“Despite your order being valid at the time it was submitted there was sufficient movement on our order book while you order was being routed to a dealer for the dealer to consider the price incorrect by the time he came to review your order”.
'So they have admitted that the reason for my order being refused is directly due to the market having moved while I was in the queue.'
But Steve that's the limitation of a the queueing system. You have to accept it. Pop and drop or pop and flop, moves will have everyone running to cover their positions, knowing the queueing system, you can't possibly hope to get your ordered filled at the screen price, unless IG categorically guarantee execution at quoted price. That's the issue, do they guarantee price at time of execution irrespective of length of time dealer takes to confirm, can that be, if the interface asks you to wait for confirmation?.
IG state April 03 on release of new trading platform, that 'We have built a dealing platform tailored to the precise needs of the spread betting community. A truly automated system, offering real-time prices and live updates of your open positions. With IG Index real-time means real-time, so the price you see is the price you get.' This is a question of semantics. When they say 'the price you get' they mean the price submitted for confirmation. They are simply talking up the speed of their platform.
At this stage I point out to compliance that according to the T&C this is not grounds for order refusal as the price was in no way invalid at the time it was submitted
there is a prerequisite set out in term 5(4) of the customer agreement which states that in order to reserve the right to refuse my order fault has to be found with that order based on the price of the quote “at the time the order is submitted” and IG have already admitted that the order was refused due to price movements after that time. Of course IG also advertise “The price you see is the price you get” on the website so I would also ask the question “Why would they advertise this ?”, its clearly to promote an aspect of their service which they claim they will provide.
What it actually states in 5.4 is 'If any of the conditions set out in Term 5.5 are not satisfied at the time you offer to enter into or close a Bet we reserve the right not to accept your offer at the level quoted.' It then goes on in 5(b) 'the quote must not be expressed to be given on an
"indicative only" basis;' , 5(d) 'if you obtain the quote electronically via the client pages on our Internet website(s) ... your offer to open or close the Bet must be given whilst the
quote is still valid ;' 5(e) 'the quote must not be manifestly erroneous;'
It also states in 5.3 'Our quoting of a higher and lower figure for each index(whether by telephone, Internet or otherwise) does not constitute an offer by us to enter into a Bet at those levels. A Bet will be initiated by you offering to enter into a Bet with us on an index at the level quoted by us.
We may accept or reject your offer at any time until the Bet has been executed or we have acknowledged that offer has been withdrawn . A Bet will be deemed to have been entered into between us or closed
only when your offer has been received and accepted by us.'
It continues 'Quotes displayed ...are
only indicative and you acknowledge that we
may not accept any offer to open or close a Bet at the level of such indicative quotes'
Steve IG have enough in T&C to cover themselves- The quote on the screen is always indicative until confirmed, only on the phone if a dealer quotes you, is it no longer indicative. When using electronic means, the offer must be given whilst the quote is still valid, since the quote is only ever indicative they can argue the definition of 'valid' until the cows come home. The quote being erroneous allows them the leeway in fast markets where their platform can't keep up.
When they say 'Bet must be given whilst the quote is still valid' , the 'given' part refers to the whole process, including receiving it as far as they are concerned, once received they can act on it. That it why there is a separate clause for electronic orders, it acknowledges the limitation of the trading platform. That's the only way you can make sense of it, while prices are indicative. The price is indicative of what you will get, not absolute.
'Secondly, what you say about prices moving because of other people trading in front of you could be true in the ‘real’ market where every bid & offer has volume also attached to it. Spread betting is slightly different in the fact that its prices are based on an outside market rather than their own market activity.'
Absolutely wrong. In IG's T&C, no.5.1 it states 'The figures we quote will be in respect of the level of our index and not the level of an Underlying Market, and you acknowledge that the level of our Index may be different from the level of an Underlying Market.'
'The prices quoted were perfectly in line with the prices being quoted by the other spreadbet agents at that time.'
5.1 makes that irrelevant.
But Steve this errant trade aside, do you make money with SB, or are your losses down to repeated 'tricks'? You earlier argued the case that you can't make money SBing, are you saying that every profit you had was taken from you in bad faith? Whatever the outcome of this incident, I don't buy the argument that SB firms use tricks to make profit, it just wouldn't pay enough.
But the argument that you cannot make money because SB firms make money by defrauding you, doesn't hold, and is not helpful to new comers. Returning to original thread point, 97% fail to make money for many reasons, but deliberate actions in bad faith by SB firms, are only a small part of the causes. As stated before day trading fast markets has it's inherent dangers, notably the trading platforms short comings. This is the message we should put out to new traders. Having said that Steve, I hope you get a satisfactory resolution, but maybe put this one down to experience.
Looking at some Cantor Index post sent this morning, they talk about 'your trade is executed instantaneously whether online or phone' gave me the impression that when you fire the button that is what you get, but no it is still subject to dealer confirmation, the T&C state that advertised prices are an indication only, though they try to ensure otherwise, speaking with their dealers it seems that CI have upgraded their system and increased the staff to make sure that people are not are kept waiting till Christmas to get their position executed.
Something that had completely slipped my mind until I reread it today, Cantor Index aim to hedge all clients positions in the underlying market, so want you to win. Can anyone contradict me, as my hard copy of Cantor is 2 years old plus? If this is the case, is the whole thread just going round in circles? If it's the case shouldn't we all be trading Cantor, rather than our positions being offset against each other as is the bookmakers practise? Cantor only offer quarterly contracts on the sectors that I trade, but they say this may all change in the coming weeks. I had a slightly confusing conversation with one of the dealers, regarding quote execution, only later did it make sense. I couldn't understand the 'angle' of the conversation, until it dawned on me, she was talking from a position of hedging my trades. Anybody trade with Cantor?
