; 89% in Germany; 81% in Britain; 17% in Israel; 61% in Nigeria
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/10/24/682899.html
 
There is a long-term problem quite likely in the USA (yes another one).

Clinton had created a 250 billion surplus whilst in power, Bush comes along and turns that into a 450 billion debt....

Now the important observation here is, the average joe will think it was better under bush, because there were not many tax rises and yet money was getting spent. Thus creating another good old american illusion. Bush came into power and had a free lunch ticket, if he gets in again ?? will he turn 450 billion into 1.5 trillion ??? will this herald the great american stock market crash ? Its likely Kerry will be elected, and will be forced to act responsibly with the economy, which in effect means tax rises to clear the deficit. To the average joe or sally who does not understand economics, this is going to turn them away from democrats because all they ever see under democrats is tax rises etc (basically putting right what the republicans put wrong). You see thats the fundamental thing with these conservative maggots, they have enough money to survive through tough economic times, so they can be as irresponsible with the economy as they desire (they know the democrats will have to pick up the tab aswell) Its the ultimate puppet show. GOD BLESS AMERICA.
 
To quote a friend:
"When you hear the worlds superpower say that it is going to maintain "unchallengeable military superiority" combined with a policy of "pre emptive war" for those "against it", opt out of arms reduction treaties, start manufacturing new WMD that the superpower will attack other countries for developing.....As a world leader....that means only one thing....get the nukes for your own protection. That psychology is just so basic I don't see why everyone can't understand. This is the most misguided administration in US history, by an order of magnitude...maybe several. Ideologically driven, Armageddon obsessed criminals masquerading as politicians and directing the largest war machine ever assembled....and doing all of the things themselves that they are supposed to be fighting against. The "brains" of this administration are followers of Strauss....who was a lunatic....certainly with ideas not compatible with Democracy. That's the reality of what this is."

The one thing that amazes me at the moment is the farce that the US election is becoming with 10,000 lawyers already working on election related litigation. Europe is watching the fraud, scams and "lost" ballots with disbelief. As the BBC's Greg Palast noted the US election currently looking worse than the one in Zimbabwe. With all this going on how can people ever take as anything but a joke GW stated aim to bring "freedom and democracy" to the World? It is quite frankly embarrassing.
 
The problem is that surplus is like statistics it can be artificial. The surplus originated from a retirement fund that was displaced into gov's budget once Greenspan has asked for 100% social tax increase. This was denounced by a Congressman who asked the others why they all shut their mouth...

And it is this fake surplus that give to Bush the Money to commit his (criminal) war.


Perrington said:
There is a long-term problem quite likely in the USA (yes another one).

Clinton had created a 250 billion surplus whilst in power, Bush comes along and turns that into a 450 billion debt....
 
tradingknowledge said:
The problem is that surplus is like statistics it can be artificial. The surplus originated from a retirement fund that was displaced into gov's budget once Greenspan has asked for 100% social tax increase. This was denounced by a Congressman who asked the others why they all shut their mouth...

And it is this fake surplus that give to Bush the Money to commit his (criminal) war.

They shut their mouth in BOTH PARTIES and even VOTE BY HAND LIKE IN COMMUNIST RUSSIA SO THAT PEOPLE CAN'T KNOW see below Congressman Paul Ron's revelation on Patriot Act ! Why isn't it still denounced in mainstream medias and democrat party supposedly against Patriot Act ? It will never be as above because they play a comedy of opposition.

http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/hardin/congress_laws_unconstitutional.html

[Congressman Paul Ron] "the USA Patriot Act was not available to read or study before it was voted..

Congress Passes Unconstitutional Laws
by James A. Hardin
March 11, 2002

In an interview with Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX), The Beacon has uncovered at least one Congressman that admits that Congress sometimes passes unconstitutional laws. Furthermore, Congressmen know that these laws are unconstitutional at the time that the bills are passed. In addition, Rep. Paul revealed that laws are sometimes passed without the bills being available for reading and that often bills are passed on a "voice vote" (not a roll call vote) so that people back home will not know how a specific Congressman voted.

A recent example cited by Rep. Paul is the USA Patriot Act. This bill violates several constitutional protections and defines a "terrorist" as anyone who opposes a federal government program or policy. According to Rep. Paul, this means that a person who differs with the government on issues such as abortion, gun control laws, Free Trade Agreements, the United Nations, or any number of programs and activities could be defined as a terrorist and investigated by the government even though no crime is committed. The USA Patriot Act also gives the government the authority to establish a National ID Card for tracking and surveillance.

"I've heard many conservative Congressmen expressing disappointment in themselves for voting in favor of this bill now that the American people are beginning to realize that this is a bad bill", said Rep. Paul. Rep. Paul also stated that the USA Patriot Act was not available to read or study before it was voted on and passed.
 
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Just think if america conquered the world !!

We too could embrace the patriot act !

We too could buy a gun at any grocery store and shoot down whoever we like without a licence !

We too could watch jerry springer on 54 simultaneous channels 24 hrs a day !

Just an observation :)
 
Perrington said:
Just think if america conquered the world !!

We too could embrace the patriot act !

We too could buy a gun at any grocery store and shoot down whoever we like without a licence !

We too could watch jerry springer on 54 simultaneous channels 24 hrs a day !

Just an observation :)

No need a patriot act if citizens are already under control and unaware

From Tash's website journalist photograph

"Increasing numbers of journalists in the UK are being arrested by the police, missing their deadlines, then being released without charge. A clear abuse of police powers.
Police are increasingly using various legal devices and violence, to remove photographers from the scene of actions where the police feel they may be portrayed in a less flattering light!
Arrest on a spurious 'holding' charge, later to be released without charge, having missed deadline is a favourite one:

* Alan Lodge see the rest of my web-site for details: from Stonehenge, the Battle of the Beanfield resulting in civil case, Reclaim the streets, Operation Nomad and yet another civil case., and bloody onwards ...!

* Ben Gibson of the Observer: Arrested for obstruction at the `Battle of the Beanfield' near Stonehenge. Charges later dropped.

* David Hoffman freelancer: Frequently arrested (and assaulted) by the Metropolitan Police. Welling east London, Poll tax riots, Dockers/Reclaim the Streets etc), Has been awarded damages against them.

* John Warburton freelance on job for Daily Telegraph, working with New Age Travellers in the SW England. Arrested while covering traveller site evictions.

* Nick Cobbing freelancer: Arrested and removed from scene while trying to cover the eviction of environmental protesters at proposed site of Manchester Airport. Again at an Animal rights demo, Oxford, June 18th etc

* John Fraser Williams HTV producer: sustained two broken ribs after being truncheoned while reporting on the Manchester Airport

* Roddy Mansfield of `Undercurrents' recently arrested for the sixth time while recording events at a street party by the group `Reclaim the Streets' in Bristol. Again at an Animal rights demo, Oxford. Shell HQ protest, London

* Simon Chapman (photographer) Arrested after covering a protest against genetically modified crops at Totnes , Devon. Deadlines missed, later released without charge.

* Ben Edwards (i-Contact Video) Arrested after covering a protest against genetically modified crops at Totnes , Devon. Tapes seized at time, deadlines missed, later released without charge.

* Ursuala Wills Jones and Justin Cooke reporter and photographer working for the Big Issue Manchester, charged with aggravated trespass while covering demonstration at open cast mine/

* Paul Smith photographer protest at proposed site of Manchester Airport. Charges latter dropped.

* Campbell Thomas daily mail freelance. Bilderberg meeting, Scotland 1998. charges dropped.

* Martin Palmer video journo from portsmouth. Hillgrove Farm, anti-vivsection protest. Tapes seized and returned 6 months later no explanation or charge.

* Maggie Lambert mature student at Newport College, charged with conspiracy to trespass while photographing anti-motorway protest at Twyford Down.

* John Harris and Neil Plumb photographers charged with trespass under Aviation Security Act after arrest at demonstration against veal export at Coventry Airport, Charges later dropped, compensation awarded.

* Rob Todd photographer raided for photographs of hunt sabs, Police used improper warrant (ignoring police and criminal evidence procedure for journalist material). When challenged, they gave him a choice of giving them what they wanted, or having all his film and equipment seized. "
 
For Noahwhateverthfack I dug this article out just for you as it is another view from the Faithful. Maybe you can discuss it with your preacher. I doubt it will change the way you vote but maybe it will help open your eyes so you can begin to see that Bush is actually shafting you hard from behind.

Faith Abuse: When God Becomes A Campaign Ploy

October 27, 2004

This is my last column before Election Day. With less than a week to go, I plan on doing everything in my power to defeat George W. Bush (need a ride to the polls?). Then I'm going to get down on my knees and pray to a higher power.

As someone for whom faith is incredibly important, and who regularly prays for all the people and things that matter to me, I'm hopeful that God is as appalled as I am with the way His name is constantly being taken in vain on the Bush campaign trail, and with how the president is abusing his faith to justify to himself and to the world his disastrous policies.

Lord knows there's a very long list of things to be angry with Bush about, but this one has moved to the top of my personal hit parade because, as Catholic theologians teach us, "The corruption of the best is the worst." And George W. is truly corrupting faith and dragging it into the political gutter. In two fundamental ways:

First, he's using it as a spiritual inoculation against uncertainty and complexity.

Ron Suskind's recent piece in the New York Times Magazine painted a chilling portrait of a presidency in which thoughtful analysis and moral questioning have been replaced by "God-given" certainty, and where facts and open debate have become an anathema.

Suskind reveals a president who uses his faith to numb himself against reality. It anesthetizes him in the same way a stiff drink — OK, 20 stiff drinks — used to, and allows him to drown out the voices of doubt. Yet great thinkers throughout history have extolled the virtues of doubt. As Paul Tillich put it: "Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith."

But not in the Bush White House, where doubters are treated as traitors, and inconvenient facts are the work of the Devil — because facts can lead to questioning, and questioning undermines faith. And that would be blasphemy in an Oval Office where unbending resolve has become a holy sacrament. No wonder Bush is unwilling to admit to even a single mistake.

The second way the president is corrupting his faith is by using it as a marketing tool designed to garner support among the over 60 million Americans who identify themselves as evangelical — particularly the 4 million born-again voters who stayed home in 2000.

Nowhere is this blending of church and campaign more evident than in "George W. Bush: Faith in the White House," a DVD being distributed to tens of thousands of America's churches.

Although not officially the work of the Bush-Cheney campaign, it obviously has its approval, and indeed was screened at a party for Christian conservatives hosted by the campaign at the GOP convention in New York.

In the documentary, President Bush is presented as a man with "the moral clarity of an old-fashioned biblical prophet" — and is shown sharing a beatific split screen with the Son of God himself.

So, in 2004, Jesus is not only the president's favorite philosopher — he's his surrogate running mate. I'm surprised we haven't seen any "Bush-Christ 2004" bumper stickers yet. It would make for a heck of an October surprise.

All this pious posturing is also being used as a cudgel with which to attack John Kerry, portraying him as a sorry second in the faith sweepstakes.

Forget that Kerry carries a Bible and a rosary with him on the campaign trail, used to be an altar boy, and has said, "My faith affects everything that I do." The Bushies have made it seem as if they are running against Joe Pagan. Just check out the "Kerry: Wrong for Catholics" page on the official Bush-Cheney campaign Web site.

What's next? Attack ads from Altar Boys for Truth claiming Kerry never actually swallowed the body of Christ during communion?

What the president calls faith is actually nothing of the sort. It is fanaticism, pure and simple. The defining trait of the fanatic is an utter refusal to allow anything as piddling as evidence to get in the way of an unshakable belief.

This zealot's mindset is what allows President Bush to take in the death and destruction in Iraq and see them as "freedom on the march." And it's also what allows Abu Zarqawi and his followers to coldly put a bullet in the back of the head of four-dozen unarmed Iraqi Army recruits because they are "apostates."

"Either you're with us or you're against us" plainly cuts both ways.

"This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about al-Qaida and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy," explained Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy advisor to Reagan and Bush 41. "He understands them because he's just like them."

I pray that every American of real faith keeps this in mind when stepping into the voting booth on Election Day.
 
Bad tongues say that the party who is invited at Bilderberg is the winner.

Well it has been the case of Tony Blair and this year it was Edwards from Kerry's Party
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040606-103603-4126r.htm

U.S. Sen. John Edwards at Bilderberg

Milan, Italy, Jun. 6 (UPI) -- Among the 100 or so invitees to the annual Bilderberg conference under way Sunday in a northern Italy resort is potential U.S. vice president John Edwards.

Reporters generally are not invited and those who are observe the conference group's general pledge of secrecy, reinforcing the view of conspiracy theorists that the elite gathering is up to no good, London's The Guardian newspaper reported.

Sen. Edwards is regarded in Democratic circles as a good performer in his battle with Sen. John Kerry for the nomination to be presidential candidate and so is expected to be a finalist when Kerry chooses a running mate.

Other invitees are Mrs. Bill Gates and likely are regulars Bill Clinton, Henry Kissinger and U.S. Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld.

The Bilderberg tradition began in 1954 as a transatlantic post-war sounding board.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3773019.stm

Bilderberg: The ultimate conspiracy theory
By Jonathan Duffy
BBC News Online Magazine

The Bilderberg group, an elite coterie of Western thinkers and power-brokers, has been accused of fixing the fate of the world behind closed doors. As the organisation marks its 50th anniversary, rumours are more rife than ever.

Given its reputation as perhaps the most powerful organisation in the world, the Bilderberg group doesn't go a bundle on its switchboard operations.

Telephone inquiries are met with an impersonal female voice - the Dutch equivalent of the BT Callminder woman - reciting back the number and inviting callers to "leave a message after the tone".

Anyone who accidentally dialled the number would probably think they had stumbled on just another residential answer machine.

Leiden
Leiden in Holland, the inauspicious base of the Bilderberg group
But behind this ultra-modest façade lies one of the most controversial and hotly-debated alliances of our times.

On Thursday the Bilderberg group marks its 50th anniversary with the start of its yearly meeting.

For four days some of the West's chief political movers, business leaders, bankers, industrialists and strategic thinkers will hunker down in a five-star hotel in northern Italy to talk about global issues.

What sets Bilderberg apart from other high-powered get-togethers, such as the annual World Economic Forum (WEF), is its mystique.

Not a word of what is said at Bilderberg meetings can be breathed outside. No reporters are invited in and while confidential minutes of meetings are taken, names are not noted.

The shadowy aura extends further - the anonymous answerphone message, for example; the fact that conference venues are kept secret. The group, which includes luminaries such as Henry Kissinger and former UK chancellor Kenneth Clarke, does not even have a website.


DISCREET AND ELITE
This year Bilderberg has announced a list of attendees
They include BP chief John Browne, US Senator John Edwards, World Bank president James Wolfensohn and Mrs Bill Gates

In the void created by such aloofness, an extraordinary conspiracy theory has grown up around the group that alleges the fate of the world is largely decided by Bilderberg.

In Yugoslavia, leading Serbs have blamed Bilderberg for triggering the war which led to the downfall of Slobodan Milosevic. The Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, the London nail-bomber David Copeland and Osama Bin Laden are all said to have bought into the theory that Bilderberg pulls the strings with which national governments dance.

And while hardline right-wingers and libertarians accuse Bilderberg of being a liberal Zionist plot, leftists such as activist Tony Gosling are equally critical.

A former journalist, Mr Gosling runs a campaign against the group from his home in Bristol, UK.

"My main problem is the secrecy. When so many people with so much power get together in one place I think we are owed an explanation of what is going on.

Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma bomber, is led away from court
Timothy McVeigh was among those who believed the conspiracy theory
Mr Gosling seizes on a quote from Will Hutton, the British economist and a former Bilderberg delegate, who likened it to the annual WEF gathering where "the consensus established is the backdrop against which policy is made worldwide".

"One of the first places I heard about the determination of US forces to attack Iraq was from leaks that came out of the 2002 Bilderberg meeting," says Mr Gosling.

But "privacy, rather than secrecy", is key to such a meeting says Financial Times journalist Martin Wolf, who has been invited several times in a non-reporting role.

"The idea that such meetings cannot be held in private is fundamentally totalitarian," he says. "It's not an executive body; no decisions are taken there."

As an up-and-coming statesmen in the 1950s, Denis Healey, who went on to become a Labour chancellor, was one of the four founding members of Bilderberg (which was named after the hotel in Holland where the first meeting was held in 1954).

Crowds gather in Davos
The alternative - the WEF welcomes journalists
His response to claims that Bilderberg exerts a shadowy hand on the global tiller is met with characteristic bluntness. "Crap!"

"There's absolutely nothing in it. We never sought to reach a consensus on the big issues at Bilderberg. It's simply a place for discussion," says Lord Healey.

Formed in the spirit of post-war trans-Atlantic co-operation, the idea behind Bilderberg was that future wars could be prevented by bringing power-brokers together in an informal setting away from prying eyes.

"Bilderberg is the most useful international group I ever attended. The confidentiality enabled people to speak honestly without fear of repercussions.

"In my experience the most useful meetings are those when one is free to speak openly and honestly. It's not unusual at all. Cabinet meetings in all countries are held behind closed doors and the minutes are not published."

That activists have seized on Bilderberg is no surprise to Alasdair Spark, an expert in conspiracy theories.

"The idea that a shadowy clique is running the world is nothing new. For hundreds of years people have believed the world is governed by a cabal of Jews.

"Shouldn't we expect that the rich and powerful organise things in their own interests. It's called capitalism."
 
Oh my God, this must be some kind of campaign to try and save some dignity and respectability in the bush family. How low can it go is the question ? A little voice in my head says, there are unlimited depths !
 
Some of you are making Kerry sound like some kind of saviour.

I am very happy for Bush to win, so that he can continue the battle against Islamic terrorism; a war in which one of my relatives died when killing the Pakistani State Terror backed muslim fanatics in Kashmir, India.

In my opinion, Kerry will be a soft touch. The world needs a strong leader, even if he is an imbecile on most things. So yes, Bush is an imbecile and can hardly put together a coherent sentence, but at least he is doing the right thing by hunting and killing the fanatical muslim terrorists with whom there can be no negotiation.
 
Looking at the website further confirms the Bush familly freakdom :eek:
 
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