big bucks can only be made by professionals

[police]

Having worked and traded in many environments I have come to the clear conclusion that to be a successful trader, (and I do not accept that making small beer is successful) you have to get set up professionally in all aspects of what you are attempting to achieve. Half hearted and non-commitment is never a recipe for Succeess.

Trading for part timers is like grand prix driving in a mini: you might take the odd good corner, but you'll never win the race, and probably break down anyway!

 

[shadowninja]

You're possibly right about trading in that if you just trade risking £5 each time because you're too scared, you'll never make the big money. However, your analogy is rubbish; I've driven a TVR (not renowned for reliability) round a track all day, on the limit... and beyond, and not had a problem. :cheesy:

 

[FXSCALPER2]

Obviously it depends on what you consider big money. Having said that, the only reason trading is more attractive than other businesses is that, you can actually make a lot of money from relatively modest capital basis.

 

[police]

where did u learn physics: if u take something "beyond its limit " then . . . . .by definition . . . . .it breaks !!!

but banter aside , how about the reference to trading?

 

[Hoggums]

Having worked and traded in many environments I have come to the clear conclusion that to be a successful trader, (and I do not accept that making small beer is successful) you have to get set up professionally in all aspects of what you are attempting to achieve. Half hearted and non-commitment is never a recipe for Succeess.

Trading for part timers is like grand prix driving in a mini: you might take the odd good corner, but you'll never win the race, and probably break down anyway!

Interesting - although I do think it's all relative.

Someone worth over £10m is not going to think much of dabbling with 100K and would be the same as a regular punter putting on £2pp. Someone trading their life savings of 100K on the other hand is emotionally risking much more.

If all make say 75% over the year - how can you define the millionaire as being successful and the £2pp punter as not?

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

As Hoggums says, it's all relative.

Can a person of average resources but good trading talent make a decent living from trading for themself. Sure. Can you make 'big bucks' - depends a little on your definitions, but probably not. Those that are making big money had big money to bring to the table in the first place, I would suggest. And it's no coincidence that many of the most erudite and knowledgeable contrubutors to this board are in employment of some kind or another as traders.

 

[shadowninja]

where did u learn physics: if u take something "beyond its limit " then . . . . .by definition . . . . .it breaks !!!

When you go beyond the limit, you go sideways... or spin, depending on your skill level.

The first part of my reply was about trading.

 

[Rhody Trader]

Having worked and traded in many environments I have come to the clear conclusion that to be a successful trader, (and I do not accept that making small beer is successful) you have to get set up professionally in all aspects of what you are attempting to achieve. Half hearted and non-commitment is never a recipe for Succeess.

Trading for part timers is like grand prix driving in a mini: you might take the odd good corner, but you'll never win the race, and probably break down anyway!

To the thread title, I would correct it to "big bucks can only be made by folks with big bucks". A guy with a 10k account isn't going to make a million any time soon, but a guy with 10 mil could make it quite easily. But who's more successful - the guy turning 10k in to 20k or the guy making 1 mil off a 10 mil account? The quick answer many folks would jump to would be the first guy, but you can't say that without a more specific explanation of each trader's objectives.

I will, however, agree with the point that for long-term success to be achieve one does need to take a professional approach to trading.

 

[Hoggums]

To the thread title, I would correct it to "big bucks can only be made by folks with big bucks". A guy with a 10k account isn't going to make a million any time soon, but a guy with 10 mil could make it quite easily. But who's more successful - the guy turning 10k in to 20k or the guy making 1 mil off a 10 mil account? The quick answer many folks would jump to would be the first guy, but you can't say that without a more specific explanation of each trader's objectives.

I will, however, agree with the point that for long-term success to be achieve one does need to take a professional approach to trading.

Personally I would define anyone who beats the rate of interest you can get in a cash account over 12 months as successful - regardless of capital employed.

 

[Citizen2007]

Having worked and traded in many environments I have come to the clear conclusion that to be a successful trader, (and I do not accept that making small beer is successful) you have to get set up professionally in all aspects of what you are attempting to achieve. Half hearted and non-commitment is never a recipe for Succeess.

Trading for part timers is like grand prix driving in a mini: you might take the odd good corner, but you'll never win the race, and probably break down anyway!

I think the whole thing comes down to "its not what you do its how you do it" . that also applies to trading. You will find in every field many people involved in the same business, but only a handful make the real money, the reason is that they do what they do in a different way.

This is akin to having a good method. Many traders have a method that works for them and allows them to generate a living from the markets. They are very disciplined and follow all the rules of trading and money management. Although they have a professional approach to trading, they may not be as successful (financially)as, say a property developer, because their system generates a balanced win/loss ratio.

This trader will call himself a successful trader, he has all the attributes of a professional in his approach, just not such a robust trading system, though he still makes money trading full time.

On the other hand you have a trader who has also developed a system that allows him to buy and hold over several days. He makes far more money than the daytrader because he trades a larger size . He only trades part time but has even better returns than the property developer .

I use the above examples from reality, i know traders who are in both situations . But the point being its how you do what you do that will make a difference.

In trading this may involve trying to understand price and the markets a little more so as to develop a better system which will increase % winners.

 

[peto]

Size moves markets. Hence having size means you can influence (if not dictate) the direction your market will go in. You do the moving, you are not a feather being blown hither and fither in the wind. Used correctly this should cancel or over-balance the disadvantage of the slippage large trades incur, and having to 'hide your hand'?

 

[police]

I did not mean that you need to have big bucks to make big bucks.
Indeed you can start with small bucks and with a professional approach gradually build your account up.
In the right environment with the necessary degree of dedication you can make BIG BUCKS!
I know 100% that this is achievable. I have seen many pro traders start with nothing to become extremely succesful.
However I have yet to meet a successful trader who dabbles part-time or who is not set up in a professional manner.
The message is : Dedication & Professionalism

 

[Rhody Trader]

I did not mean that you need to have big bucks to make big bucks.

No, but I did. By that I mean in order to create large amounts of trading profits you need to have a large capital base. It's all relative, of course. One of the Market Wizards guys said he would never judge a potential fund manager by returns alone. He'd want to know how much money he/she actually made. The point he was making is that it's one thing to run a small account up and a whole other to trade large account.

Indeed you can start with small bucks and with a professional approach gradually build your account up. In the right environment with the necessary degree of dedication you can make BIG BUCKS! I know 100% that this is achievable. I have seen many pro traders start with nothing to become extremely succesful. However I have yet to meet a successful trader who dabbles part-time or who is not set up in a professional manner. The message is : Dedication & Professionalism

I don't disagree with the professional approach part. I would most definitely argue, though, that part-time does not mean non-professional. You don't need to be a full-time trader to be successful. I'd even go so far as to say that full-time trading is the worst possible idea for some folks.

 

[Profitaker]

Having worked and traded in many environments I have come to the clear conclusion that to be a successful trader, (and I do not accept that making small beer is successful) you have to get set up professionally in all aspects of what you are attempting to achieve. Half hearted and non-commitment is never a recipe for Succeess.

But unless you have first hand and equal amounts of experience with traders who are “half-hearted and non-committal” (maybe you have ?) then this is anecdotal, rather than a scientific fact. I mention this only because I’m sure we’ve all sat next to the lad in high school that walks the exams, and with good grades, yet seemingly does little work. I’m sure there are some successful half-hearted and non-committal traders out there.

On the subject of success - I would venture to suggest it’s got nothing to do with the amount of money made in absolute terms, but your return on capital (%). Even then, you would need to look at the risk which was taken in order to make the money, so a risk adjusted measure would be more a appropriate measure of success, Sharpe ratio or similar.

Trading for part timers is like grand prix driving in a mini: you might take the odd good corner, but you'll never win the race, and probably break down anyway!

Love the analogy !

However I have yet to meet a successful trader who dabbles part-time or who is not set up in a professional manner.

What exactly do you mean by “set up” in a professional manner ?

Interesting thread !

 

[police]

What exactly do you mean by “set up” in a professional manner ?

Where do you trade from?

Compare that to where I were to trade from if I worked at Goldmans.

What does the money no object trader have at his disposal?

Although its unrealistic to emulate all the advantages os say a Goldmans prop trader try and get your set up as close are realistically possible -
get some a good chart package,
information on volumes,
historical data such as recent market inflection points,
a good news source - more than one if you can,
subscribe to some brokertalk applications,
get wired in to some professionals who can give u the heads up on flows,

I know thats all a lot of things but thats what you are competing against.

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

I know thats all a lot of things but thats what you are competing against.

Sorry Police, but if you think that list is the difference between how GS make it work and the home trader, you're doomed to failure. You're getting closer with your last item on the list, but there is no way you'll get anything like the information flows that a GS prop trader has at their fingertips.

 

[police]

I agree with you Jack,
but if u read what i was saying in my last post and thru the thread as a whole you will understand that i am saying you need to set yourself as PROFESSIONALLY AS POSSIBLE.
If you do not you have little chance of success. I was responding to an earlier question as to some of the things one can do to SET-UP in that manner. It was not meant to be a handbook on do's and dont's.

And you would be amazed how some guys trade by doing no more than just about guessing and having a punt

kind regards

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

Agreed. But there are two areas: one is making sure that you have the equipment and information you need to trade. I remember a successful (ex-pro) trader saying that it never ceased to amaze him that beginners try and set up a trading business, which already has the advantage of almost no fixed overheads, and then try and scrimp and save on the few things you really do need to do the job properly. So subcribe to a good data feed and buy decent chart software, use a good broker, etc etc. The second element is much more difficult to replicate and that is experience and mindset. Neither are easy for the home trader, starting out from scratch, and having to feel their way through trial and error, and I think it's here that the gap between pro and amateur is at its widest.

 

[police]

Absolutely Concur .
Kinda goes back to the point thats you cannot really compete as a part - timer. I am mot saying you should not try though. If a home trader whether full time or part time can make good money from trading, imagine how good he would be if he had a professional set-up. I would say he could be awesome!!

 

[Rhody Trader]

Kinda goes back to the point thats you cannot really compete as a part - timer.

You can't make that statement without providing a way of measuring the competition. Are we talking rate or return? Sharpe Ratio? Income per hour worked?