Unfashionable Advice

As a disciplined trader - you act. Without thought. Without second thought. Without looking back. - ASC

hello mate, is it possible to develop the characterstics without having exposure of the experience which leads to characteristic awareness/development? you did it the hard way ? according to whom? how did your mentor develop himself ? somebody elses way or his own ?

And do you now regret trading as if you listened to your mentor you wouldn't of bothered trying?? Maybe i'm looking at in skewed but in your case it makes sense to ignore mentors and find out for yourself?

look forward to your next piece

fx.

Thanks an enjoyable and insightful read. Im only a beginner in currency trading and am quickly becoming aware of the task that lay ahead, (not that it daunts me, on the contrary infact). I look forward to the next installment.

This thread is going to become JfTB part 2. Mark my words.

There is not much to remember about trading basics, support and resistance can be very precise. The question is ....when does a person realise this? When does an individual get with the whole programme?

What does an individual need to know? Is it not all there? What are these people thinking?

My advice coincides with the title of this thread. Surely not?

I'll try. Just for the benefit of people who can't put posts together. For anybody else.....you'll have to bear with me.

If you can't, put me on ignore. That will suit you better.

Any chance you could do one post at a time rudeboy? It makes a difference when reading/printing.

Duly merged frugi

The herd thunders by....

Aleph Sigma Chi said:

Hadn't expected feedback so quickly or have I anything else ready just yet, but will address issues raised as you've all be so kind as to take the trouble to read my post and to post yourselves.

Maybe my rambling style occluded the central point I was hoping to make (direct response to fxmarkets comments). Although I had a mentor, I didn't like what he was telling me. Too hard. Too difficult. And assumed it was that way for them, because they weren't as talented as me. That was really what I thought then. My hubris cost me dearly. It was only after doing it my way that I realised I had had to learn those skills my mentor said I would, in order to learn the other skills needed. I'm not sure if I could have gone down the 'learn the skills first' route as he suggested or if I really had to do it my way (as commanderco confirms was true for him). Either way, I got the same education. The difference being in retrospect the way I did was much harder and more expensive in so many ways than if I'd taken his advice. And probably yes, if I thought then his way was the only way (which I truly believe it has to be) I wouldn't have persevered as I have. But then again, equally, did I really have the choice. No real trader ever has a choice about trading. Only the route he or she selects. You get to choose the route only.

rudeboy hints at the basics of trading. I will have more to say on that in due course. For now I should just say that you need to take the journey sometimes to get back to where you started to see it all afresh. I think there's a quote by TS Eliot that captures the essence of that quite well.

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Odd you mentioned T.S.Eliot - I'm in the midst of readng a biography of him; "An imperfect life."
However, I digress:
Many would be traders enter the trading arena to satisfy a gamblers itch for easy riches. Others seek great reward for little effort. Then there are the lazy; the stupid; those genuinely seeking another career and finally ; the naive.

Fraudsters abound in this arena, hawking the traders holy grail. Then there are the mentors who teach approaches to trading, who do not promise that a course will lead to success but are still vilified by those who fail to manage themselves!

Many novices race from one rainbows end to another seeking that holy grail, only to discover, if they survive the hurdles blocking their route to success, that KISS rules plus personal character traits are the more successful approaches to trading.

Sigma makes sense thus far but I would lay odds that many who pass through this site are still seeking that cornfield where the rainbows' end touches the soil.

Nice article Sigma - almost Socratic

neil said:

that KISS rules plus personal character traits are the more successful approaches to trading.

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The latter is a pre requisite and the former is always overlooked by most aspirants due to the reams of literature pontificating every conceivable method to analyse price other than the most proficient.

This advice is not exercised frequently enough, well expressed Neil.

Regards

TMM

Aleph Sigma Chi said:

Years later and after serious initial capital losses

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I don't know many individual traders - those who've been trading consistently for a long time (5 years or more) - who haven't gone through the "I know better" syndrome which results, eventually, in capital loss.

Maybe going through that is part of what makes the 'character' necessary to be a trader. Maybe your mentor went through that too.

I'll concede there are probably some who haven't - those who listened and acted faithfully upon what they learned - but I'll bet it's not many.

commanderco said:

Aleph Sigma Chi
The only comment I can make is " I await your next missive with keen anticipation"

Your first two have been simply outstanding.... the best that I have ever read.

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Seconded

hmmm, now this morning as I lay in bed its still/quiet until you tune into noise,cockeral crowing, birds, wife breathing, dog snoring ! that sort of thing , just as a daily fog drifts inshore so does trading drift into mind. Sitting with this learning to trade successfully, or becoming a trader, its hovering .

Anyway after 15 20 minutes or so it popped out its

Being born and giving birth to yourself.

Ultimately a beautiful thing, how can it be any different?in a selfless way ,as my mind went to a film "Ripleys Game" with John Malkovic (spelling) quote from film " But I do believe we are constantly being born"

The period of this birthing process, growing, giving birth, being born.. years..? I had some funny thoughts then which kinda went like.......... waaahh waah, thud.....congratulations, its....... its .. a currency day trader....... or something out of the alien series and the creatures birthing habbits. hmmm. all this before my first cup of tea.... ying and yang in there somewhere I,m sure.

Then I also thought about this birthing thing........ with men and trading and women who are natural givers of birth... I havent heard a female and I do need to be gender specific here... describe going through then pain of being born and giving birth to themselves as a trader?? why is this?

Now I have no idea about the ratio,s of women to men pursuing trading but there must be some? Is it just men and the ego. ahhhhhh i did read about LBR mentioning isolation as a concern when trading from home in market wizards, but thats about it..... no wonder men struggle , and its said women make better traders.

Thanks for posting.. ASC.

fxmarkets said:

Now I have no idea about the ratio,s of women to men pursuing trading but there must be some? Is it just men and the ego.

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Pretty much.

Men are lazy and, in many cases I think, we got into trading because we had ideas of it being an easy way to make a decent living. Most found out it isn't all that easy and, at least at the beginning, the money isn't all that good, so they either gave up (about 95% do this at a guess) or carried on with sort of dogged persistence.

I think women who get into it, being less naturally lazy creatures, do so with more logic. In my experience they're less influenced by the 'Holy Grail - make a million' rubbish or the snake-oil peddlars who 'have a system' that works for a few months or years and then breaks them; they are better at seeing it for what it is: a very risky and unlikely way to make a living. Doesn't necessarily make them 'better' traders in the long run, but I think they enter in a different way.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I've lost a few small fortunes getting into this game. I've made a few small fortunes too and had 2-year runs where I could do no wrong - thought I was invincible - but that money has gone back into the markets again. One says things like "I'm okay now, I'll put that money away", but times get tougher and one doesn't.

Screw entry and exit systems - they just bring short term results - I think to be in this game long-term it's about money management and strict, strict discipline.

Everyone talks about different types of traders with reference to words like 'swing', 'momentum', 'fundamental', 'position' and such-like, but I don't think those things say much about a trader. I think it's about time. For me a trader can be defined by:

- 'normal': trades for a few weeks, months or years until all the money's gone. May even has long periods of winning, but it goes eventually. Doesn't make any sort of 'living' from it in the long term.

- 'lucky and wise': gets a decent run together and gets out with a profit. Recognises it isn't a living, but through various degrees of skill and luck manages to crack it for a while and then has the wisdom to get out.

- 'pro trader': has been doing it consistently for at least 5 years - probably nearer to 10 - and makes a genuine 'living' out of it. Vey much the minority.

I'm not counting institutional traders in those categories; they're a different breed altogether with different objectives and different resources at their command.

But who cares eh? Just my opinions after all.

ASC
My sincerest gratitude for starting this thread. I hope to see many more enlightening posts from you and look forward to a strong, long-lasting relationship between yourself and T2W.

As you will surely know, in all bulletin boards (T2W no exception), you will often be derided, criticised, abused, misinterpreted, persecuted, threatened and so on by some people. This has happened to all the veteran traders here who bothered to help others. That's part of the net life, unfortunately.

When (not if) that happens, please ignore them and think instead of the silent majority who will continue to enjoy your posting.

I hope the moderators will ensure that ASC is not driven out of the boards.

Women are less lazy?
Then why am I always on top doing all the work?

Aleph Sigma Chi said:

By the way, I spend a great deal of time offline preparing my posts – I don’t write them in one go while on the boards. They evolve over a few days. Get modified. Re-read. Re-written.

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I can well believe it. They are very well written.

Aleph Sigma Chi said:

I expect for my part, to pick up some exquisite learnings myself along the way.

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I was wondering as to your motivation. I hope your learnings justify the considerable expenditure of time and energy involved.

As to the rest, my interest is certainly aroused, and I too look forward to seeing how this will "pan out, in time"! I'm a little surprised you have not generated more replies. Maybe you have wow-ed the lurkers into stunned silence, or they're holding back awaiting questions, or something to get their teeth into, or are frightened of scaring you off.

Old timers on this Board have read too many pitches by snake-oil vendors who dress up their first few posts to ensnare Grail-seekers, before revealing that they are have the commodity packaged and ready for delivery. We also have some experience of Gurus who may or may not have had something interesting to say; but gave up after antagonising their intended audience with condescension, superciliousness, and absurd ego-bolstering behaviour, until any useful message was lost.
It is obvious to me that you are not of the former, and I can detect not no trace of the latter, so any such resistance to your posts should not last long!
pete

Great posting

Thanks for the great thread

Having a mentor is a superb method of learning. I've been receiving some mentoring (this developed from something not as a direct approach) from an experienced trader, and its interesting to read your description of a succesful trader as the two do seem to tally.

I'm often struck by the parallels between therapy and trading. When I was training to be a therapist I got more than a little confused by all the different styles and techniques out there, all saying their technique is best because of this and that. i thought "Surely they can't all be right "eg psychoanalysis, Cognitive behavioural, counselling etc etc. Yet they all get results in different ways. I remember speaking to a old experienced therapist who summed it up for me - "therapy is a science, but after a while as a therapist you become your own artist"

I think the same could be equally said about trading. There's so many grey areas, opinion, evangeslists of certain techniques etc that it's easy to get confused. I'm not exactly sure how you "become your own artist" but i think its a nice metaphor to aim at.

Thanks again for your posts

Dave

Not here often but well written , insightful words my friend , much apprediated

hello, peto, now after enjoying the first two posts, It came to my mind what was the sponsoring thoughts behind ASC posting, and funnily enough,coincedence? out pops post number 3 stating those very reasons. These posts being aimed at new traders? well they are out there for all but, the depth or level and concepts being put across is very likely to be alien to many, or not what they want to hear. And as ASC says he's not giving it full throttle yet either.

Most conventional un enlightened individuals (I dont mean that in a negative way, just a point of measurement as to where people are with their lot ,inside with themselves,their growth etc) will be looking for facts straight and plain, use this method, that market, these indicators etc. But as ASC repeats the mindset, or non physical aspects of our being we need to be working on etc. This may well seem very odd for some , they may of read brief details about mind, and assumed ohh ok then i'll be cool calm and collected, now whats my bollinger band settings... and move on.

Some years back for myself, with trading and life in general I was walking towards Zen Philosophy, hmm and a great deal of ASC reflects ,to me anyway, zen. Theres no doubt to me that using zen or understanding of it will help develop or teach an individual to deal or confront feelings they may have, box them and get back to the present nowness of things, our attachment . very relevant in trading and life.

Maybe ASC will comment on Zen , any use for new traders, ASC, any use for new traders, zen ? Has it influenced your state of being with trading?

Also Im not sure if ASC or if the thread will become littered with questions, thats a good thing though right? hundreds of pages etc, good isnt it, it may take people time to search through but at least Q and A's will be here for ALL to see . I'm sure it will flow its own natural way .........

To teach someone to alter essentially themselves from within is a task, how big, how small. crikey... its like hmmm how can you transfer yourself into them........ we cant? (and shouldn't maybe, ) at the moment, so guidance for them to learn or experience for themselves. Me included...

Now I'll give you a brief experience I had a few years back with my sister, when she mentioned something that she was going through at work with a colleague, I recognised it gave her my response and she replied "J whats that Sh*t your talking" funny still makes me smile, but i recognise that a lot of people do not even or havent even begun to look within to any degree, too busy caught up in the advertised, live life in the fast lane etc.. I noticed that my sister had absolutely no idea of how it was I saw a simple life experience and really that its o.k, the gap is immense but you dont realise this until you one day experience it, you forget how over the YEARS youve changed. Because to you its all so normal.correct,simple, THE way to be. But to others, it can be very,very weird, or abnormal, so some will find what ASC is saying as you know what.

And it has be said that these changes in you can be/is a By product of trading...

As I said maybe ASC can shed his experience at some point regarding his internal shift. I am learning/reminded and sure I'll learn a lot more from ASC and his posts .