At £1000+ Per Point, Which SB Company is Best for Intra-day Trading ?

[tightstops]

were talking about liquid currencies here 100,000,000 on either side. the said £1000 per pip amounts to about 20,000,000 why anyone would ask a bookie to get the best price you can and come back to me whatever youve got is what ill take and having to wait for the priviledge is beyond me. most ecns will take that on the pip you hit to get in or out. echoing laptop betting that much with the bookies is just asking for trouble.

 

[SpreadBunny]

were talking about liquid currencies here 100,000,000 on either side. the said £1000 per pip amounts to about 20,000,000 why anyone would ask a bookie to get the best price you can and come back to me whatever youve got is what ill take and having to wait for the priviledge is beyond me. most ecns will take that on the pip you hit to get in or out. echoing laptop betting that much with the bookies is just asking for trouble.

I thought of starting another thread but I thought I might slip this in here...

So what stake size does one should stop betting with sb firms? :cheesy:

 

[jkplay]

Good post. My only comment would be that what you see as a downside, I see as an upside, even if you really trust your broker. At big size, I'd want complete visibility on how my order was going into the market, and that's best achieved by doing it yourself.

Correct me if im wrong but by specifying maximum and minimum entry levels are you not working the order yourself to some extent, only over the phone instead of online??

JK

 

[tightstops]

I thought of starting another thread but I thought I might slip this in here...

So what stake size does one should stop betting with sb firms? :cheesy:

if trading intraday i think a better question would be do i have enough money in my spread betting account to open a futures or ecn account. an enormous edge would have been accumulated before a trade is even made

 

[SpreadBunny]

if trading intraday i think a better question would be do i have enough money in my spread betting account to open a futures or ecn account. an enormous edge would have been accumulated before a trade is even made

I know tightstops but providing that you have minimum required amount of £5000+ or even better six figure capital, should one stop betting with sb firms at £1000pp or before e.g. over £500, £800 etc? Is £1000 the big number, the resistance level? :cheesy:

 

[TheMoneyMachine]

leu04jam you clearly arent aware we are talking about cmc spread betting. the moneymachine im assuming you are and i can assure you you will not get normal execution unless at that paticular level they give you a different platform or some other device that avoids the punter being requoted every other trade. just to clarify being requoted frequently is abnormal execution.
the last part that you seem to have misunderstood was a suggestion to trader33 (sorry cant be sure on who started the thread now)to encourage his backers to rethink trading that kind of size (if he trades at market) with a spread betting company paticularly cmc

tightstops

I am referring to CMC Markets and when you trade considerable relative size on any instrument execution difficulties are inevitable and execution becomes a strategy per se. Implementing minute position sizes your ignorance on the subject is expected.

Incidently a number of contributors to this thread assume that because they take outright directionals (because thats all they know) everybody else does. The spread betting vehicle has now become an essential tool to many pros for offsetting risk and the position sizes referred to in this thread are becoming common place.

Regards

TMM

 

[tightstops]

ok allow me display my ignorance a little further.
i want to buy the equivelent of £1000 a pip on a liquid currency im the sort of customer companys are eager to have trade with them i am a high volume trader. some companies will arrange for quotes on my screen to be updated throughout the day and allow me at the click of a button to take one of those quotes whenever i choose. i have nothing to worry about except implementing my strategy.
other companies arrange for quotes on my screen to be updated throughout the day but applying my strategy is a bit more complicated. im required to phone up and ask someone to buy or sell he then tries to get my position on while i wait around hoping i get roughly what i want he then comes back to me with a position in the ballpark of where i wanted. im happy but am hoping one day the market doesnt move quickly because then it might get a bit problematic. im also hoping we remain good friends in case anything goes wrong in the future with these trades since it would be awfully easy for him to say it was my fault and pocket some of my cash. but since i will not be taxed on any winnings this must be the best option.
someone wishes to open an account can you please display the phone number for customer services thecmcmachine?
thanks

 

[tightstops]

I know tightstops but providing that you have minimum required amount of £5000+ or even better six figure capital, should one stop betting with sb firms at £1000pp or before e.g. over £500, £800 etc? Is £1000 the big number, the resistance level? :cheesy:

if intraday trading or not using orders i think theres just too many reasons why direct access is better. why take on the extra stress involved at any stake? longer term bets with the tax free aspect obviously bring in other considerations.

 

[jkplay]

Incidently a number of contributors to this thread assume that because they take outright directionals (because thats all they know) everybody else does. The spread betting vehicle has now become an essential tool to many pros for offsetting risk and the position sizes referred to in this thread are becoming common place.

Hi,

Good post - is that paragraph just a long way of explaining people use spreadbetting to hedge large physical positions, because that wouldn't make any difference in regards to them being able to cater for big size?

JK

 

[grantx]

TMM,

“spread betting vehicle has now become an essential tool to many pros for offsetting risk”.

Could you give an example?

Why use SB to hedge and not the appropriate exchange/market?

Grant.

 

[stevespray]

were talking about liquid currencies here 100,000,000 on either side. the said £1000 per pip amounts to about 20,000,000 why anyone would ask a bookie to get the best price you can and come back to me whatever youve got is what ill take and having to wait for the priviledge is beyond me. most ecns will take that on the pip you hit to get in or out. echoing laptop betting that much with the bookies is just asking for trouble.

IMHO liquidity is not the only issue (from the quoting firm’s perspective). Liquidity may be fine if a client wants to open or close a position when the market is fairly flat which, in terms of currencies, it is most of the time. However, this changes drastically if clients wish to trade when the market is ‘on the move’ so to speak. Prices in the ‘real’ market may only be at one particular level for a fraction of a second. This presents a real financial problem for the bookmakers. If you look at something very liquid like GBPUSD then you will still see very sharp moves of between 20 and 40 pips every day. Even on a 1 minute chart these bars can be 20+ pips in length. These sharp moves are generally stop runs which behave like a series of toppling domino’s (ie a series of stops are triggered and fired into the market which in turn causes the market to move further which in turn causes more stops to trigger and so the cycle repeats itself until all the stops are cleared out and hence why we get these sharp sudden moves). This is exactly the kind of reason why so many people lose money when trying to trade FX – they effectively get caught on the wrong side of the clever money. They place stops in such logical positions that you can almost guarantee that the market will trip them.
Given that these sharp moves are mostly ‘stop runs’ it follows that there is a higher likelihood that the firm’s clients also have stops there and this is where the problems can arise. If you were a large client and you had a stop placed in such a situation then it would simply not be financially viable for the firm to simply fill your stop at the level stated (assuming that they have laid off some / all of your position into an underlying market) since, by the time they react to your stop being triggered and fill your order, there is a greater than likely chance that the price would have worsened dramatically in the underlying market and this would mean that they would be taking a loss on their hedge of your position. So, in simple terms, you personal trading style would be the biggest impacting factor. If you are happy opening and closing positions in a ‘quiet market condition’ then you will probably find that they accommodate you fairly reasonably. Likewise if your strategy is to ‘sell into strength’ or ‘buy into weakness’ – this is beneficial to an intermediate market maker. If however your style is apposed to that, ie selling as soon as the market starts to makes a sharp down move or buying if the market makes a large up move, then you will almost certainly have problems since your ‘fills’ would be a) more ‘effective’ than the real market offers (given rapid market movements), and b) the firm would have little chance to hedge you without locking in a guaranteed loss.

The firm would therefore have to evaluate your trading style to determine how ‘cost effective’ you would be as a client. I know a number of clients who have been asked not to trade or have been told to trade ‘closer to the market’ (direct access) as their trading style is not cost effective for the intermediate market maker.

Steve.

 

[TheMoneyMachine]

Hi,

Good post - is that paragraph just a long way of explaining people use spreadbetting to hedge large physical positions, because that wouldn't make any difference in regards to them being able to cater for big size?

JK

jkplay

I don't understand your question, could you please clarify?

Regards

TMM

 

[TheMoneyMachine]

ok allow me display my ignorance a little further.
i want to buy the equivelent of £1000 a pip on a liquid currency im the sort of customer companys are eager to have trade with them i am a high volume trader. some companies will arrange for quotes on my screen to be updated throughout the day and allow me at the click of a button to take one of those quotes whenever i choose. i have nothing to worry about except implementing my strategy.
other companies arrange for quotes on my screen to be updated throughout the day but applying my strategy is a bit more complicated. im required to phone up and ask someone to buy or sell he then tries to get my position on while i wait around hoping i get roughly what i want he then comes back to me with a position in the ballpark of where i wanted. im happy but am hoping one day the market doesnt move quickly because then it might get a bit problematic. im also hoping we remain good friends in case anything goes wrong in the future with these trades since it would be awfully easy for him to say it was my fault and pocket some of my cash. but since i will not be taxed on any winnings this must be the best option.
someone wishes to open an account can you please display the phone number for customer services thecmcmachine?
thanks

tightstops

CMC Markets are regulated by the FSA and have to work within a legal framework additionally they are a significant player in the brokage industry with institutional/bank clients. The nonsense your alluding too simply does not happen, much like many of the spread betting myths. I rarely use spread betting vehicles but they certainly have there uses. Also if your suggesting i am affiliated with them in anyway i can ensure you that i am not, but i certainly wish i was!

Regards

TMM

 

[TheMoneyMachine]

TMM,

“spread betting vehicle has now become an essential tool to many pros for offsetting risk”.

Could you give an example?

Why use SB to hedge and not the appropriate exchange/market?

Grant.

Grant

Mainly for tax efficency, hedging is an exspensive risk management tool.

Spread betting vehicles provide an excellent facility for managing exchange rate exposure cost effectively.

Regards

TMM

 

[TheGoose]

Hi Guys

I thought it might be useful if i jumped on board here.

I work at Spreadex. I suggest you look at jkplay's posts on this thread as he seems to be talking sense. Why would we want to annoy or lose a client trading in such good size?
The more the client is satisfied, the likelier he will continue.

Let's say we charge 3pts on the Dow future on a fill on fill basis. £3000 minus our costs on the open and the same on the close - that is good business. Even if the client didn't want to work orders we would happily take up to £500 per point on the phone.

Looking at the title of the this thread, it might not be the best solution for intra-day but it would still be the same deal, unless the trade was run to expiry in which case there is no closing spread. This is a common method for our large indices traders, and can sometimes be a headache for us on the unwind!!

Hope this helps
Ian

 

[JTrader]

At £1000+ Per Point, Which SB Company is Best for Intra-day Trading ?

To come up with an answer to this question, personally, I'd want to interview in depth each of the SB CO. "candidates". See if any seemed convincingly trustworthy, and if so, in what ways. Drawing up a list of strengths v's weaknesses, grey areas etc. for each individual SB co.......Seperating the wheat from the er - chav's.

 

[tightstops]

the good old days

when making a trade was exhilirating:
click/buy, we cant give you that price how about this one 3 pips worse? no thanks
click/buy, 5 second delay, am i filled arent i (this is so exciting) we cant give you that price how about this one 3 pips worse? no thanks
click/buy, 5 second delay, (ooh im 1 pip in profit already) we cant give you that price how about this one 4 pips worse, ok (click) ill take it. sorry not filled.
no wonder tradings boring these days if i want to buy i click and am filled in a fraction of a second and if i want to sell it 2 seconds later im out in a fraction of a second - wheres the fun in that?
im thinking of going back to cmc for day trading they give you twice the bang for your buck not only are you gambling on the market but also whether youll have a position after youve decided to take a trade.
fsa know the score theyre not going to get involved here people are having to much fun

 

[grantx]

Themoneymachine,

CMC may be authorised by the FSA but spreadbetting per se does not fall under remit of the FSA.

To repeat, can you give an example of a firm hedging via a spreadbet?

“managing exchange rate exposure cost effectively”. If it can hedge effectively, why not initiate the position via SB?

I also question your assertion re tax efficiency – “hedging” , ie insurance would, I suggest, be a legitimate business expense and therefore not subject to tax. If the hedge generates a profit (possibly through infrequent maintenance of appropriate ratio) the opposite side will suffer an offsetting loss, resulting in a zero net, hence no tax due.

Then Goose,

What are the largest sizes your company takes? How do you hedge/offset the risk?


Grant.

 

[jkplay]

when making a trade was exhilirating:
click/buy, we cant give you that price how about this one 3 pips worse? no thanks
click/buy, 5 second delay, am i filled arent i (this is so exciting) we cant give you that price how about this one 3 pips worse? no thanks
click/buy, 5 second delay, (ooh im 1 pip in profit already) we cant give you that price how about this one 4 pips worse, ok (click) ill take it. sorry not filled.
no wonder tradings boring these days if i want to buy i click and am filled in a fraction of a second and if i want to sell it 2 seconds later im out in a fraction of a second - wheres the fun in that?
im thinking of going back to cmc for day trading they give you twice the bang for your buck not only are you gambling on the market but also whether youll have a position after youve decided to take a trade.
fsa know the score theyre not going to get involved here people are having to much fun

Judging by your name I think it is safe to say you use ''tight stops'' and have come together with various forms of conspiracy theories in regards to spreadbetting and the intentions of the firms.

Some companies give more re quotes than others - that is a fact - but if you lag on a price and the market moves how do they know you haven't got another feed watching the prices move in your favor before agreeing to deal and just printing pips through them?

Your argument belongs on another thread and you clearly have no experience in trading large size - this is a different subject and has been answered quite thoroughly on this thread.

JK

 

[jkplay]

Themoneymachine,

CMC may be authorised by the FSA but spreadbetting per se does not fall under remit of the FSA.

To repeat, can you give an example of a firm hedging via a spreadbet?

“managing exchange rate exposure cost effectively”. If it can hedge effectively, why not initiate the position via SB?

You can hedge future currency exposure, shares without having to sell and pay tax for the current year, broad portfolio's via index's, corn growing in your field... the list goes on. It is all tax free and the margin requirements are the lowest around.

I also question your assertion re tax efficiency – “hedging” , ie insurance would, I suggest, be a legitimate business expense and therefore not subject to tax. If the hedge generates a profit (possibly through infrequent maintenance of appropriate ratio) the opposite side will suffer an offsetting loss, resulting in a zero net, hence no tax due.

Yes that is the purpose of hedging, to lock in a current market price and as one generates loss the other makes the same amount of profit.

JK