Brexit and the Consequences

[Windlesham1]

I remember carnets- and getting insurance from a specialist firm in the City. Ridiculous-nobody wanted Brexit- yes the EU was up its own backside and needed major changes to stop the flagrant corruption and cheating but it won't change because we left, it just harms the UK. Many EU countries are the wild west in terms of being law abiding, but they are no worse off now.

 

[tomorton]

"nobody wanted Brexit"?

I think you're forgetting the 17 million people who voted Leave.

 

[Windlesham1]

No- all they wanted was to express their racism which has backfired spectacularly.

 

[tomorton]

No- all they wanted was to express their racism which has backfired spectacularly.

You literally reckon that more than half of the people in Britain are racists?

 

[tomorton]

No- all they wanted was to express their racism which has backfired spectacularly.

Or you just want to categorise Leave voters as racists so you don't have to engage with Leave arguments?

 

[Atilla]

I think it is more a case of nobody in the Tory party wanted UKIP and thus they were dealt with.

As it happens UKIP believers are now all in the Tory party as well. UKIP have taken over the Tory party and destroyed standards within.

Some might call it Karma.

Bit of irony there don't you think?

 

[tomorton]

I think it is more a case of nobody in the Tory party wanted UKIP and thus they were dealt with.

As it happens UKIP believers are now all in the Tory party as well. UKIP have taken over the Tory party and destroyed standards within.

Some might call it Karma.

Bit of irony there don't you think?

Of course the threat from UKIP was what persuaded David Cameron to go through with the pledge for a Brexit Referendum. But there was also a threat from within the Conservative Party membership and from the MP's, many of whom were strongly anti-EU long before Nigel Farage entered politics.

UKIP went the way of single-issue campaigns when the single issue is resolved. It seems that UKIP membership peaked at 45,000. At the time, Conservative Party membership was around 130,000, its around 160,000 now. so its hard to see how UKIP have taken it over nor impacted any policies from within. I don't find any reporting on UKIP members joining the Conservative Party, but maybe you're just speculating.

 

[Atilla]

Of course the threat from UKIP was what persuaded David Cameron to go through with the pledge for a Brexit Referendum. But there was also a threat from within the Conservative Party membership and from the MP's, many of whom were strongly anti-EU long before Nigel Farage entered politics.

UKIP went the way of single-issue campaigns when the single issue is resolved. It seems that UKIP membership peaked at 45,000. At the time, Conservative Party membership was around 130,000, its around 160,000 now. so its hard to see how UKIP have taken it over nor impacted any policies from within. I don't find any reporting on UKIP members joining the Conservative Party, but maybe you're just speculating.

It is also possible to have common goals and values but be members of two different parties.

Just as Tory MP's went to represent UKIP the flow of votes also possible to Tories.

I've always thought EuroSeptics should be kicked out of the Tory party but doing the right thing would have meant amputating ones left arm so to speak. Or would that be the right arm?

Either way, personally I think it is beyond dispute and agree with much of what you say about UKIP.

I really see it as the UK knocking herself out with grandiose self-indulgence at levels only the OAP brigade can relate to. When I was a wee young lad I remember.... we saved Europe and now the bloody lil sh!ts won't let us help, telling them what to do anymore. Get your coat Doreen. We are exiting now.

 

[tomorton]

It is also possible to have common goals and values but be members of two different parties.

Just as Tory MP's went to represent UKIP the flow of votes also possible to Tories.

I've always thought EuroSeptics should be kicked out of the Tory party but doing the right thing would have meant amputating ones left arm so to speak. Or would that be the right arm?

Either way, personally I think it is beyond dispute and agree with much of what you say about UKIP.

I really see it as the UK knocking herself out with grandiose self-indulgence at levels only the OAP brigade can relate to. When I was a wee young lad I remember.... we saved Europe and now the bloody lil sh!ts won't let us help, telling them what to do anymore. Get your coat Doreen. We are exiting now.

Neither major party was ever 100% behind the European super-state project. The right of the Conservatives and the left of Labour hated it for different reasons but they gritted their teeth and got out of it what they could in the meantime. Membership was all going to come to a messy end eventually.

I have little time for Brits who retire abroad. Certainly I don't have time to hear how much better their lives are now they can sit in the sun, walk to the village for bread, drink wine, sit in the sun, play golf, sit in the sun, learn yoga, sit in the sun, drink wine, walk to the village for wine, sit in the sun, etc. etc. These are the people I tend to avoid here at home so perhaps I should be happy they have p1ssed off abroad.

Ironic how many of them actively chose to live under the EU........

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Neither major party was ever 100% behind the European super-state project.

Is this the worst of your nightmares?
You speak about it like a dystopian future.
There are much worse nightmares like China ruling the world.
I dont think the British Empire would stop it but maybe a european superstate would...

 

[tomorton]

Is it the worst of your nighmares?
You speak about it like a dystopian future.
There are much worse nightmares like China ruling the world.
I dont think the British Empire would stop it but maybe a european superstate would...

Hard to see the EU as the obvious and essential protection against Chinese world domination.

You seem to imply that UK membership of the EU and Chinese imperialism are binary choices. That seems like a giant step into alternative history fiction.

Meantime, living in the EU was not and would not be a nightmare for me. But my dream remains living in the UK, as a sovereign and independent state.

 

[Windlesham1]

You literally reckon that more than half of the people in Britain are racists?

Yes

 

[Windlesham1]

Or you just want to categorise Leave voters as racists so you don't have to engage with Leave arguments?

Yes

 

[Inquisitor]

No- all they wanted was to express their racism which has backfired spectacularly.

The view that 17M UK voters are racist is at best idiotic. There is never one reason or cause as to why an outcome happens and that includes Brexit.

There was a huge number of people from ethnic minority groups in the UK who voted for Brexit. So this would imply that they put aside their polarised racist views of each other to vote to leave the EU before going back to being outrightly racist to each other again.

Separately to that, it is well known that the media fabricated one group in particular that became the accused scapegoat of falsely labelled racists who voted to leave which were the white middle classes.

Of the people in that group who did vote leave the evidence is now showing that the majority did so because they were more concerned about unelected bureaucrats making decisions that affected their lives who were accountable to no one and because there was no democratic process to remove them. Even Tony Benn who was as socialist as you can get warned against being governed by this type of autocracy.

Tomorton has already made clear, the vote was to take back control from this type of rule and has nothing to with being racist.

In addition to this the idea that the EU is without racists is farcical, look at it’s member states history both recent and over the last 80 years. The EU member states had fascist / communist governments with racist policies that resulted in the death of millions with the likes of Hungary bordering on the same again today. Go to France and speak to the ethnic minorities living in the city suburbs and they all say they are being deliberately discriminated against. Racism is alive and well right inside the EU today.

 

[tomorton]

Yes

Crikey.

When I suggested you had an extremely skewed view of British people's attitudes I didn't expect you to confirm that indeed you do, and also that your view is skewed simply so that you can condemn the Leave arguments without debating their merits. Fair play to you I suppose for having the will to stand by your strange conclusions.

However, if you believe that the UK has a more than 50% proportion of racists living here, there must be some additional evidence that you have to hand which sustains that belief - apart from the EU Referendum result. And it must be really powerful stuff if you can assert what you have now twice said today.

So where is your evidence that the UK is a predominantly racist population?

 

[Windlesham1]

Crikey.

When I suggested you had an extremely skewed view of British people's attitudes I didn't expect you to confirm that indeed you do, and also that your view is skewed simply so that you can condemn the Leave arguments without debating their merits. Fair play to you I suppose for having the will to stand by your strange conclusions.

However, if you believe that the UK has a more than 50% proportion of racists living here, there must be some additional evidence that you have to hand which sustains that belief - apart from the EU Referendum result. And it must be really powerful stuff if you can assert what you have now twice said today.

So where is your evidence that the UK is a predominantly racist population?

My experience of dealing with people for a national charity quite simply tells me that racism is endemic.We are all racist it's the default position -why should people who have not contributed to the UK enjoy the benefits? Leaving the EU has not changed that and yes I have lived in many racist countries in the EU, Africa, America. Brexit was the one chance people had to stick 2 fingers up to the EU. And yes a lot of ethnic minorities resent new people coming to the UK as they have built a life here. However we are the losers -our borders are now out of control with France smirking.

 

[tomorton]

My experience of dealing with people for a national charity quite simply tells me that racism is endemic.We are all racist it's the default position -why should people who have not contributed to the UK enjoy the benefits? Leaving the EU has not changed that and yes I have lived in many racist countries in the EU, Africa, America. Brexit was the one chance people had to stick 2 fingers up to the EU. And yes a lot of ethnic minorities resent new people coming to the UK as they have built a life here. However we are the losers -our borders are now out of control with France smirking.

So you have met a lot of people and some of them had racist attitudes. That's really no surprise and i doubt you'd find a country in the world where that wasn't true.

But are the majority of people in every country racist? I doubt that. And I can't think why the British population should be very different from the global average. Nor why the British be uniquely more racist than other populations.

But still, you say the majority of British people are racist. There is no evidence from you to support your point. Can you back it up?

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I think racism is too strong.
I would say conservative and nostalgic, maybe xenophobic.

 

[tomorton]

I think racism is too strong.
I would say conservative and nostalgic, maybe xenophobic.

Conservative?

Hmmm. Surely nothing like as conservative as highly religion-orientated societies - i.e. all the Muslim countries, plus probably Israel.

According to a quick search, the UK doesn't even fit into the top 15 -
https://politic-ed.com/2020/07/20/15-most-conservative-countries/

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I think that ranking has too much to do with religion.
Conservative is someone who dislikes change/innovation.

These are most nostalgic countries in the world

Over half of British adults want the UK to be "the way it used to be".This is according to research, carried out by Ipsos, which showed that 53.5 per cent of the country longed for yesteryears.As the below chart by Statista shows, only 32.5 per cent disagreed with the notion that the country...

www.indy100.com

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