Baby P - Your thoughts :(

zupcon said:
resources that should be directed at front line services will in fact end up in the pocket of the friends of some bent PM acting in a consultancy capacity to produce a report stating everythings fine, at worst some social worker type will lose their job, only to be replaced by a cheaper, more compliant, and less experienced version, and the cycle continues.
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This is classic and the sort of crap that goes on in any organisation not just social services or Government.

I've mostly worked in the private sector and I've seen this phenomenon occur many times.

Managers pressurise those at the point of delivery to use resources sparingly and in extreme cases even withhold resources altogether. Any protests from below are met with allegations of being a trouble maker, a pessimist or deliberately being obstructive. Then, when catastrophic failure inevitably occurs managers flip from resource saving, bonus boosting mode into ar$e saving, blame mode.

and it's usually some poor bugger on 20k a year that gets it in the neck.

It's the old bunker mentality, the world has worked this way for thousands of years and it'll still be the same a thousand years from now.

dd
 
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This is exactly what happened in the Victoria Climbe tragedy, a Jnr social worker was made a scapegoat. I think this time the public (us) are looking much higher up the food chain.

let's hope so anyway :(
 
dick_dastardly said:
This is classic and the sort of crap that goes on in any organisation not just social services or Government.

I've mostly worked in the private sector and I've seen this phenomenon occur many times.

Managers pressurise those at the point of delivery to use resources sparingly and in extreme cases even withhold resources altogether. Any protests from below are met with allegations of being a trouble maker, a pessimist or deliberately being obstructive. Then, when catastrophic failure inevitably occurs managers flip from resource saving, bonus boosting mode into ar$e saving, blame mode.

and it's usually some poor bugger on 20k a year that gets it in the neck.

It's the old bunker mentality, the world has worked this way for thousands of years and it'll still be the same a thousand years from now.

dd
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There was some management-type woman on the radio a few days ago saying that all the boxes had been ticked and therefore the system was basically ok. What crap!

Interviewer's comment was: "should we accept the odd death as just one of those things?" Management didn't actually say we should but the reply gave me the impression that that is how they really accept the situation. No wonder haringey is in such a state.

The BBC program last night seems to indicate that plenty of lower grades and non-influential authorities were aware of the problem and did their best to get something done but were thwarted by management > system > government > politicians > electorate who [I think] are (were) more interested in borrowing and sub-prime and the value (what a joke!) of their house.

A sad reflection on our society.
 
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there was a phome-in last week on 5 Live. One or two points to bear in mind, although that does not diminish the the horror of this particular story.

A lot of these case workers go to houses alone and, because of the nature of their visit, the places are inhabited by very aggressive people. Some of these workers are very intimidated and are, by their own admission, very naive in their first months. In short, a lot will believe what they are told until they get experience.

This is something that has to be addressed. It will probably mean that police will have to go along with these workers, all of which will add to the budget.

So I see that this sector of the council's budget will need more money, That is what it is all about, really, isn't it?

Plus the fear of getting what the child gets, or fear of getting the sack.

Perhaps, instead of twice a week visits, the child should have to be brought, frequently, to a clinic for a medical checkup.

What is needed is a thorough overhaul in how things are done without the frontline workers worrying about whether they are doing something "politically" incorrect. Otherwise, we are at risk of losing good people who are doing what I. at least, and I suspect a lot of us would not wish to do.

As I said, before, a doctor or nurses report to the police should be all that is needed to get the aggressors arrested but the present system makes that difficult. I don't know why.
 
Splitlink said:
there was a phome-in last week on 5 Live. One or two points to bear in mind, although that does not diminish the the horror of this particular story.

A lot of these case workers go to houses alone and, because of the nature of their visit, the places are inhabited by very aggressive people. Some of these workers are very intimidated and are, by their own admission, very naive in their first months. In short, a lot will believe what they are told until they get experience.

This is something that has to be addressed. It will probably mean that police will have to go along with these workers, all of which will add to the budget.

So I see that this sector of the council's budget will need more money, That is what it is all about, really, isn't it?

Plus the fear of getting what the child gets, or fear of getting the sack.

Perhaps, instead of twice a week visits, the child should have to be brought, frequently, to a clinic for a medical checkup.

What is needed is a thorough overhaul in how things are done without the frontline workers worrying about whether they are doing something "politically" incorrect. Otherwise, we are at risk of losing good people who are doing what I. at least, and I suspect a lot of us would not wish to do.

As I said, before, a doctor or nurses report to the police should be all that is needed to get the aggressors arrested but the present system makes that difficult. I don't know why.
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Good food for thought. I htink we have to remember that often, we are dealing with the dregs of society and I sympathise with the front-line staff in this respect.

It probably does need more money but, and it's a big but, throwing money at a problem (ie the socialist way) often doesn't work. It needs a culture change, then we can start looking at finance.

There is more to this than just the sordid details of Haringey - it's a reflection on society's priorities and aspirations. 99.9% of people are decent and would have no truck with such behaviour but the low-life will always be there and need to be watched and kept on a short lead.
 
I think Britain as a whole has a serious problem with these "dregs" of society. I remember one day living in a fairly nice house in South Africa to the next living in a high rise council flat on the outskirts of Cardiff. At 11 years of age I witnessed the body of a big dog hanging from a rope tied to it's throat dead whilst 2 children played beneath with some toy cars, on another day I told a drunk woman I didn't like horses and she proceeded to start strangling me, finally someone interveed and I ran away blue and choking, the same woman let herself into our flat when my mother downstairs in a neighbours flat she then proceeded to rub my baby brothers private parts, he was screaming and crying I managed to get him into the kitchen away from her and with all my strength against the door whilst i shouted at my friend to get some help.

My point I guess that even with South Africa with all it's problems this behavior was completely alien to us! Never in my LIFE before this had a ever heard and never seen anything like it EXCEPT the odd horror story in maybe a township and even then alot of child abuse/sick stories are from witch craft superstitions. But I still don't get it because people from a township they have literally nothing, there is real poverty yet here these people still have a roof over their heads, hot water, free money and they can afford to sit on the internet all day watching porn and playing poker like Baby P's "mother".
 
cryten said:
I think Britain as a whole has a serious problem with these "dregs" of society. I remember one day living in a fairly nice house in South Africa to the next living in a high rise council flat on the outskirts of Cardiff. At 11 years of age I witnessed the body of a big dog hanging from a rope tied to it's throat dead whilst 2 children played beneath with some toy cars, on another day I told a drunk woman I didn't like horses and she proceeded to start strangling me, finally someone interveed and I ran away blue and choking, the same woman let herself into our flat when my mother downstairs in a neighbours flat she then proceeded to rub my baby brothers private parts, he was screaming and crying I managed to get him into the kitchen away from her and with all my strength against the door whilst i shouted at my friend to get some help.

My point I guess that even with South Africa with all it's problems this behavior was completely alien to us! Never in my LIFE before this had a ever heard and never seen anything like it EXCEPT the odd horror story in maybe a township and even then alot of child abuse/sick stories are from witch craft superstitions. But I still don't get it because people from a township they have literally nothing, there is real poverty yet here these people still have a roof over their heads, hot water, free money and they can afford to sit on the internet all day watching porn and playing poker like Baby P's "mother".
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There is no substitute for love in all the world. Key ingredient and birth of all goodness.

They did an experiment in the 60s about working conditions. They explained to the personnel that they were part of an experiment and wanted to see how environmental factors (modern day ergonomics) effected their productivity.

Lights were turned up and performance measured. Productivity went up.
New comfortable chairs were given. Productivity went up.
Longer breaks and empowerment was applied to personnel. Productivity went up.

In reverse:

Lights were turned down and likewise performance measured. To everyones suprise productivity continued up.

New chairs taken away and uncomfortable ones given back in tatty condition. To everyones continued surprise productivity continued going up.

Breaks were shortened and personnel given extra work beyond normal levels and surprise surprise everyone coped and productivity continued through the roof.


Tough one to explain but the outcome was that the focus interest and attention on the guinea pigs made them feel centre of attention and interest. Whole factory came together as a team and delivered on productivity despite creature discomforts.

It is always the human factor and social aspects that get results. People are always capable of much more if the correct social triggers are applied. Everybody wants to feel part of a community.

Humans are SOCIAL "ANIMALS". Take the social element out of it and we are merely wild animals.

This is our modern capitalist disease of individualism where everyone is out for their own gain.


I believe the soul of the monsters who caused the death of Baby.P are dead. Execution is the only solution in my eyes.

Outcome now is approx £16K will be spend p/a, each looking after these heartless criminals for the next 14 or 7 years in prison. They will then come out even more screwed up and dysfunctional to cause further **** on unsuspecting individuals of society.

Bring back capital punishment to this so called civilised society. :mad:


Won't be the last child death but I'm sure it will make the *******s think twice before exercising their brutality as such people are often cowards inside.

It will also help society and people like me feel a little bit better that justice has been served at least in this world if not the next. :cry:
 
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I wish I knew the right answer to all this. I am completely indifferent to those three, because they are monsters. Just as long as the people believe that justice has been done to them. So many times does public opinion feel disatisfied by the outcome of a trial because the guilty will be out on the streets within a short time.

I believe that these three would have a very tough time in prison and that would a better punishment than death but I fear that they will be out much earlier than we would like.
 
Splitlink said:
I wish I knew the right answer to all this. I am completely indifferent to those three, because they are monsters. Just as long as the people believe that justice has been done to them. So many times does public opinion feel disatisfied by the outcome of a trial because the guilty will be out on the streets within a short time.

I believe that these three would have a very tough time in prison and that would a better punishment than death but I fear that they will be out much earlier than we would like.
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Let's hope so Split. I read somewhere all their names were pasted on military website by soldiers blogging. Information was subsequently removed by authorities but names and faces then showed up on Face book. Facebook vigilantes identify mother of Baby P - Home News, UK - The Independent


Either way I think we definately need to bring back capital punishment for murderers where they have been identified without doubt.
 
I got warned by a judge not to publish things on the internet (and if I did I'd be in contempt of court) about a court case a former friend was involved in (funny story, actually) so I would caution against saying anything about their identity here... and in any case who gives a ****?
 
Atilla said:
Either way I think we definately need to bring back capital punishment for murderers where they have been identified without doubt.
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But Atilla, had this been the law back in the seventies then Stefan Ivan Kiszko would've surely hanged ?




Quote from the link above, 3rd paragraph in the section titled Case reopened

"Then, the three females involved in the original conviction admitted that the evidence they gave which led to Kiszko's arrest and conviction was false, and that they had lied for "a laugh".




It is NOT so called do-gooders, but the mob, unprofessional police officers and those three little girls that lied only to recant many years later that now save paedo's and murderers from the gallows......

so direct your anger at them !


dd
 
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dick_dastardly said:
But Atilla, had this been the law back in the seventies then Stefan Ivan Kiszko would've surely hanged ?




Quote from the link above, 3rd paragraph in the section titled Case reopened

"Then, the three females involved in the original conviction admitted that the evidence they gave which led to Kiszko's arrest and conviction was false, and that they had lied for "a laugh".




It is NOT so called do-gooders, but the mob, unprofessional police officers and those three little girls that lied only to recant many years later that now save paedo's and murderers from the gallows......

so direct your anger at them !


dd
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BUT we are not in the 60s anymore. Science and forensics have progressed.

Also, suggesting this happens all over the world and reading in this mornings paper couple of 20 year old brothers killed a 3 year old girl by practicing wrestling throws on her and final blow - a kick in the head, doesnt' ease our pain.

Hang the fockers where there is irrefutable substantial forensic proof of murder. :mad:

If there is the odd miscarriage of justice it should balance 1000s of miscarriage of justices taking place now with these sad *******s consuming other persons human rights.

Then morality may begin to resurface again... We live in hope. :idea:
 
Atilla said:
BUT we are not in the 60s anymore. Science and forensics have progressed.
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Yes progressed, but how far ? to absolute perfection ?

and how far has the human mind progressed during the same period ?

Atilla said:
If there is the odd miscarriage of justice it should balance 1000s of miscarriage of justices taking place now with these sad *******s consuming other persons human rights.
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But those that make such statements as this do so on the assumption that a miscarriage of justice will never happen to them and you simply cannot make that assumption.

Would you still hold this view if you were an innocent man eating his last meal on the morning of his execution ?

dd
 
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dick_dastardly said:
Yes progressed, but how far ? to absolute perfection ?

and how far has the human mind progressed during the same period ?



But those that make such statements as this do so on the assumption that a miscarriage of justice will never happen to them and you simply cannot make that assumption.

Would you still hold this view if you were an innocent man eating his last meal on the morning of his execution ?

dd
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Absolutely 100%. We all have to die someday may as well be for a good cause.

I'd recommend reading The Consolation of Philosophy (Penguin Classics) (Paperback)
by Ancius Boethius (Author) for the what if and why's...
 
dick_dastardly said:
WHAT ! :-0

Nooooooooo way !

I just don't believe you really mean that Atilla.

dd
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I sincerely do so.

Do I understand that you consider the probability of being accidentally or deliberately framed for murder is greater than some thug breaking into your house and kicking the **** out of you and being done for 15 years man slaughter as an act of burglary?

Capital punishment would make all these thugs and cowards think twice if they knew they will hang for their crime.

Injection is too polite for them imo.

The number of indiscriminate deaths for no other apparent reason then some freaking teenagers not like being looked at is inexcusable. Eye for an eye. You knife someone expect society to lynch you.

These politicians and the educated civilised elite are far to high browed and stuffy imho. They are far too distant from reality and well protected. Their views would changed if they lived next to a pit bull terrier... :clover:
 
Atilla said:
I sincerely do so.

Do I understand that you consider the probability of being accidentally or deliberately framed for murder is greater than some thug breaking into your house and kicking the **** out of you and being done for 15 years man slaughter as an act of burglary?

Capital punishment would make all these thugs and cowards think twice if they knew they will hang for their crime.

Injection is too polite for them imo.

The number of indiscriminate deaths for no other apparent reason then some freaking teenagers not like being looked at is inexcusable. Eye for an eye. You knife someone expect society to lynch you.

These politicians and the educated civilised elite are far to high browed and stuffy imho. They are far too distant from reality and well protected. Their views would changed if they lived next to a pit bull terrier... :clover:
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Yes, I feel that they would, too.

I've been listening to the Stephen Nolan show on Ulster, which is podcasted. A guy named Finley has been inside twice for raping two women. He's been let out and is graded Class 3, which is the most dangerous class of this type of criminal and he must report, regularly. Guess what? They've lost him.

The women are scared stiff of going out at night, so what kind of life is that?
 
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