Brexit - in or out

[mike.]

It's not undying love - just that I think the pros outweigh the cons

Many of the pro's will still remain pre-brexit...Many of what you think now are con's will gradually unfold themselves not to be, One has to look forward with optimism and make it work.

How many of the big companies for example microsoft, apple etc knew with certainty they would be so successful from the outset ? They had a vision, took a risk and worked extremely hard to get where they are now.....same applies

 

[forker]

these people must be living on a different planet or went to special schools

lan Johnson, chair of Labour In for Britain, told the Today programme that Brexit would make the immigration situation worse


"The argument we’re making is, look, there’s three types of immigration: there’s immigration from outside the EU, there’s illegal immigration, and there’s free movement. Of those, free movement gives us the benefit of the single market.

Our argument is remaining part of the single market helps us to control the other two forms of immigration. If we leave, the situation is going to be worse. We won’t be protected by the Dublin Accord. If anyone believes that our UK border in Calais is going to survive us leaving the EU then once again they’re in the realms of fantasy. Of course it won’t, that will make the issue much worse."

:clap::clap::clap::clap: give this man a hand. He has showed us all how stupid he really is.

 

[tokyojoe]

Like I said Atilla, dare I suggest a change of mindset. Most of us here have had a family member or friend connected with the NHS, nurses from overseas have been commonplace in the UK for a very long time, nothing wrong with that, but we need to remember the fact that for far too long consecutive governments had allowed a benefits system to become more profitable than becoming a nurse if the claimant was clued up enough to play the system.

Thankfully this has halted somewhat over the last couple of years, ol dave has had his moments. But I honestly think it starts with the mindset, for one, teenage pregnancies are down for the first time in years, why....because among other things it is becoming much harder to take the tried & tested route

& we all know what that is.

 

[Pat494]

It's going to be tough either way imho

 

[barjon]

these people must be living on a different planet or went to special schools

lan Johnson, chair of Labour In for Britain, told the Today programme that Brexit would make the immigration situation worse


"The argument we’re making is, look, there’s three types of immigration: there’s immigration from outside the EU, there’s illegal immigration, and there’s free movement. Of those, free movement gives us the benefit of the single market.

Our argument is remaining part of the single market helps us to control the other two forms of immigration. If we leave, the situation is going to be worse. We won’t be protected by the Dublin Accord. If anyone believes that our UK border in Calais is going to survive us leaving the EU then once again they’re in the realms of fantasy. Of course it won’t, that will make the issue much worse."

:clap::clap::clap::clap: give this man a hand. He has showed us all how stupid he really is.

He may be stupid, but he's dead right except that it's doubtful that Brexit would make the situation worse. It certainly won't resolve the problem though.

 

[mike.]

This nurse training idea is already in place and my wife before she made the mistake of marrying me was training to become a nurse up in Newcastle Upon-Tyne, Victoria Infirmary.

She sadly/wisely gave up the early start with long hours and training for poor money, choosing to become a lady of leisure.

I think you'll find the nurses on these training courses are usually migrants too. They come over here, do the long hours and training for a while and then the smart and bright ones soon after they qualify leave for the USA where pay is considerably more.


Question you have to ask is how much does one have to increase pay to raise nursing numbers to get the endogenous pops to the migrant donks work?

Talk is cheap so they say. Ain't that the truth.

In various hospitals the shortfall is often created by nurses leaving full time employment to join nursing agencies where the pay can be up 3 times more for the same work.

But its a weak argument at best, Do you honestly think its worth holding the prosperity of the whole of the UK and its economy back because a couple of hospitals do not have that extra 2 or 3 migrant nurses they need ?... They only make up 11% as it is....

 

[barjon]

Many of the pro's will still remain pre-brexit...Many of what you think now are con's will gradually unfold themselves not to be, One has to look forward with optimism and make it work.

How many of the big companies for example microsoft, apple etc knew with certainty they would be so successful from the outset ? They had a vision, took a risk and worked extremely hard to get where they are now.....same applies

I was thinking of the pros and cons of being in the EU. Some of those pros might (might bring the operative word) remain after Brexit but they are certainly pros being in.

We are already a successful country - albeit that we might be living a bit on past glories - but our influence and trade in the world has steadily diminished and I think we are better placed as part of a larger group where we should be a respected influence rather than moaning Minnie's.

 

[counter_violent]

I was thinking of the pros and cons of being in the EU. Some of those pros might (might bring the operative word) remain after Brexit but they are certainly pros being in.

We are already a successful country - albeit that we might be living a bit on past glories - but our influence and trade in the world has steadily diminished and I think we are better placed as part of a larger group where we should be a respected influence rather than moaning Minnie's.

Trade and influence hasn't diminished in the world.
We are the 5th largest economy outright. We used to vie with France for this spot but they have fallen by the wayside and will soon be overtaken by India.
We, on the other hand, have managed to significantly close the gap on Germany, despite the fact that we do less business yr on yr within the EU. The EU as a whole does less business yr on yr in terms of global gdp.

My explanation is that we must be doing more business globally.

What is your explanation?

 

[forker]

Germany's 10-year bond yield just went negative for the first time ever

 

[barjon]

Trade and influence hasn't diminished in the world.
We are the 5th largest economy outright. We used to vie with France for this spot but they have fallen by the wayside and will soon be overtaken by India.
We, on the other hand, have managed to significantly close the gap on Germany, despite the fact that we do less business yr on yr within the EU. The EU as a whole does less business yr on yr in terms of global gdp.

My explanation is that we must be doing more business globally.

What is your explanation?

I beg your pardon! Up to the late fifties Britain produced about 20% of the worlds manufactured goods. What is the percentage now?

Our economy relies a lot on finance, but one man with a computer produces as much as 500 men did in manufacturing. That's the way wealth used to get passed down (albeit most is always kept at the top).

 

[counter_violent]

I beg your pardon! Up to the late fifties Britain produced about 20% of the worlds manufactured goods. What is the percentage now?

Pardon granted.

It doesn't matter what we did in the 50's but it does matter what we do now.

We, have moved away from manufacturing, as have ALL developed economies.
China is in the process of rebalancing it's own economy away from pure manufacturing and export.

Our economy relies a lot on finance, but one man with a computer produces as much as 500 men did in manufacturing. That's the way wealth used to get passed down (albeit most is always kept at the top).

Staying in the EU will not help our economy one bit. The EU is going backwards and we don't need any part of that thank you very much.
It's a global business world now and we need to be an influential part of it.
The EU idea is at least 20 yrs out of date.
As for passing wealth down, there needs to be global agreement in terms of tax take, as the way things stand currently, big corp and shareholders mop up whilst average Joe lives just above the breadline.

 

[barjon]

Staying in the EU will not help our economy one bit. The EU is going backwards and we don't need any part of that thank you very much.
It's a global business world now and we need to be an influential part of it.
The EU idea is at least 20 yrs out of date.
As for passing wealth down, there needs to be global agreement in terms of tax take, as the way things stand currently, big corp and shareholders mop up whilst average Joe lives just above the breadline.

Nor will it hinder it.

Globalisation brings with much more of the joint venture type stuff - like the Airbus industrie - where being part of a bigger block is advantageous imo.

 

[Atilla]

In various hospitals the shortfall is often created by nurses leaving full time employment to join nursing agencies where the pay can be up 3 times more for the same work.

But its a weak argument at best, Do you honestly think its worth holding the prosperity of the whole of the UK and its economy back because a couple of hospitals do not have that extra 2 or 3 migrant nurses they need ?... They only make up 11% as it is....

Why do they have to pay 3 x more?

It is not a weak argument but a very real one. The same experience is to be had in engineering, steel welding, farming and just as many other low paid service jobs including cleaning.

LDCs usually complain the West take the best trained and youngest workers because they can't match the salaries.


What a world we live in? :whistling

 

[mike.]

Why do they have to pay 3 x more?

Dunno...its just fact, I dont scaremonger like the remain camp..



Agency rates...

http://www.ambition24hours.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=27


NHS rates...
https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2015-16

 

[neil]

Just passing through

And what a sorry state of affairs it is that we rely on EU to staff our hospitals.

Dare I suggest a complete change of mindset & get back to training our own workforce to staff the NHS.

Too radical eh !

There is way too much flannel & not enough accepting of the cold hard facts by the blind faith, the blind always stay blind.

Excellent point -import already trained engineering persons such as welders, heating engineers, plumbers etc then the UK doesn't have to fund apprenticeships for UK young people. And ignore the fact that other countries are being depleted of trained personnel. Like wise nurses,engineers and doctors . Training places for nurses etc as with available apprenticeships have been scaled back because it is cheaper to import the already trained than train UK people. The idea of free movement is good but employers/governments also see it as a cheap way to acquire trained personnel. Our gain is some one elses loss of plumber, doctor, welder, pipe fitter, heating engineer and nurse etc.

https://www.google.co.uk/?ion=1&espv=2#q=lack of apprenticeships uk

 

[Atilla]

Excellent point -import already trained engineering persons such as welders, heating engineers, plumbers etc then the UK doesn't have to fund apprenticeships for UK young people. And ignore the fact that other countries are being depleted of trained personnel. Like wise nurses,engineers and doctors . Training places for nurses etc as with available apprenticeships have been scaled back because it is cheaper to import the already trained than train UK people. The idea of free movement is good but employers/governments also see it as a cheap way to acquire trained personnel. Our gain is some one elses loss of plumber, doctor, welder, pipe fitter, heating engineer and nurse etc.

https://www.google.co.uk/?ion=1&espv=2#q=lack of apprenticeships uk

True, but as always the other side of the coin is we have a finite pool of resources money available to spend.

Spending more on apprentice training means spending less on other things.

How will this be achieved and who will pay? I'm guessing we'll have teh £350m a week to do this. Alternatively, we have lottery funding?

Yep both lies. Ideas good and I support it.

Transaction tax on investment banks might be an idea :cheesy:

 

[barjon]

Excellent point -import already trained engineering persons such as welders, heating engineers, plumbers etc then the UK doesn't have to fund apprenticeships for UK young people. And ignore the fact that other countries are being depleted of trained personnel. Like wise nurses,engineers and doctors . Training places for nurses etc as with available apprenticeships have been scaled back because it is cheaper to import the already trained than train UK people. The idea of free movement is good but employers/governments also see it as a cheap way to acquire trained personnel. Our gain is some one elses loss of plumber, doctor, welder, pipe fitter, heating engineer and nurse etc.

https://www.google.co.uk/?ion=1&espv=2#q=lack of apprenticeships uk

That all might be good if it was valid. A pal of mine is a trustee at our local hospital and tells me of the several schemes they have tried to get young people trained as nurses. The problem is not that they won't train them but that can't get enough people to come and be trained.

It maybe tempting to think that employers and government see free movement as a cheap way to acquire trained personnel, but I'm not sure that's the case. In any case it's up to our government to provide the right stimulus and it's not the EU's fault if they choose not to do so.

 

[Atilla]

That all might be good if it was valid. A pal of mine is a trustee at our local hospital and tells me of the several schemes they have tried to get young people trained as nurses. The problem is not that they won't train them but that can't get enough people to come and be trained.

It maybe tempting to think that employers and government see free movement as a cheap way to acquire trained personnel, but I'm not sure that's the case. In any case it's up to our government to provide the right stimulus and it's not the EU's fault if they choose not to do so.

I think the only way to induce people is to raise wages and reward. This is the market solution.

Sadly it takes more money to induce some people than others. Whilst one person may not be asked to move 10m daily, another will travell 10,000 miles and do 100m a day to get to work.

This is where the factors of production with Land, Labour and Capital come in. Resources will move to where their advantage is greatest.

Restricting use of land and free movement of labour leaves only capital available. But then when we have disequilibrium in one market it will lead to inefficiencies in the other.

These differences will tell over time as those better organised and managed countries in due course will pull ahead.


I still find it hillarious the tories talking about raising wages and even the minimum wage.

I find it remarkable most are ready to accept these assertions and offerings without a wet finger in the air moment to hazard a guess if they are remotely deliverable. :idea:

 

[Dinos]

I wonder how the rest of the EU will react, if we vote Brexit, survive and prosper without them, will they follow us to the doors and wave goodbye to the EU experiment, we shall see.

If any of you guys haven't voted on the EU poll, in the genral chat, you have 2 days left guys.

 

[counter_violent]

There is already a poll for this on T2W and having another which is what you are suggesting is pointless and not needed.

Ah, i'm glad you are here.

What's the verdict squire....or are you saving it?