Brexit and the Consequences

Mr. Charts said:
I agree about HS2.
We should have invested in a new airport in the Thames Estuary. Damn the local birds (they can go to the same place as the pigeons from Trafalgar Square when Red Ken expelled them) and earthworms and newts (speaking of Red Ken).
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That is Boris's idea and I support that too. We've got to stop agreeing like this Mr Charts. :)

I think having it just outside means we avoid noise and build new infrastructure. It can be as big as it needs to be.

I loath Heathrow. Gatwick and in particular Stanstead sooo much better.

The big deal breaker is making Heathrow a hub wrt connecting flights and stop overs. Just relocate Heathrow to the Thames Estuary and turn reclaimed land into a new Housing Estate/Town bit like Milton Keynes stone throw away from London.

With the new cross-link rail it would be a fantastic boost to London and the UK and boost our place in the EU. :idea:
 
forker said:
Sorry but since when does free trade need to be accompanied by migration policy? Is it not enough that their economy will be able to sell to our economy without restrictions? The issue of global integration is a mess and causes more problems than it does good. Lowers wages, splits communities, increases hate, raises costs of living, increased pollution, increased stress on public services... I can't get my head around this mentality of "if you want to trade with us you must also allow our people into your country"
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Maybe they will agree with you but maybe they will have some powerful cards. You can be sure that if they have them, they will play them.

It's not a question of the Brits saying, "You have to do this". I'd like the migrants to stay in their own countries, too. It would solve a lot of problems for everyone. But we must face the realities. The Italians are picking up thousands of them out of the sea on a daily basis.
They are taking them in. Do they like it? I'm sure that they don't, but they have a humanitarian problem that the UK does not seem to appreciate.
 
Split - I don't for a moment accept that the Italian government or any other accepts illegal immigrants out of purely humanitarian motives.

Immigration is not universally good or bad but it can be seen as a barometer of how efficient an administration is. An administration's basic tasks when appointed are to keep its citizens safe and healthy, and to ensure the security of its jurisdiction. An administration that can't manage its own borders according to its own rules isn't worth having.
 
tomorton said:
Split - I don't for a moment accept that the Italian government or any other accepts illegal immigrants out of purely humanitarian motives.

Immigration is not universally good or bad but it can be seen as a barometer of how efficient an administration is. An administration's basic tasks when appointed are to keep its citizens safe and healthy, and to ensure the security of its jurisdiction. An administration that can't manage its own borders according to its own rules isn't worth having.
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How else can these people be left on rafts, if it is not humanitarian, pure and simple? I am an exmerchant navy officer, with a Master's Certificate. I can assure you that no sailor would leave those people to their fates on rafts. Politics has nothing to do with this. In fact, hundreds are dying, as it is.
 
Splitlink said:
How else can these people be left on rafts, if it is not humanitarian, pure and simple? I am an exmerchant navy officer, with a Master's Certificate. I can assure you that no sailor would leave those people to their fates on rafts. Politics has nothing to do with this. In fact, hundreds are dying, as it is.
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Politics has everything to do with it.
A complete shambles of a policy in fact.

Sod all to do with the humanity issue.
If you or I or anyone saw someone in distress, then we would assist them as far as reasonably practical.
If this was a frequent thing, at some point we would be asking questions of government as to what their policy is.

Go blame the EU for the lack of policy !
 
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Splitlink said:
How else can these people be left on rafts, if it is not humanitarian, pure and simple? I am an exmerchant navy officer, with a Master's Certificate. I can assure you that no sailor would leave those people to their fates on rafts. Politics has nothing to do with this. In fact, hundreds are dying, as it is.
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I am sure every merchant or naval vessel the world over would stop and pick these people up. And quite rightly too. But I'm afraid being in need of rescue doesn't confer automatic right of entry and citizenship to the country of your choice.
 
tomorton said:
I am sure every merchant or naval vessel the world over would stop and pick these people up. And quite rightly too. But I'm afraid being in need of rescue doesn't confer automatic right of entry and citizenship to the country of your choice.
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When a ship picks up one or two, you are right. I have described, on this site, somewhere, where we picked up three Spaniards on the run frpm Franco. We had them as crew members until they junped ship, themselves.

But, when they are beng picked out of the sea in the thousands it is going to be a brave politician who says that they cannot land. Want to send them back to Libya-a war zone?

The point is that it is not a British problem--it is an Italian one.Also, a Spanish one, to a lesser but, still, severe,extent. It was a Greek one. Whose will it be next?

It's all about world population growth. It will be the end of us in the end.
 
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Illegal immigration is a legal problem for every country. It is a legal but also a moral duty on its administration to keep its borders secure and admit only legal immigrants.
 
tomorton said:
Illegal immigration is a legal problem for every country. It is a legal but also a moral duty on its administration to keep its borders secure and admit only legal immigrants.
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I agree with that. What happens, though, when a ship arrives with a load of boat people, rescued for humanitarian reasons---the ship could, even, be a government vessel, coastguard or whatever---? Are they taken ashore, all sent back to a war zone, or what?

Who separates the political from the economical? Do you believe that every container entering the UK gets checked? I don't, frankly. Otherwise, there would not be so many illegals in the country.

The whole thing is a bucket of worms. Pull one out and a dozen come out with it.

The UK's problem is that it is going to have to seek trade agreements with a lot of countries. I observe, with interest.
 
As I understand it, universally and throughout history, illegal immigrants into any country have been detained and returned to their country of departure. That is, until left wing politicians saw a way to embarass the right and the right got scared of media images.

To me, if a burglar breaks into my house, I expect the weight of the legal system to help me get him out. If 100 burglars break in, I can only reasonably expect more help of the same kind.
 
100? You are joking? Thousands every week. From what I have heard, a burglary reported in the UK does not receive the attention that it should. Like a lot of other things, including this topic, life is changing and not for the better, I'm afraid.
 
Splitlink said:
100? You are joking? Thousands every week. From what I have heard, a burglary reported in the UK does not receive the attention that it should. Like a lot of other things, including this topic, life is changing and not for the better, I'm afraid.
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Correct. If you steal but are nice about it and treat your victim with decency, the penalty is slight if at all. You are more likely to get aid and help.

If physical assault and GBH is inflicted in the process that gets heavy punishment.

Same with illegals. If they come in legit skilled migrant workers they get turned away.

If they come in as unskilled refugees fleeing a fictitious war or religious persecution they are let in and given help.
 
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Anyone who is finding the diatribes from the Brexit remainers somewhat difficult to fathom, might find this plain man's guide to their meaning helpful.

(Sourced http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/...lain-mans-dictionary-of-lefty-brexit-twaddle/ )


We respect the democratic will of the people and, therefore, we will not oppose Brexit.
Translation: We will oppose Brexit. We will do everything in our power to block Brexit including, but not limited to, launching legal actions as well as scrutinising and adding amendments to any legislation that triggers Article 50. We will make up phrases like hard and soft Brexit, even though we know everyone accepted that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market.

We believe in Parliamentary sovereignty.
Translation: We do not believe that Parliament should be sovereign when it comes to European law. We seek to maintain the current position where British law is subservient to EU law in matters of EU competence.

We believe in a democracy including a free press.
Translation: We do not believe in a free press, only a press that agrees with our worldview. We especially hate the Daily Mail because so many nutters actually buy it and agree with it. If only we could generate some sort of scandal to finish them off.

We believe in freedom of expression.
Translation: We believe in freedom of expression but not for the right wing press, especially (as explained above) for the Daily Mail. Our idea of freedom of expression would be for the Prime Minister to censure the Daily Mail like they do in tin pot dictatorships and, even better, shut their whole wretched operation down.

We need to have a civilised debate.
Translation: We want the Brexiteers to shut up and stop representing the views of the majority. On the other hand, we the Remainiacs should be free to call anyone who disagrees with us ‘racist little Englanders’ who deserve to have sick children
 
Never again it seems, the social change happening in the developed world is for all to see, and one has to wonder about the French and German elections in 2017. A win for Marine Le Pen in France or the AfD party in Germany may not result in a one day sell-off as it will radically increase the prospect of a break-up of the European Monetary Union (EMU). A worry for another time.

From IG in Melbourne

This could be the final nail for the EU next year.
 
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