97% Spread Betters lose their money!

[CityTrader]

“Despite your order being valid at the time it was submitted there was sufficient movement on our order book while you order was being routed to a dealer for the dealer to consider the price incorrect by the time he came to review your order”. So they have admitted that the reason for my order being refused is directly due to the market having moved while I was in the queue.

Steve.

Once again I'm not defending IG, but having been a MM for 18 years I know the way this happens- there are a few calls, you can only make a price to one punter at a time. If the guy in front of you deals in your instrument, then the next price ( which may be to you) may/will change. I know it seems harsh & unfair, but they are a commerical firm. They are not a charity... Of course this might not be the case here, but I can't believe IG are going to renege of a price for a (relatively) small bet.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

stevespray:

Have you written to the Managing Director outlining the situation? He's the only one who can take a decision after weighing up the pros and cons of this situation - all the other employees are by their very nature governed by internal rules, internal politics, and not able by common sense or authority to take a decision. Every company's employees are the same, it's not specific to IG.

I really would have thought that IG's MD must be a bright spark and will immediately realise that the disputed amount of £1,200 is surely not worth the a) hassle b) internal cost of staff in three departments c) regulatory hassles d) bad PR spin-off on bulletin boards e) external legal costs f) re-writing, printing and circulating to every account holder amended T&Cs g) credibility in the industry, etc. After all, his job is to look at the situation from a corporate point of view, which is entirely different from an employee's view of 'them and us'.

I know what I would do if I was in his shoes (size 11, shiny black, with lace-ups, and Church's?) :cheesy:

Actually, what I would do (who's asking me anyway, you wonder) is credit you with the disputed £1,200 graciously. Then make sure that an additional one point in spread is gained from you for the next 14 trades. Therefore each party wins. Happy bunnies all around, and on with business as normal.

 

[dc2000]

Not quite. What happens is the big/decent players/winners deal through a special desk , via a direct number- thus avoiding the telephone jockeys who answer the normal 0800 numbers. The BIG punters ( £500+ per point on idices or £5,000/point individual stocks ) are obviously going to get the service they deserve. Same as a casino - you realy think Mavis from Harlseden would ever sit next to Sheik Camel shagger? naw.... only difference is, the Casino wants you to lose. The SB WANT & NEED their big punters to win.

What a crock of S*** The reason whales are given preferential treatment is because they are prepared to lose big. If I am up 250k at the Bellagio they dont give you a room at the venetian and if you do go home a winner the next time your in NY they will fly you out for free.

With SBs its the same you can get a nice polite chap on the phone to take £500 per pointwhen you start but make 5 consecutive wins of 70 points at £100 per point over the net, you will be asked to telephone trade only which will not be offered at the price on your screen

This is where the SBs and the casino differ if your winning they dont take all the aces out of the shoe.

Sainsbury's do not have to give you the price on the goods they sell but if you got to the checkout and your bill was £100 more because the price had changed you would not shop there again

 

[CityTrader]

What a crock of S****

Oh really. well you carry on dealing with the telephone jockeys. I'll carry on dealing with the special desks, KNOWING that they hedge every single ****ing trade I do. But you know best, right?

 

[Skimbleshanks]

I've pondered what the five-letter word s**** meant. Must have been sense. :cheesy:

 

[dc2000]

No, like many others 90% of my trading goes direct market.

perhaps you could explain to me why an experienced trader such as yourself with £250k+ account would continue to use SBs and effectively give away min £1,500 per trade.

Also could you give the name of the spreadbet company that gives such good service when you win

 

[dc2000]

Sorry skim need to spell check my expletives or maybe get smaller fingers

 

[donaldduke]

dc2000,

A Big trader that uses an SB does so for one reason..
TAX FREE PROFITS!

 

[dc2000]

Sorry donald you are wrong, where trading through SBs, accounts for a substancial portion of your income it is taxed as such.

If you can prove this not to be the case please fell free to post how

 

[CityTrader]

dc2000 where is the tax statute/legislation, that allows the Inland Revenue to interpret the current laws to tax the profits of SB ?
rather than making outrageous statements, perhaps you'd like provide details of any ONE person who has ever paid tax on SB profits? ( or even been allowed to offset SB loses against gains elsewhere?)

 

[donaldduke]

accounts for a substancial portion of your income it is taxed as such.

What a crock of s***

Tax rules dont work like that .. Its either taxable or it isnt the
amount you make doesnt effect the tax status.

Spread betting for your own account is Tax Free pure and simple.

Person A makes 100,000 betting but earns 500K in job
so he doesnt get taxed.

Person B makes 10K in his job but makes 100K betting.
So he gets a 40,000 pound tax bill.

Can you imagine the headlines that would make in the papers!

 

[twiggytwo]

stevespray, I do hope you get a good result with the ongoing dispute with IG. Thank you for being so open about the events, it is helpful to us all to see how you can lose your profit by a SB company moving the goal posts. I use a SB company not IG and have seen the way things work when the market is moving fast and a delay is on the cards. I do try if possible to close positions before the market is open ( I only trade the Dow index ) the advice that Skimbleshanks has given about trying the IG Managing Director is very good . I dont want to go into detail but I had an ongoing problem with a SB Company (3 months) and after many phone calls and e mails to them without result and a lot of bull### from them.
I finally sent an e mail to the Managing Director, he phoned me at home and within 4 days, the problem was resolved to my satisfaction, I still SB with this company . regards twiglet

 

[dc2000]

Ok this last point will be posted come monday, I assume from your replies that you both trade for a living ie trading is your main source of income, I was not suggesting they alter the rules the more money you make. but that the tax free status loses its efficiency if you trade for a living.

I will ask accountant monday and hey would love to be wrong.

Back to the subject, you have still to post the name of the company City trader??

 

[CityTrader]

This sort of cr4p really bugs me. I know it shouldn't , but some newbie making off the cuff comments which he states as fact, and then is unable to provide the smallest piece of back up information. Unless your accountant is a tax specialist which I very much doubt, he'll be unable to corroborate your theory. These matters are decided by a specialist division within the Inland Revenue, and even most City accountants are unable to give a definitive answer, let along some guy working from offices above a chip shop.

 

[donaldduke]

dc2000,

Unless your accountant has read gambling case law he
probably wont be able to help you quickly.

You need to change your perspective a bit:

Tax law doesnt see Spreading betting as regular Trading.

Spread betting is seen as 'Gambling against a Bookmaker'.

According to tax case law gambling against a bookie (even
full time) cant be defined as a job or a vocation. So it cant be taxed like a regular job (even if you do it full time).

Its as if the term 'Professonal gambler' is an oxymoron.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

This subject has been debated over the years on T2W, and it's always been interesting.

But, to my knowledge, no-one has ever put their hands up and said "yes, I pay tax on my SB gains". And nor has anyone ever said they genuinely know someone who does. It seems to be one of these urban myths that you are liable to pay tax on SB gains if it is your main source of income. But I'm always prepared to be corrected.

 

[CityTrader]

Trust me Skimbleshanks, if I ever pay tax on SB wins, everyone will know about it. My first point of call will be the SB firms , upon whom I shall point out the "hugely negative publicity and PR damage that would befall their industry should someone not choose to back me, in taking the Inland Revenue to court over it" and then if that fails, well, I guess starting here, Hemscott, and every other bulletin board I colud find, I'd highlight the fact that SB'ing wasn't necessarily tax free!!!

 

[dc2000]

I can not believe this you think just because I have not been posting long I am a newbie, I have also found this thread posted by yourself asking questions on tax for year 2003. are you telling us this is the first year you have made a good profit and have not even had a determination of your own tax situation with regard to spreadbetting.

http://www.trade2win.co.uk/boards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7648&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

you have still not produced the company name that you trade with. surely it cant be a secret

I would be more than happy for yourself and donald to put your details along with mine on the table for the inland revenue I have nothing to lose and a lot to gain if you are proven right

Forgot to add to my knowledge PWC dont have any offices above chip shops allthough you may know different

 

[Buk]

an interesting debate indeed....in 1999 & again early last year I had lengthy communication with the revenue regarding 'income tax' on spreadbetting profits. They confirmed on both occasions, that NO tax is or would be payable on "winnings" from betting the Financial markets. They also confirmed (in writing) that "neither would losses qualify for relief for taxation purposes" as long as the winnings were for "your own personal gain"

 

[CityTrader]

dc2000 nope. this is actually the first year I've worked for myself, ( rather than for an Investment bank) and thus it's the first year that my PA trading has outweighed any other form of income.
I assumed you were a newbie by the nature and tone of your postings, not by when you registered on here.

I use 4 spreadbetting firms, City, Fins spread, IG and Cant. I only deal on line for indices.

As it happens ( having alread paid for specialist tax advice that my West End firm of accountants couldn't deal with) I have volunteered myself to the Inland Revenue for assesment. So far, I'm still waiting.