Active day and swing traders

Euro_d said:
...I have a set of rules that I stick rigidly to, based on spread, price, stop, and % of the bank. That way I always risk the same amount on each trade.... Dave

I think you and I do exactly the same thing for money management :) . The maximum amount I risk per trade is 2% of my trading capital. I'll probably be reducing this temporarily to 1% in the light of my recent poor performance, until I've sorted myself out.

Cheers,

Mark
 
Euro_d said:
Hi Mark,
...Shorter term (my thing) I cannot see anything that would tempt me. Look at MACD and also the trend line, sorry, it is not too clear. If we got a break of that lower trend line say a break above 95 and a more positive MACD picture then I would be with you...

Best of luck
Dave
Dave,

Sorry I didn't spot your response earlier too! I don't quite understand your message. Did you notice that I was proposing to SHORT this one, not going long: it looks like the uptrend the charts show from 75-ish in May to 97.5 in mid-Aug is breaking down now. I'll probably be going short on it, half-size, tomorrow.

BTW, I quite agree that it wouldn't serve any purpose to stop trading but reducing trade size would allow me to sort myself out.

Thanks,

Mark
 
thank u euro d and marben, i would like the formula but what is ph? sorry a bit dumb on using my l/top, i have read so much in the last few weeks my brains r cumming out of my ears! i need to find stuff that is in the lamens terms, some times just find it hard to understand, i do keep going back to ftsebeater thread thats bin really good for me but some times i think i read 2 much as before i got in tradeing i never red anything at all apart from page 3! .......but iam up just over 40% on my finns more luck than judgement but that can soon change...
 
Sorry Mark, of course you did not understand, I was talking crap! I missed the point that you were thinking short.
In that case I agree, unless there is an upside break as I mentioned.

Sorry, busy day! Not really an excuse but....

I have closed CNE for a very nice 23.
The rest as this morning. Had a very small foray into UKX but not at my pivots and of course it failed!

Re you money management, I trade 3% and limit my risk to 3%. I also halved my stake in late spring, back to normal after sorting myself out.

Cheers all
Dave
 
2 blankets said:
thank u euro d and marben, i would like the formula but what is ph? sorry a bit dumb on using my l/top, i have read so much in the last few weeks my brains r cumming out of my ears! i need to find stuff that is in the lamens terms, some times just find it hard to understand, i do keep going back to ftsebeater thread thats bin really good for me but some times i think i read 2 much as before i got in tradeing i never red anything at all apart from page 3! .......but iam up just over 40% on my finns more luck than judgement but that can soon change...
Hi Bob,

The formula I use is quite simple: 1. set your maximum loss per trade, call this M (for the sake of example let's suppose it's £200). 2. Estimate distance from your entry point to your stop loss, call this D. Your maximum stake is then M/D. For example, if you plan to open a long trade in SBRY @ 283.5 with a stop of 275, then D=8.5. If M is £200 then the stake/1p movement is 200/8.5 = £23.53, rounding down gives £20.

HTH,

Mark
 
Euro_d said:
Yes Bob, welcome.
I too have a Finspreads account and rarely use it. Reason is I dont like their spreads and they (like IG) do not honour their stops unless you pay even more for controlled risk.
Good luck and welcome
Dave

I haven't had that experience with Finspreads. In fact, I've been stopped out on a spike that went a long way below my stop level. The spreads are OK, provided that one trades the FT100 shares, although I must admit that I have had no experience with anyone else.
Nevertheless, I nearly always trade UK stocks without stops. I would not trade the US markets or any indices without them, though. The risk is too much for me.

In very nasty situations I doubt that stops are of much use with any broker, especially by telephone- no one answers it!

Split
 
Splitlink said:
...Nevertheless, I nearly always trade UK stocks without stops. I would not trade the US markets or any indices without them, though. The risk is too much for me.

In very nasty situations I doubt that stops are of much use with any broker, especially by telephone- no one answers it!

Split
Hi Split,

I think this statement must come with a huge public health warning, especially for newbies. To trade without stops you a) need enormous discipline; and b) must never leave your trading screen. Without a stop, you could potentially lose thousands whilst you go to get a cup of tea (I know, this is rare but I'd rather not take the chance). Another factor to consider is trade size/duration: I guess if you're working with long duration trades (>1 month) using small stakes, you could get away with it.

I must admit that I don't use stops myself before 9am (due to unrealistic quotes on low volumes) but if a trade goes past my stop during that time a very tough decision must be taken on whether the move is just a spike or whether to close immediately at whatever price I can get. Overnight, of course, you're quite right - a stop is not going to help you if the price opens sharply against you in the morning. To ameliorate this, if a trade is moving against me and is close to my stop just before close of business, I may close the trade then, rather than risk it going past my stop the following morning.

Something else to bear in mind: in the case of a sharp market move against you with a stop in place, you are likely to get a better price than if you try to close the trade manually at the same time. If the price is moving fast, with a non-negligible trade, you'd get a constant stream of requotes & have to decide whether to accept the requote or not - a tough discipline.

In my experience, with deal4free, the price I get using a stop is always better than the one I get executing a trade manually at the same time. It can be very useful to deliberately enter and exit trades using stops too. When stopped into a long trade, I find that I tend to get the BID price at the time the trade executed (or at the ASK price for a short trade), i.e. the spread is avoided! D4F (and I imagine this also applies to other SB firms) doesn't, however, let you place stops very close to the current price, so this technique only works if you place the stop some time before the price reaches your stop-in or stop-out level. On the rare occasions I've queried stop execution prices, D4F have advised me that the stop is executed at the price at which a quantity of real shares equivalent to the trade size actually traded. When I've checked this against LSE Level2 data, the executed stop price has always agreed with this. This policy avoids being stopped out as a result of "quote spikes", where no shares are really traded at the quoted price. It also means that your stop out price is the same as the one you'd get if you placed the order using direct market access (DMA). In the vast majority of cases, the stop is executed at the price that I set.

Best regards,

Mark
 
BP News

An article in WSJ tonight reports that BP is losing 175,000 b/d of production in the Gulf of Mexico and that it is likely to take weeks to restore this, due to damage to pipelines & structure needed to move it ashore.

I don't think this news is in the price yet.

Good trading,

Mark
 
Stops

I must add my bit for the benefit of our new colleague who admits he is new to trading.
In all textbooks, all advice boards and almost everyone who trades for a living the first thing to do before entering a trade is to know where you will leave it.
I would never enter a trade without a stop, never it is simply too dangerous. Certainly for anyone who is trading short term as I understand we all are here.
A trade closed early is significantly better than an uncontrolled loss.
I respect Split, fine, you probably have more experience than me and that is fine as you know the risks,

I am not here to promote any broker but both Mark and I use D4F (I have an IG and Finspreads account too) and for the top 350 shares they are, for me, very good on the accuracy of the close and also as Mark states, the accuracy of the quotes as compared to the underlying market.
I have been looking at CFD's which are promoted as "better" than spreadbetting and have trialled a couple but so far am not convinced and also I have not found any that have tighter spreads than D4F.

However, I also agree that there may be an element of "better the devil you know".

OK, I have sent Bob my risk and stop calculator, if anyone else wants it PM me.

Got to go, markets opening so I need to get ready!
Talk later, good day to all
 
marben said:
An article in WSJ tonight reports that BP is losing 175,000 b/d of production in the Gulf of Mexico and that it is likely to take weeks to restore this, due to damage to pipelines & structure needed to move it ashore.

I don't think this news is in the price yet.

Good trading,

Mark
'morning all,

Opened a small short @ 631 with a tight stop on the back of this at today's open. Not my usual style but risk/reward ratio looks good (the above announcement will knock a few % off BP's profit this year).

Good trading,

Mark
 
Morning all,
OK, a quieter open today.
BP, yep on news I agree, on TA not so sure, probably a quick hit and run, good luck.

For me not much on the radar today, possibly ALEA but not just yet.

Entered PAG long @ 480, SIG @ 108
 
Euro_d said:
Morning all,
OK, a quieter open today.
BP, yep on news I agree, on TA not so sure, probably a quick hit and run, good luck.
...
Absolutely! I'll be out of this one by the end of today (probably around 9am unless it starts moving my way soon)....

In fact I've just closed it @ 631.5 as it looks from Level2 like buyers are starting to flood in, so it looks like any price impact of the news has been taken into account by today's lower opening.

I guess I was a bit optimistic, trying to fade the market in it's largest stock :cheesy:

Best,

Mark
 
marben said:
Hi Split,

I think this statement must come with a huge public health warning, especially for newbies. To trade without stops you a) need enormous discipline; and b) must never leave your trading screen. Without a stop, you could potentially lose thousands whilst you go to get a cup of tea (I know, this is rare but I'd rather not take the chance). Another factor to consider is trade size/duration: I guess if you're working with long duration trades (>1 month) using small stakes, you could get away with it.

I must admit that I don't use stops myself before 9am (due to unrealistic quotes on low volumes) but if a trade goes past my stop during that time a very tough decision must be taken on whether the move is just a spike or whether to close immediately at whatever price I can get. Overnight, of course, you're quite right - a stop is not going to help you if the price opens sharply against you in the morning. To ameliorate this, if a trade is moving against me and is close to my stop just before close of business, I may close the trade then, rather than risk it going past my stop the following morning.

Something else to bear in mind: in the case of a sharp market move against you with a stop in place, you are likely to get a better price than if you try to close the trade manually at the same time. If the price is moving fast, with a non-negligible trade, you'd get a constant stream of requotes & have to decide whether to accept the requote or not - a tough discipline.

In my experience, with deal4free, the price I get using a stop is always better than the one I get executing a trade manually at the same time. It can be very useful to deliberately enter and exit trades using stops too. When stopped into a long trade, I find that I tend to get the BID price at the time the trade executed (or at the ASK price for a short trade), i.e. the spread is avoided! D4F (and I imagine this also applies to other SB firms) doesn't, however, let you place stops very close to the current price, so this technique only works if you place the stop some time before the price reaches your stop-in or stop-out level. On the rare occasions I've queried stop execution prices, D4F have advised me that the stop is executed at the price at which a quantity of real shares equivalent to the trade size actually traded. When I've checked this against LSE Level2 data, the executed stop price has always agreed with this. This policy avoids being stopped out as a result of "quote spikes", where no shares are really traded at the quoted price. It also means that your stop out price is the same as the one you'd get if you placed the order using direct market access (DMA). In the vast majority of cases, the stop is executed at the price that I set.

Best regards,

Mark

Very helpful post. Yes, I do use longer trades- not over a month- but some have lasted 9 days.
I keep my stake in the same proportion as my normal portfolio, i.e. 2000 shares owned equals
20 pounds per penny rise which would equivalent to 20 pounds staked. That's why you will rarely find me trading more than two shares at a time. That way a loss is in proportion to the portfolio.

Split
 
marben said:
...I must admit that I don't use stops myself before 9am (due to unrealistic quotes on low volumes) but if a trade goes past my stop during that time a very tough decision must be taken on whether the move is just a spike or whether to close immediately at whatever price I can get...
Funnily enough, this situation has arisen this morning on my ULVR short. Closed manually @ 568 this morning, my stop level being @ 566. Opened @ 556 on 5/9.

Hope I might be able to have another crack at this one from a higher level, if the indicators are still right.

MB
 
marben said:
An article in WSJ tonight reports that BP is losing 175,000 b/d of production in the Gulf of Mexico and that it is likely to take weeks to restore this, due to damage to pipelines & structure needed to move it ashore.

I don't think this news is in the price yet.

Good trading,

Mark

mornin'all

perhaps the market thought it was shell :LOL: they were off over 40 at one point yesterday and another 9 today. btw what's the difference between rdsa and rdsb?

nothing new today - short levels on pru and aal now at around 510 and 1432 - looking increasingly iffy. rbs appearing on the horizon as another possible short candidate.

good trading

jon
 
Splitlink said:
Very helpful post. Yes, I do use longer trades- not over a month- but some have lasted 9 days.
I keep my stake in the same proportion as my normal portfolio, i.e. 2000 shares owned equals
20 pounds per penny rise which would equivalent to 20 pounds staked. That's why you will rarely find me trading more than two shares at a time. That way a loss is in proportion to the portfolio.

Split
Thanks split,

Yes, that would make sense. I think your trading style is relatively unusual and that most posters on here are heavily leveraged (like me). Under those circumstances, one's perspective on stops is rather different :eek: . BTW, for successful trades, my trading timeframe is 2-4 weeks (but I'm reviewing my techniques at the moment). Unsuccessful ones usually close rather more quickly than that :cheesy:

BTW for any newbies it is worth bearing in mind how many shares you are really trading in, to help you assess risk. E.G. a £50/p stake means 5000 shares.

Best regards,

Mark
 
Euro_d said:
I must add my bit for the benefit of our new colleague who admits he is new to trading.
I respect Split, fine, you probably have more experience than me and that is fine as you know the risks,

Thanks for that undeserved, but diplomatic, comment! My post 795 will show you how to turn a profit into a loss and it is me, Split, that did it!

I'm still short EMA and, this morning, shorted SCTN at 475.

Split
 
Splitlink said:
Thanks for that undeserved, but diplomatic, comment! My post 795 will show you how to turn a profit into a loss and it is me, Split, that did it!

I'm still short EMA and, this morning, shorted SCTN at 475.

Split
It was actually meant as a compliment Sir.
BTW, are you in Spain too? Where?
 
I think ale and bob as well as the rest of us have an issue "how do we find the stocks"?

This is how I do it:
I use Sharescope that is quick and easy (also gives reporting dates) and their EoD datafeed is quick and cheap.
I then export the data into Omnitrader to analyse. Have used this for a few years and am reasonably satisfied with the results.
For the benefit of those who dont know, Sharescope cannot filter on tech analysis so is useless in this respect.
OT can but initially it is quite difficult to work with. However tech support is in UK and good. They give you strategies that are designed for the UK top 350 (personally I only trade the top 250). I use OT 2005 but OT 2004 is almost the same and can be found for sale quite cheaply, I might even have the CD.

Using a package like OT you can filter stocks based on various criteria and then have a look at the (very good) charts to make a final decision. I personally set multiple strategies and compare the results, both for signals and backtesting result accuracy.

I have played with 2click (see thread on this subject) and am yet unconvinced however, early tests seem promising. I think their software is more or less based on MACD. Charting is rubbish and the SW is linked only to Yahoo finance EoD feed so you have to pay for another feed.

I am trying to learn Trade station that is the bees knees is very flexible and efficient with excellent charting, filters and probably the most extensive portfolio of strategies. But it is very difficult to learn!

Finally, I am also trying to find a way of using OT or TS to identify Ross hooks (see thread on this subject) which, in the few that I have found, have been VERY effective at spotting trend reversals.

Finally the case for a stand alone charting package has been discussed elsewhere as there are now many superb on-line charting packages, even D4F. However, their limitation is that you cannot (as yet) scan a number of stocks to find those that fit a strategy so in my opinion one still needs a stand alone package.

Sorry to ramble but I wanted to offer the alternatives that I have tested for finding the stocks that may move.
 
Last edited:
OK. Short RSA @ 93 as price has dipped below yesterday's low. Now using reduced size trades, while I review my tactics.

Current position: short EMG, RSA
 
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