Brexit and the Consequences

0007 said:
Is this evidence of May's treachery? : (scroll down to John Piggott comments on this blog https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/democracy-soubry-style/ to see original - replicated below )

Yesterday an article appeared at the Bruges Group Site, detailing, or claiming to detail, the contact prior to Chequers between Theresa May and Angela Merkel. This morning it has been taken down.
There are only two reasons that I can think of why this article should be taken down so quickly. Both presume that a challenge was issued from above.
1. When challenged, the article was felt to be too much given to hearsay, or insufficiently supported by secondary documentation to bear the weight of its implications, and reluctantly the decision was taken to remove it from the site.
Or ...
2. The article is just too true, too revealing, and far too incendiary in its implications for the PM and her immediate coterie to tolerate in the public domain, and every conceivable threat has been made to the Tory MPs and Lords associated with the BG to bring pressure to bear and get it removed from the site.
The article can still be viewed here:
https://www.altnewsmedia.ne...

John Piggott's summary:
"For a taster, here is the meat of the allegation:
There is no doubt about the veracity of this account since documents have been seen.
On Monday July 9th 2018, several leading French, German and Dutch senior managers were called by EU officials to an urgent meeting.
The meeting was said to be private and those present were informed that Prime Minister May and Chancellor Merkel had reached an Agreement over Brexit. Knowledge of this was attained from the actual transcript of the meeting between May and Merkel.
1) The Agreement was couched in a way to ‘appease’ the Brexit voters.
2) The Agreement would enable May to get rid of those people in her party who were against progress and unity in the EU.
3) Both Merkel and May agreed that the likely course of events would be that UK would re-join the EU in full at some time after the next general election.
4) May agreed to keep as many EU laws and institutions as she could despite the current groundswell of ‘anti-EU hysteria’ in Britain (May’s own words, apparently.)
5) Merkel and May agreed that the only realistic future for the UK was within the EU.
The original Agreement draft was completed in May 2018 in Berlin and then sent to the UK Government Cabinet Office marked ‘Secret’. "
Click to expand...

There is a whiff of partial fake news about this to me. Whilst I believe that secret negotiations have been ongoing almost from the vote until the present day, those negotiations would have been marked Top Secret with some special caveats to restrict the dissemination of the detail of those negotiations to a privileged few [hundred] with a need to know.

There would have been various redacted reports prepared at lower classification levels for wider dissemination with an unclassified press report at the bottom end.

Anything above unclass would have been a controlled leak of info, purposely designed to lead [mislead] us down a particular road. Anything leaked by a person with higher classification access and not sanctioned by central govt would be taken very seriously as a security breach with heads rolling for sure and we would almost certainly get to hear about it.

Secrecy around the whole Brexit negotiations will be very controlled and the Tories are very good at controlled leaks.

I question who the French, German and Dutch senior managers are? That seems very vague to me.

There’s no smoke without fire as a one time Jacko fan said to me a few years back, so there will be elements of truth in this report, what those elements are is anyone’s guess.
 
Last edited:
timsk said:
Hi Jon,
I assumed Sig' had the BBC in mind when he posted this. I've found the whole Brexit process illuminating on a number of fronts, but probably top of my list is how I now filter 'news'. Three years ago I would have stood up for the BBC as being the fairest, most impartial and most professional news organisation in the world. I now feel very foolish and naive to have ever believed that - as Sig's work colleague probably still does. It's no longer Brexiteers opinion that BBC is the biased, it's plain for anyone to see. Just look at the ratio of remain/leave supporting guests on its programs: Biased Beeb's Brexit Bashing
Tim.
Click to expand...

It's difficult to find coherent people who talk sense to be able to place them in front of cameras to talk sense.

How many times have I heard the words, we've had the vote let's get on with it. End of.

Doesn't exactly make prime time viewing does it?
 
cantagril said:
....then again, almost 50% were sufficiently brain dead, moronic and ill informed to have voted Remain. I'm pleased that you and CV have managed to co-operate so fruitfully in establishing the fundamental reason why the referendum was truly the MOFU.:p
Click to expand...

That is not a fair comparison as it doesn't look at the composition of the electorate.

https://www.politico.eu/article/gra...ics-age-education-party-london-final-results/


Agree on the referendum being a perfect demonstration of how not to.

Even worse was the follow up by our MPs. Intoxicated with potential for power grab they have exceeded them selves.

No BIA. No White Paper. No Nothing. Invoke Article 50 with nothing to replace EU agreements.

Hey presto.


As catalogue of errors go, Brexiteers take the biscuit.


This is just the start. Much worse to follow. Brexiteers are in denial. :eek:
 
Atilla said:
It's difficult to find coherent people who talk sense to be able to place them in front of cameras to talk sense.

How many times have I heard the words, we've had the vote let's get on with it. End of.

Doesn't exactly make prime time viewing does it?
Click to expand...
Hi At',
As is so often the case with your posts, I'm not sure what the point is that you're making? Is that Brexiteers don't make for good viewing on TV and, for that reason, producers of The Andrew Marr Show, Sunday Politics etc., don't invite them on? If so, that's about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard! It ranks up there with the ol' schoolboy excuse for being late for class: 'Sorry sir, my cat got run over by a steamroller and I had to go to the funeral'.
:whistle:
Tim.
 
timsk said:
Hi Jon,
I assumed Sig' had the BBC in mind when he posted this. I've found the whole Brexit process illuminating on a number of fronts, but probably top of my list is how I now filter 'news'. Three years ago I would have stood up for the BBC as being the fairest, most impartial and most professional news organisation in the world. I now feel very foolish and naive to have ever believed that - as Sig's work colleague probably still does. It's no longer Brexiteers opinion that BBC is the biased, it's plain for anyone to see. Just look at the ratio of remain/leave supporting guests on its programs: Biased Beeb's Brexit Bashing
Tim.
Click to expand...

I was in the same boat as you Tim. Although It was an idle look at Tommy Robinson’s controversial story and the way he was vilified by the press and treated by the establishment that kicked me out of my stupor, which then led me into examining the Brexit debacle, the Trump controversy and so on.

I could go back further about 5 years, to when I discovered the paleo/primal diet and began questioning the mainstream medical advice, those alternative views are creeping into the mainstream, so it does work as people are ‘red pilled’.

I think it just needs a spark of interest in something that doesn’t look quite right to get people to scratch the surface.

Now I am alert, I can understand why people hold mainstream views if they haven’t yet experienced that spark of curiosity. It is sad to think that the mainstream still has a hold over millions of people when the alternative news can offer them a chunk of light to challenge their narrative.

Although millions have already scratched the surface and are not happy with what they see and hear, millions more need waking up.

It just shows how well indoctrinated we all are from a very early age. It takes some willpower and self questioning to break those old beliefs, it’s not an easy straightforward process.
 
timsk said:
Hi At',
As is so often the case with your posts, I'm not sure what the point is that you're making? Is that Brexiteers don't make for good viewing on TV and, for that reason, producers of The Andrew Marr Show, Sunday Politics etc., don't invite them on? If so, that's about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard! It ranks up there with the ol' schoolboy excuse for being late for class: 'Sorry sir, my cat got run over by a steamroller and I had to go to the funeral'.
:whistle:
Tim.
Click to expand...


Doesn't matter what anyone says.

You don't have to understand.

We've had the vote just get on with it.

:p
 
Signalcalc said:
If this is the first time you hearing this then, you are not very widely read. What he actually said was:

"signing up to the EU constitution would undoubtably increase the pressure on Britain to enter the single currency"

What EU constitution are you referring to?

Do you seriously believe UK will be pressured into joining the Euro?

Why is it that you think the EU is not in the business of more political and economic integration and would therefore not apply pressure to join the Euro at any opportunity as I'm sure it already does?:rolleyes:

I told you, EU is based on a tiered membership to a paid up club model, where existing members have to agree to the acceptance of any new member. There is no coercion.

Really, and who is to say that more pressure won't be applied post-2020 or if national government changes and decides that we now meet the 5 economic tests set out by Gordon Brown? The stated end goal of the EUSSR is complete and total political, economic, fiscal and cultural union, nothing else is acceptable, you either join as Borg or are destroyed by the EU gulag (EU gulag building underway BTW: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/10/eu-internet-censorship-will-censor-whole-worlds-internet)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance...l-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-doesnt-england-use-euro.asp



Wrong! I don't know what film you have been watching or through what type of distorted lens you are using, he states that: there is a huge misconception that the EU political and economic model represents the future, big mistake. And then he goes onto explain that the EU model is copied nowhere in the developed world (USA, Japan, S.Korea, Oz etc), and that customs unions have existed in Africa, Russia and satellites.

Why are you repeating these lines?

Your interpretation of "EU political and economic model represents the future, big mistake" is deceptively mind boggling to even the most intelligent Sri Lankian! You twist the video's words without somehow realising we can all go and watch the same video and listen to a different explanation than the one you attempt to provide.



Does NAFTA impose political and economic integration on it members, like the EU does? No? Then let's stick to the context shall we: "EU political and economic model represents the future, big mistake"



So it's not the same. He explains that the China/India model is "user friendly, govt to govt, light touch", so absolutely nothing like the EU integration model: "EU political and economic model represents the future, big mistake"



Yourself and the EU are entitled to think what you like about shared common values and principals, there are quite a few million that disagree with you and EU. And to think that you think the Chinese aspire to the EU model, what are you, Chinese or somethink?

ASEAN free trade area also is building a new Alliance framework that supersedes the common free trade areas. What does alliance mean to you? Does joint military defense spring to your mind? Does Russia and China conducting joint military exercises mean anything to you?

Oh yes, that only proves that we don't need the EU for free trade agreements, thanks for making the Brexit argument (y)



Careful, we'll end up with a Project Fear discussion agn.



Taking it out of context again or still need your ears syringing? He's not making the comparison you are making, he is making the point that the US exports more to the EU than the UK "without paying a penny to Brussels or imposing one ounce of regulation on the US economy".



It's certainly none of the non-academic, unprofessional interpretation and spin you are trying to put onto this video. I suggest that if you are going to pull a set of arguments apart for examination and to rebuke, that you either listen to what is being said or take off the remainer kaleidoscope you are looking through, it really is fudging with your mind :ROFLMAO:



I thought we were past peak Project Fear? I guess not.
Click to expand...


You keep talking about political and economic model represents the future and how it is a big mistake with no evidence. Does that count as brexiteers playing the fear card. Loss of sovereignty and enslavement to European bereaurcrats. Oooohhh.... As if that's a possibility.

You still haven't explained why they show these subtitles when talking about political and economic model stating European model doesn't exist anywhere.

1551914410560.png

1551914448256.png


Have you noticed how there is very little movement and only their lips move. Words only account for 10% of communications. Considering their is no facial expression, changes in tone or hand movements, that means your eyes and brain are processing 50-60% of the visuals and words are just background hypnotic noise.

That whole video clip is factually inaccurate and I would put to you custom designed and built to brain wash the non thinking public.

There you go talking about MSM and the BBC and then you are seriously blind to what you are seeing and hearing.

Bit dissapointed in you SC. Where you see FREE TRADE and CUSTOMS UNION should read...

EU political and economic model represents the future, big mistake" which is the sentence Milne starts off by. You've picked up on it but others haven't.

I might agree with you if the sub-titled text said EU Political model is not used anywhere else in the World but sadly it doesn't.

That production much like rest of Brexit is to really designed to stitch up the simple layman's non-thinking brain with tripe he doesn't understand. (y)
 
Atilla said:
You keep talking about political and economic model represents the future and how it is a big mistake with no evidence. Does that count as brexiteers playing the fear card. Loss of sovereignty and enslavement to European bereaurcrats. Oooohhh.... As if that's a possibility.

You still haven't explained why they show these subtitles when talking about political and economic model stating European model doesn't exist anywhere.

View attachment 260758
View attachment 260760

Have you noticed how there is very little movement and only their lips move. Words only account for 10% of communications. Considering their is no facial expression, changes in tone or hand movements, that means your eyes and brain are processing 50-60% of the visuals and words are just background hypnotic noise.

That whole video clip is factually inaccurate and I would put to you custom designed and built to brain wash the non thinking public.

There you go talking about MSM and the BBC and then you are seriously blind to what you are seeing and hearing.

Bit dissapointed in you SC. Where you see FREE TRADE and CUSTOMS UNION should read...

EU political and economic model represents the future, big mistake" which is the sentence Milne starts off by. You've picked up on it but others haven't.

I might agree with you if the sub-titled text said EU Political model is not used anywhere else in the World but sadly it doesn't.

That production much like rest of Brexit is to really designed to stitch up the simple layman's non-thinking brain with tripe he doesn't understand. (y)
Click to expand...

So what’s your argument?
 
0007 said:
Only Brexiteers? :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...

Well spotted 0007 but let's rephrase that then, the UK public are targetted by specially crafted messages with inaccurate and false assertions to mislead them into Brexit - the promised land.
 
Signalcalc said:
I was in the same boat as you Tim. Although It was an idle look at Tommy Robinson’s controversial story and the way he was vilified by the press and treated by the establishment that kicked me out of my stupor, which then led me into examining the Brexit debacle, the Trump controversy and so on.

I could go back further about 5 years, to when I discovered the paleo/primal diet and began questioning the mainstream medical advice, those alternative views are creeping into the mainstream, so it does work as people are ‘red pilled’.

I think it just needs a spark of interest in something that doesn’t look quite right to get people to scratch the surface.

Now I am alert, I can understand why people hold mainstream views if they haven’t yet experienced that spark of curiosity. It is sad to think that the mainstream still has a hold over millions of people when the alternative news can offer them a chunk of light to challenge their narrative.

Although millions have already scratched the surface and are not happy with what they see and hear, millions more need waking up.

It just shows how well indoctrinated we all are from a very early age. It takes some willpower and self questioning to break those old beliefs, it’s not an easy straightforward process.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the enlightened side. There's just too much that needs questioning and investigating. Fake news is indeed the norm across MSM but still has to be read or watched in order to know where to start looking for the truth, usually found in the opposite direction. A classic case of fake news, deflection, subversion, spin, etc, etc is the McCann farce. If you have the time, delve into it.
 
Atilla said:
Well spotted 0007 but let's rephrase that then, the UK public are targetted by specially crafted messages with inaccurate and false assertions to mislead them into Brexit - the promised land.
Click to expand...

Yes, it’s called a political campaign :) . And a damn good one it was, too. Truth always takes a bit of a back seat in all campaigns, but it’s not usually bent as much.
 
Atilla said:
Well spotted 0007 but let's rephrase that then, the UK public are targetted by specially crafted messages with inaccurate and false assertions to mislead them into Brexit - the promised land.
Click to expand...

Good one! Brexiters are the enlightened ones as we are prepared to question, dismiss the MSM propaganda masqueraded as truth.
Remainers ought to be following our lead and questioning the BS they are being fed.
 
barjon said:
Yes, it’s called a political campaign :) . And a damn good one it was, too. Truth always takes a bit of a back seat in all campaigns, but it’s not usually bent as much.
Click to expand...

So despite the full weight of the establishment, nearly all UK political leaders in charge at the time, presidents and politicians around the globe, EU members, the full weight of the MSM, just about every business leader and the vast majority of global leaders of one sort or another all set on remain, they couldn’t convince the UK electorate not to vote leave.

And it all comes down to a well crafted Brexit campaign? I think not!

My colleague in his naivety (bless him) came out with: “I don’t understand why people thought voting for Brexit would solve all our problems”, I chuckled to myself knowing that this is one of the many myths that remainers still believe to be true of leave voters. It set me down a line of mild questioning related to why he thought this and the result was as per my previous post, he takes his knowledge and understanding from MSM and does not believe that looking for answers elsewhere will provide any reality, because reality, to him, is MSM.

I totally agree with CV in that you have to read MSM to understand why remainers think as they do. And then balance that with alt media reporting. Also alt media often reports where MSM find it convenient not to, a shame, as I would like to see and encourage both sides of the story to be presented so that we can form our own opinions, whilst trying to maintain some mental independence in our own views of reality. Unfortunately MSM is far too politicised and partisan to provide balanced views, couple that with cheap lazy journalism and we see why people have turned away from it.

Still MSM will continue in its current form as a govt propaganda tool supported by tax payers money in one form or another, we have to live with the MSM and it’s consequences (cue the start of another thread [emoji16][emoji1360]).
 
Signalcalc said:
So

........And it all comes down to a well crafted Brexit campaign? I think not!....

]).
Click to expand...

Of course not. The campaign recognised the anti-EU mood of the day and the reasons people were in that mood. It then pandered to those reasons with its own version of “project fear” (those 60million Turks about to descend on us, etc) and half truths (that vast amount of money it cost us - gross amount rather than net as it turned out - that was going to the NHS instead, etc)

As I said, it was a brilliant campaign and added enough to gain a marginal victory. Mind you, to listen to the talk now you’d have thought it was won by a country mile and we remainers are cast as remoaners who have got to shut up and adopt the Brexit faith. Didn’t stop the brexiteers moaning for years when the boot was on the other foot did it.
 
barjon said:
. . .Mind you, to listen to the talk now you’d have thought it was won by a country mile and we remainers are cast as remoaners who have got to shut up and adopt the Brexit faith . . .
Click to expand...
Hi Jon,
If it's any consolation, I distinguish between remainers and remoaners. A remainer is someone who voted remain but accepts the 2016 result and is resigned to leaving. A remoaner is someone who voted remain but does not accept the 2016 result and is intent on reversing it. I have no issues with the former. Indeed, they are the reason why leave will win with an increased majority if there's a second referendum, as this large group understands and accepts that preserving our parliamentary democracy is waaay more important than any Brexit outcome. Millions of them will vote leave next time for this reason alone. Which group are you in? I put you in the remain camp for the most part, with your toe occasionally dipping into the remoan camp - usually when one of us pesky Brexiteers presses your buttons!
;)
Tim.
 
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