Brexit - in or out

[counter_violent]

Bit of wishful thinking maybe

Bookies still strongly for remain 1/3 and plenty offering 2/7 whilst leave stays broadly at 5/2.

No I'm convinced that demographics is in play. Get the right combination of influential group think and it's game over

 

[barjon]

No I'm convinced that demographics is in play. Get the right combination of influential group think and it's game over

You've got to shift those whose heart drives their opinion over the 'phone but whose head rules in the polling booth.

 

[Signalcalc]

Respect your view but the EU was put in place to ensure that the wars between European powers stopped and such a waste of life didn't happen again. If for no other reason I want to stay.

The political union didn't really start until the Maastricht treaty in the early 90s before that it was just a happy trading block. By the early 90s most of Europe had already been at peace for 50 years with only age old ethnic troubles resurfacing in BH, Serbia and Kosovo, and the union wasn't really setup to prevent further European wars.

I maintain that socialist ideals have driven the formation of the EU which is borne out considering that most of the unelected leadership are former communists.

Distribution of wealth from successful European countries to basket case eastern countries and some Mediterranean countries run by corrupt governments has always been the game.

So in effect our success is now our downfall. The trouble is that people's memories of the past troubles and successes are diminished with the older generation dying out, the younger generation has no real concept of the struggles of the last 70 years of success and can't really see a problem with the erosion of our successes by the union taking our money and jobs and distributing it to those who have not sacrificed and managed to work hard enough for success mostly as a result of greedy political leaderships in those basket case countries.

It is not by accident that we as a nation are successful after 100's of years of finding a way for humans to coexist in relative peace through democracy and probably the best leadership model we have found yet. We did that without Europe.

Why do we want to water down our once great leadership, that has set an example for the rest of the world to follow for us only to become homogenised into the rest of basket case Europe. No way can the EU be an example for the rest of the world to follow, without democracy there can be no democracy!!

Not for me if we can't still make it without a socialist Union.

 

[Signalcalc]

A lot of people have died for their country. The UK is not free from getting mixed up in wars and has had her share of politicians at the top who have sacrificed British lives to further their own ends.

I'm not going to knock Tony Blair's reasons, but I believe that he deceived the British over "Weapons of Mass Destruction" that Iraq never had. The result has not become apparent, yet. So you can go ahead with your view that you will, always, be able to make your own laws.

I say that the benefits of Brexit are unproved. It's a big step that you are taking and I, sincerely, wish you the best of luck. They do say that "Fortune favours the brave". Now is one time to prove it. I do hope that there will be a massive turnout---not the 40% that we see at elections.

We are part of NATO we will always be involved in 'peacekeeping' in any corner of the planet.

Iraq (and most likely Afghan) are prime examples of political spin, gut feeling is that the remain campaign is also just political spin, but at least this time we can have a vote in the matter.

 

[barjon]

The political union didn't really start until the Maastricht treaty in the early 90s before that it was just a happy trading block. By the early 90s most of Europe had already been at peace for 50 years with only age old ethnic troubles resurfacing in BH, Serbia and Kosovo, and the union wasn't really setup to prevent further European wars.

I maintain that socialist ideals have driven the formation of the EU which is borne out considering that most of the unelected leadership are former communists.

Distribution of wealth from successful European countries to basket case eastern countries and some Mediterranean countries run by corrupt governments has always been the game.

So in effect our success is now our downfall. The trouble is that people's memories of the past troubles and successes are diminished with the older generation dying out, the younger generation has no real concept of the struggles of the last 70 years of success and can't really see a problem with the erosion of our successes by the union taking our money and jobs and distributing it to those who have not sacrificed and managed to work hard enough for success mostly as a result of greedy political leaderships in those basket case countries.

It is not by accident that we as a nation are successful after 100's of years of finding a way for humans to coexist in relative peace through democracy and probably the best leadership model we have found yet. We did that without Europe.

Why do we want to water down our once great leadership, that has set an example for the rest of the world to follow for us only to become homogenised into the rest of basket case Europe. No way can the EU be an example for the rest of the world to follow, without democracy there can be no democracy!!

Not for me if we can't still make it without a socialist Union.

50 years is nothing when we've been fighting each other for centuries.

I don't agree that EU has held us back. I remember Harold McMillan pm describing his job as managing Great Britain's decline. We were the sick man of Europe if you recall. Maggie then destroyed what was left of our manufacturing base that had been the steam behind our inventiveness etc.

 

[Signalcalc]

50 years is nothing when we've been fighting each other for centuries.

I don't agree that EU has held us back. I remember Harold McMillan pm describing his job as managing Great Britain's decline. We were the sick man of Europe if you recall. Maggie then destroyed what was left of our manufacturing base that had been the steam behind our inventiveness etc.

I don't disagree with any of that [emoji4]

And I didn't disagree with a happy trading block, nor do I disagree with legislation that should be offered to us with a choice to decide if we want to adopt it or not by politicians we as a group of people have elected.

I disagree with enforced political integration by unelected leaders with enforced laws and regulation. I disagree with loss of control over our own destiny, I disagree with the removal or erosion of democracy, something that we have fought and died for for centuries, for it be swept away by stealth....until now.....hopefully.

I'm happy that we have a choice to make, that is democracy provided by our currently elected governement and ironically something that may not have been offered to us by a more left wing government and something that certainly wouldn't have been offered by the undemocratic EU.

Oh the ironies. I'll get out my ironing board. [emoji482]

 

[Signalcalc]

Seems the vote rigging has started, the call for an extension to the deadline. Can't recall this ever happening for a general election and it's very fishy that the website happens to crash with an hour left until the deadline, it's almost as if it was planned [emoji849]

 

[mike.]

I heard on radio 4 this morning a family supposidly on the fence, the outcome after a small debate was to vote out because they like farage better than Cameron...strange way to decide your future..furthermore, I'm failing to see where this growth in the economy is Cameron keeps banging on about. Steel industry on its knees, BHS gone, many more companies struggling

 

[Splitlink]

We are part of NATO we will always be involved in 'peacekeeping' in any corner of the planet.

Iraq (and most likely Afghan) are prime examples of political spin, gut feeling is that the remain campaign is also just political spin, but at least this time we can have a vote in the matter.

The truth is that it is all political spin. All nations are in the hands of the governing party. Even as I write this, the registration date is being interfered with. That will leave less time to check names, etc. before the referendum and is illegal.

 

[Signalcalc]

The truth is that it is all political spin. All nations are in the hands of the governing party. Even as I write this, the registration date is being interfered with. That will leave less time to check names, etc. before the referendum and is illegal.

The website crashing is so suspicious, it's almost as if the govt have bought themselves another 2 days of campaigning to get an age demographic to vote because they realised they don't have enough young voters. It's very easy to crash your own website by restricting the numbers allowed to connect, a kind of self denial of service attack and then publish a media report stating that a certain high amount of people were all online within the last 2 hours of registration.

I mean who would wait until 10 o'clock at night to register on the last day - apparently hundreds of thousands ! Do me a favour.

Desperate govt in desperate times.

 

[counter_violent]

50 years is nothing when we've been fighting each other for centuries.

I don't agree that EU has held us back. I remember Harold McMillan pm describing his job as managing Great Britain's decline. We were the sick man of Europe if you recall. Maggie then destroyed what was left of our manufacturing base that had been the steam behind our inventiveness etc.

Oh Christ, we are back to this.

It was Wilson who was blabbing on about the white heat technical revolution, but he bailed out when he saw just how difficult a job it was to get people to change and he had no conviction to carry out that modernisation, as it would have meant fewer jobs in traditional industries and huge investment in new tec.

The problem is very simple. Investors will not invest in propping up inefficient backward looking industries just to preserve jobs. There is no benefit, just a decline yr on yr.

You could quite easily draw the same conclusions today about the EU. Inward looking, protectionist nonsense, whose only growth comes from enlargement and money printing. Strip that out and I can assure you they are going backwards.

The UK's relatively better standing only come about because Maggie had the vision and the balls to drag the UK out of it's malaise. Not because we joined the EU. Our share of trade with EU countries has fallen from about 60% in the 50's down to around 44% today. This includes the period where we joined up to the single market. The trend has been down for 60+ yrs and shows no signs of changing.

This is what we used to make in the 70's ffs

 

[barjon]

Oh Christ, we are back to this.

It was Wilson who was blabbing on about the white heat technical revolution, but he bailed out when he saw just how difficult a job it was to get people to change and he had no conviction to carry out that modernisation, as it would have meant fewer jobs in traditional industries and huge investment in new tec.

The problem is very simple. Investors will not invest in propping up inefficient backward looking industries just to preserve jobs. There is no benefit, just a decline yr on yr.

You could quite easily draw the same conclusions today about the EU. Inward looking, protectionist nonsense, whose only growth comes from enlargement and money printing. Strip that out and I can assure you they are going backwards.

The UK's relatively better standing only come about because Maggie had the vision and the balls to drag the UK out of it's malaise. Not because we joined the EU. Our share of trade with EU countries has fallen from about 60% in the 50's down to around 44% today. This includes the period where we joined up to the single market. The trend has been down for 60+ yrs and shows no signs of changing.

This is what we used to make in the 70's ffs

Yes, Maggie (with all the North Sea oil money behind her) rightly stopped propping up dying industries, but failed to invest in future industry. She preferred instead to rely on the financial sector to make the money. Worked a treat except the wealth doesn't spread down very far. Then, of course, the banks etc started going ott so little option but to rein them in.

Thanks to our membership there were a good few foreign companies prepared to set up here (their gateway to Europe and all that) and they have turned the 70s rubbish you point to into a strong product. Would they have come without us in EU? I doubt it. Will they stay if we come out? Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

[counter_violent]

Yes, Maggie (with all the North Sea oil money behind her) rightly stopped propping up dying industries, but failed to invest in future industry. She preferred instead to rely on the financial sector to make the money. Worked a treat except the wealth doesn't spread down very far. Then, of course, the banks etc started going ott so little option but to rein them in.

Thanks to our membership there were a good few foreign companies prepared to set up here (their gateway to Europe and all that) and they have turned the 70s rubbish you point to into a strong product. Would they have come without us in EU? I doubt it. Will they stay if we come out? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Manufacturing as a share of gdp is declining amongst ALL developed countries. Long term trends. This is perfectly understandable btw and we have seen many times that manufacturing production takes places where lowest cost can be obtained. As each of these countries or regions then become more wealthy and develop a middle class, then manufacturing and production moves on and out.

Manufacturing is a race to the bottom.

Knowledge based and value added service industries is a race to the top.

The only manufacturing we would want to be involved in is high end, added value. All else is a step backwards.

 

[barjon]

.........The only manufacturing we would want to be involved in is high end, added value. All else is a step backwards.........

Exactly. And Maggie missed the trick in setting us up for that.

 

[counter_violent]

Rob Hayward, analyst, who all but correctly predicted the Tory general election victory has been at his stats again. Although he is in the remain camp, his research is telling him that a brexit is almost certain. There may be an announcement on the way.

Politics has become a lot more interesting since the start of this current depression.

Here we go.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbctwo

 

[counter_violent]

Exactly. And Maggie missed the trick in setting us up for that.

No. She did sorted the country out and made it a desirable place to do business. It is not the job of government to provide everyone with jobs. All they can do is set the scene. That is why we out perform now compared to the rest of the EU. The EU point blank refuse to reform.

Our association with the failed EU project puts a drag on our ability to do trade with the rest of the world. We are in a period of globalisation. We are not allowed to trade with the expanding parts of the world because of our EU association.

All this nonsense being bandied about how we need to be part of a bigger trading /negotiating block.

As usual, the majority have their thinking all completely ass about face.

 

[Atilla]

No. She did sorted the country out and made it a desirable place to do business. It is not the job of government to provide everyone with jobs. All they can do is set the scene. That is why we out perform now compared to the rest of the EU. The EU point blank refuse to reform.
You are very wrong here I'm afraid to say dear CV. I implore you to carry out some objective reading and research on every country deem to be successful in any industry and you will find ample evidence of a BIG government hand in its success.

http://joeblakey.com/geography/the-asian-tigers/

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-resea...ment-intervention-and-the-east-asian-miracle/

http://www.iun.edu/~hisdcl/h207_2002/jecontakeoff.htm

Look at Japan. Taiwan. S.Korea. Look at the Samsungs and LG and even US defence industries with the money and contracts they get from government.

The Germans protect their industries. UK sells them to the highest bidder.

Your beloved Thatcher hired yankee consultants and picked their ideals over British ones.


Our association with the failed EU project puts a drag on our ability to do trade with the rest of the world. We are in a period of globalisation. We are not allowed to trade with the expanding parts of the world because of our EU association.

This is absolute rubbish touted by Brexit campaign. UK can trade with any country it wants and does so. EU doesn't stop any of it.

Basically, if you are China and you want to trade with the UK or vice-er-versa you do. Instead of picking up 28 different rule books one picks up just one rule book and enters international trade subject to that rule book.

Please provide an example where EU stops UK from trading with any country it wants?


All this nonsense being bandied about how we need to be part of a bigger trading /negotiating block.

As usual, the majority have their thinking all completely ass about face.

Clear strategy and block power in defending our industries and having a bigger market place is highly significant.

One perfect example is Boeing and Airbus. No country can take on Boeing by it self. EU has managed to with the Airbus consortium.

If one imagines the amount of parts, services and effort that goes into making an aeroplane than the number of jobs are absolutely tremendous.

No private industry can do this as barriers to entry and costs coupled with risks simply too high. Same goes for Eurofighter, space program and the many other joint projects.


Brexiters saying things will stay the same are hypo-wishing. No way will they remain the same!!!

 

[Oscar Reed]

The betting market still giving Trump a higher chance of becoming president than the UK leaving the EU.

 

[Atilla]

It is a widely known fact that whilst UK leads weapons technology, it is very poor at translating this to consumer products.

Thatcher sold national assets to pay for PSBR. She privatised natural monopolies and gave Sid 500 shares whilst giving millions to foreign institutional investors, selling national assets for 50p to make it attractive. US literally raped the British public.

She also laid the foundations of our banking crises by self regulation.

The MPs didn't get 33% the miners wanted. They got considerably more. However, it was all their living expenses as well as secondary home allowances etc were all brought in during her era to disguise income rises. Most countries have government lodgings for their MPs which they take up residence and then vacate when they lose their seat.

In the UK all the MPs and Lords expenses are allowable. Including multiple homes and bodies that work for them. On top of all that they get a salary.

No one talks of corruption here. How strange? I've lost count how many of Farage's bods were caught with their snouts in the toilet bowl. Filthy dastards the lot of em.

 

[Atilla]

Trying to digest this piece of news gave me indigestion.

A key backer of the Vote Leave campaign, spread-betting multi-millionaire Peter Cruddas, today admitted his company could need a new European headquarters after a Brexit.

Why would they need EU headquarters?