Baby P - Your thoughts :(

dd,

This is very complex.

What could be worrying is that these councils could swing from one extreme to the other.

The doctor who attended to the child. I thought that it was the duty of doctors to report cases caused by violence to the police.

I haven't lived in the UK for ages, so laws may have changed but it is the child protection authorities who are getting the blame, and I'm not excusing them in any way, but everyone who was in the vicinity seems to be backing off and saying "Nothing to do with me".
 
Splitlink said:
................... but everyone who was in the vicinity seems to be backing off and saying "Nothing to do with me".
Click to expand...

This is one of the most worrying aspects of this affair. Gordon brown dismissed it as "party politics" when it was first raised in Parliament by Cameron. Later that day, Balls (what an appropriate name) became very concerned and gave it all the public urgency etc etc.

There is a great danger of over-reaction but that goes with the territory. It may be guessing, but I find it hard to believe that a proper doctor's examination would miss those sort of injuries - so what kind of examination was it?

This is so serious that a complete change at haringey is needed - after all, they've got form haven't they? And it's no good saying that it's a difficult / deprived area - it's haringey's job to deal with it. If they didn't have sufficient resources and government was stifling them, why didn't they say? And why did they slap an injunction on the whistleblower?

It all stinks, and especially of politics. In anywhere other than Quangos / government organisations / local government, heads would have rolled ages ago. I would have thought that anyone with any kind of moral conscience would have gone long ago.
 
Here is a contreversial idea for society to determine the distribution of the social cake.

The elderly are increasingly supported in elderly peoples homes consuming a large part of council budgets. This problem along with pension crises is likely to get considerably worse in the next 20 years. In some cases it takes a minimum of two nurses to care for one elderly immobile / handicapped individual. Quality of life for these elderly people seem to be in and out of bed and sit around watching TV.

% of money spent on the elderly is considerably higher than what is given to look after young children.

If the elderly are not supported by their off-spring is it not a great burden for society supporting such people who's quality of life at 80+ is considerably restricted?

This concept of prolonging life using science to the point that any individual is a breathing vegetable on a bed or armchair is one that can not be sustained by society. If one has personal wealth and means all very well.

I feel the whole concept of life has to be addressed. Stupid bureaucrats even make it a crime to tank your self with the help of a loved one!!! :-0 What freaking right does the judicial process have over my sad existence of life? :mad: My whole ****ing existence belongs to some **** heads in social services yet no one is accountable or takes responsibility for my existence. :mad: A very big contradiction?

Hence, poor vulnerable incapacitated people have to go to Switzerland to be able to die humanely.

Other side of coin is lets spend a fortune and cause suffering to loved ones looking after a severly handicapped person who wishes to cease to exist. :mad:

I reckon where any individual reaches an incapicated state such that they can not bath or go to the toilet by them selves is ready for the far side. Unless they or their families can look after them then they should be retired to sleep... (On a personal note when I get to a ripe old age and I can't wipe my own **** this is no doubt what I will be doing with my current frame of mind. )

If people can retire and stop working then no reason why they shouldn't retire to eternal rest, sleep and peace. :idea:

Vikings used to jump off a cliff when they were no longer fit to fight in wars as it would bring dishonour to their family. They were not too far wrong about being a burden on their tribal existence.

Placing so much emphasis on bureaucrats and politics to deliver an impossible solution when no one is prepared to pay taxes is also just shovelling crap and nonsense without taking the difficult decisions.

Not doable/viable/profitable imho.

That Fergy royal tramp also recently did a program about orphans and handicapped children in Romania and Turkey recently. Really don't know why the silly tart who probably hasn't seen any hard ship in her life doesn't start with our desparate children at home.

Similar to turn of the century around 1900s I do believe we are at the cusp of a new era and many other fundamental changes will dawn on us in the 21st century.
 
I believe that London is getting too overpopulated to be able to police itself properly. To do so would cost the taxpayer more than is politically viable. Understaffing is the complaint of every service, these days----my city is not much different on that score.

Nevertheless, my view is that the first whistleblower should have been the doctor to the police. The police should have got a searchwarrant and gone there with the child protection people and demanded to see the child.

This doctor's report was crucial to get things rolling and he failed. If he did report it, then the police failed. We would not be listening, then, to "the passing the buck excuses" from other branches of social security.

Fergy, probably, did not think that such things could happen in the UK. I. myself, am not so naive but I am shocked that the authorities were so lax. That, in itself, is unfair. It was the doctor who failed that child.

I have a professional qualification. I would never have committed any act that may have resulted in a Court of Enquiry taking that away from me, regardless of what my employers may have thought.

If the doctor was so worried, he would have said "Sorry, boss, but I could lose my qualification to practice if I don't report this".

Split
 
Oooh good, a witch hunt.

This sort of thing has always happened and always will happen. Some people are *****, basically.
 
Right, but if we do not nip it in the bud, at once, we will not have the service that we pay for.
Brown seems to find the people to lend him the money to bail fhe financial services out andto fight a war in two countries, so he should be able to financially support to defend defenceless citizens of all ages.

Or, no?
 
Splitlink said:
Brown seems to find the people to lend him the money to bail fhe financial services out andto fight a war in two countries, so he should be able to financially support to defend defenceless citizens of all ages.

Or, no?
Click to expand...

Babies dont have a vote, why would a politician be the least bit concerned about there welfare ?

For those who think I'm just being cynical, I suggest that they read about Michael Fallon MP at the link below. In brief, a child died in the care of a nursery of which he was managing director, despite serious shortcomings being found by OFSTED inspectors, the nursery was allowed to continue operating as closing the facility would have serious consequences for Fallon's career.

This report alone quite clearly indicates that OFSTED believed that protecting the reputation of a politician was far more important than protecting the safety of children

BBC - Press Office - Whistleblower reveals failings in care of under-fives

Unless your a floating voter in a marginal seat, no MP in the UK will give a flying **** about you're welfare.
 
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Splitlink said:
Brown seems to find the people to lend him the money to bail fhe financial services out andto fight a war in two countries, so he should be able to financially support to defend defenceless citizens of all ages.
Click to expand...

The billions spent on the wars as well as bailing out bankers and shareholders who don't need to be bailed out remains in stark contrast to the few million allocated to social services.

I was always against the stupid wars. Was incredellous at the lies told and the daily suffering inflicted by the ****ed up bush and blair administration on innocent civilians. I'm bewildered still to this day as to what the **** we are doing fighting these wars.

I concur it's all about the political voice and allocation of scarce resources to people who have it all... :mad:

I'm glad some of the spotlight is turning to lawyers and the legal profession.

An internal inquiry by Haringey's Local Safeguarding Children Board (LSCB) blamed legal advice taken a week before the baby's death for the decision not to take him into care.

John Suddaby, head of legal services at Haringey, has admitted it was "of concern" this advice was given.

Shadow children's Secretary Michael Gove told Sky News he hoped the government inquiry into Baby P's death would examine the whole child welfare system.

"There are two tough questions there," he said.
The boy from Haringey suffered 50 injuries [Pic: Mirrorpix]

"There's a question about whether or not the right judgement was exercised and there's also a question about whether or not the systems, whether or not the legal capacity to take children into care is right at the moment."


Still ultimately in my view this has nothing to do with bureaucratic organisations but everything to do with the family or lack of it.
 
Atilla said:
The billions spent on the wars as well as bailing out bankers and shareholders who don't need to be bailed out remains in stark contrast to the few million allocated to social services.

I was always against the stupid wars. Was incredellous at the lies told and the daily suffering inflicted by the ****ed up bush and blair administration on innocent civilians. I'm bewildered still to this day as to what the **** we are doing fighting these wars.

I concur it's all about the political voice and allocation of scarce resources to people who have it all... :mad:

I'm glad some of the spotlight is turning to lawyers and the legal profession.

An internal inquiry by Haringey's Local Safeguarding Children Board (LSCB) blamed legal advice taken a week before the baby's death for the decision not to take him into care.

John Suddaby, head of legal services at Haringey, has admitted it was "of concern" this advice was given.

Shadow children's Secretary Michael Gove told Sky News he hoped the government inquiry into Baby P's death would examine the whole child welfare system.

"There are two tough questions there," he said.
The boy from Haringey suffered 50 injuries [Pic: Mirrorpix]

"There's a question about whether or not the right judgement was exercised and there's also a question about whether or not the systems, whether or not the legal capacity to take children into care is right at the moment."


Still ultimately in my view this has nothing to do with bureaucratic organisations but everything to do with the family or lack of it.
Click to expand...

I did say, at the time that I favoured the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan although, not to be unfair to myself, either, I, also, said that such action should not be taken against such overwhelming public objection.

Blair had two years to go before his elections, which he won, incidentally, but I knew that Aznar, with people out in the streets, protesting in their hundreds of thousands, had lost the next election because of it. He had only a year to go.

What saddens me is that our returning soldiers do not get the attention that they should.

Compared with the trillions the wars have cost, their welfare is a drop in the bucket to the state and their mental health care is a disgrace.

Anyway, the above is beside the point of this thread, except that such wars make us broke, in debt and unable to properly take care of our social services at home.

Your last sentence is the nub of this problem, but it is society, in general, and modern political thought that has brought it about.
 
Peter was taken into care but was taken out only after 5 weeks as SS wanted to send him back home.

The whole affair stinks, who failed baby Peter? Well besides the animals he had as parents every single person who came in contact and did nothing or not enough and did not fight harder for him.

I cannot in anyway believe people could say they did not know when he had his finger tips sliced off with a stanley knife and his nails pulled out, bite marks on his head from where the step dad trained the dogs to bite him and the other horrific 48 injuries I won't go into detail here, sick!

What breaks my heart is the last time his social worker saw him the mother had propped him into his pram, he had a broken spine, cut of fingertips,he was not far from death,the social worker said "Hi fella" and he smiled at her.
 
You've told me more than I knew already and that was bad enough.

My kids are in their thirties and forties, now. I have photos of them as toddlers and I ask myself, how could anyone do that to happy kids like them? It's unimaginable.
 
Its a really sad case and shows serious short comings in the social care system. However, if a parent cannot be trusted with their child, who can?

Cases like these get a lot of air time as they create a lot of public interest. But there are maybe far bigger tragedies occurring in the world that we never even hear about. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

As Lenin said - one death is a tragedy, many are a statistic.
 
JTrader said:
...................

But there are maybe far bigger tragedies occurring in the world that we never even hear about.
Click to expand...

Absolutely true. But you have to make a start somewhere. Our politicians are good at lecturing the rest of the world .......... ... they should clean up at home first.
 
This case has happened at home. If the Brits can't do anything about what happens abroad, they have an opportunity to get something done here, and if people can't clean their own messes up what chance do kids abroad have?
 
0007 said:
Absolutely true. But you have to make a start somewhere. Our politicians are good at lecturing the rest of the world .......... ... they should clean up at home first.
Click to expand...

True.

& In this case it does seem pretty obvious that the child was being mistreated.
 
JTrader said:
Its a really sad case and shows serious short comings in the social care system. However, if a parent cannot be trusted with their child, who can?
Click to expand...

I agree that you cant really legislate for the minority of cases involving complete nutters, and personally, I wouldnt really wish to see the state granted additional power to interfere in people's lives. Current legislation is quite sufficiant to deal with cases such as baby P, if correctly applied.

As you say, its the serious shortcomings in the system that need to be addressed. The main problem is that those in authority in this case, the prime minister, various government ministers, leaders of haringay council, head of social services, the police, and the individual social workers involved are 100% CONVINCED that the service they offer is second to none (and they'll happily show you a graph top prove it). They simply do not acknowledge that there's a problem, any enquiry will in all likelihood be a whitewash, resources that should be directed at front line services will in fact end up in the pocket of the friends of some bent PM acting in a consultancy capacity to produce a report stating everythings fine, at worst some social worker type will lose their job, only to be replaced by a cheaper, more compliant, and less experienced version, and the cycle continues.

The first step to sorting any problem out is acknowledging that the problem exists, unfortunately we seam to have a government in absolute denial, wot credit crunch ?, wot knife crime ? I guess you cant blame politicians as the electorate have a tendancy to shoot the messanger when its bad news. As JTrader's sig says, its time to get a grip
 
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