If It's All About making Money?

Then why so many arguments?

Actually it is very simple. The bottom liine is not about making money. It is about being right, consistently right. To be consistently right requires effort. But this effort is not physical or tangible, it is abstract.

Overcoming the difficulties presented by what is an abstract concept is what defeats the great majority as early as the first hurdle, because none of this is constructed for their benefit according to the rules used for nearly everything else in modern life. This is different. Its unfamiliarity and cold and cruel verdicts are too much for ordinary people to cope with according to the habits they have acquired over a lifetime.

As many are not prepared or willing to change their acquired habits which incidentally include responses, they attempt and persist in attempting to conquer this repeatedly according to what they percieve incorrectly is the way to deal with a yes ~ no scenario. Their approach, which may well work for everything else except this is ineffectual in dealing with the problem of yes and no, irrevocable yes and no.

I say this because in evrything else except birth and death and age, everything else is repairable or subject to modification after the event, but not this. This is a bitter pill for many people to swallow.
They refuse to take the medicine. They now seek other remedies that do not work.

To make the problem even worse, the outcomes have a percieved value. When these outcomes do not materialise as expected as a consequence ot the above, and additionally through lack of information, correct information, then all sorts of somersaults are done in order to avoid having to change.

The information which appears to be the easiest to grab, that is the most convenient at hand is the one chosen, but frequently not the right one. This leads to frustration and argument, accusations, and so on,because the target remains the acquisition of wealth or perceived sudden wealth, whereas the root problem of incorrect thought is not addressed, because to do this is the opposite of what the ego expects and demands.

Therefore the ego is at the root cause of all this. Money is the ingredient that clouds the issue. If you were to remove the monetary element the problem, which in large measure is one of perception and attitude, would be easier to solve.

RUDEBOY said:

Then why so many arguments?

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Human nature I guess!

And, given that the members of this site collectively represent a microcosm of the Market with its inherent diametrically opposed views, then for every view there is going to be an opposite view! Hence the arguments about everything under the sun!

All I can say is, "If it works for you , then ignore everyone else!" ... but if it doesn't work for you then sift through the "static", work out the facts for yourself in an objective manner, don't allow yourself to be influenced by anything apart from your powers of deduction and logic, always keep an open mind and have the humility to take on someone else's ideas! And, let's face it, no one's going to know, because we're all anonymous here, so pride/ loss of face doesn't come into it, unless you stick your head above the parapet and allow yourself to get sucked in.

Personally, I recognise that I cannot change the pig headedness of others so I don't bother. And anyway, allowing yourself to be sucked in can ultimately be damaging. So leave them to it and get on with your own thing, measure it by the results you achieve, and act on those measurements accordingly!

I must have been typing my effort at the same time as Socrates as it appeared above mine when I submitted it!

I think the following saying sums up what I'm saying:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference"

Yes, it is all about acceptance. But the added difficulty in trading is that you have to accept that to change your outcomes you have to be prepared to first change yourself, and then your posture towards all of this.
This the majority of people are not able or willing to do. If they were brave enough and determined enough in their resolve to do so, everything would be different. Actually is very sad because many are within inches of getting there, but they prevent themselves from moving forward.

Hmm, but in a zero sum game there have to be predators and prey, if everyone conquered their demons things really would get difficult.

roguetrader said:

Hmm, but in a zero sum game there have to be predators and prey, if everyone conquered their demons things really would get difficult.

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I agree wholeheartedly with your comment. But those who truly aspire to succeed have to harden their resolve to conquer all their demons. It is like standing on a plank, blindfolded.

If you are told that the plank is on the ground or the floor, your natural propensity is not to feel nervous.

But if you are told the plank is suspended at a height of 40 feet this is likely to make you vey nervous indeed.

In both cases it is a matter of perception.

A similar situation develops when on the one hand paper trading, and on the other trading live.

It is a matter of the ability and willingness of the aspirant to conquer his demons as viewed through his or her own perceptions as a matter of priority that leads to success, notwithstanding the fact that a solid foundation of knowledge has to underpin this first..

It is no good trying to conquer any demons without being able to identify them first, and their underlying causes.

An excellent analogy.

Like Socrates said ( pretty much ) , hehe

For me personally as a Full time ( self - employed ) trader top of my list of Pros of Trading for myself is FREEDOM . The Freedom to make or lose as much as I want ( ok , so its partly about the money *LOL * ) , Freedom to take as much time off as I want ( used to hate having to run holiday dates past my 'bosses' ) and the Freedom that comes with there being no upside limit on how far u go in this game ( whether it be financially or in terms of how satisfying and challenging it is to really master your discipline and hence your ability to 'win' consistently , no matter how much ( financially you win ) .

I'll be lying if I said it didn't feel good everytime I made a winning trade and made X amount , but to me ( again its personal ) , it feels even better knowing that all those years of hard graft , experience and losers tucked away without a 2nd thought pay off everytime that winner is 'banked '

"and the Freedom that comes with there being no upside limit on how far u go in this game"

I disagree as I believe there is an upside limit in financial performance terms for a full time trader trading for themselves (given the law of competition and risk v return).

And there we go another argument started !!

LMAO . Nice one Tufty , we'll AGREE to DISSAGREE on this one eh

harryc said:

For me personally as a Full time ( self - employed ) trader top of my list of Pros of Trading for myself is FREEDOM . The Freedom to make or lose as much as I want ( ok , so its partly about the money *LOL * ) , Freedom to take as much time off as I want ( used to hate having to run holiday dates past my 'bosses' ) and the Freedom that comes with there being no upside limit on how far u go in this game ( whether it be financially or in terms of how satisfying and challenging it is to really master your discipline and hence your ability to 'win' consistently , no matter how much ( financially you win ) . I'll be lying if I said it didn't feel good everytime I made a winning trade and made X amount , but to me ( again its personal ) , it feels even better knowing that all those years of hard graft , experience and losers tucked away without a 2nd thought pay off everytime that winner is 'banked '

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Likewise here.

The biggest single incentive that originally got me trading was the potential for the ability to make a decent living from home without having to go out to work, with all the stresses and attendant complications that that produces.

And even now that the money's eventually become quite reasonable too, rather than a struggle every month, probably the biggest single incentive that keeps me doing it is the same thing.

RUDEBOY said:

Then why so many arguments?

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At any one moment there are those who think up and there are those who think down - both sets with varying degrees of analytical skill, experience and certainty. Many already have a current stake in price direction (which explains some of the passion - whistling in the wind maybe?). Many will be losers - some will be winners. Some will cheer-lead for their current view (trade) - after all if enough were persuaded. prices wouldl move with them.

That's (just a little of) what makes a market - a few winners (those who toil and sweat, have inside info or are just plain damned lucky) and lots of losers (the punters). Much of this board is about turning open-minded punters into profitable toilers - straightforward and easy it most certainly is not.

1lotwonder said:

beliefs we hold are to me the obvious reason for both losses and arguments - which could be stating the obvious - but there we are

some folks simply refuse to believe the truth. they prefer to walk the easy path and believe everything they hear and read and refuse to stop and think for themselves. although because they may be (trying to) think - they believe they are thinking for themselves.

these are the same people who let their losses run out of control as they refuse to believe they are wrong. the truth would hurt them too much - so in a sense, losing becomes less painful because to alter their beliefs would cause even more pain in the long run.

their beliefs in a quick buck and easy money (especially if its tax free!) lure them to trading like bees to honey.

when a novel and original idea comes to light, these folks will disagree and start an argument as it goes against the grain of what they have 'learnt' in the material pumped out by the media/brokerage reports on the web etc. again, to keep an open mind and the trouble to investigate an idea would be too much pain for them. it is easier to bore everyone to death with their repeated claims and statements they ripped out of that glossy book. this then infuriates us (especially me!) even more - but then i realise i need the ignorant to make my livelihood possible.

in other words, for these folks ignorance is bliss.

however, although must would agree that trading style is individual, most arguments seem to centre around the losers false claims of success (real winners dont talk about it - they just do it) or understanding of 'facts' rather than ways to actually make money. in fact - how to make money probably has never been discussed - because most here simply dont know. im not talking about someones latest magic cross over system here. those that do know are not going to share it with the ignorant and stupid are they! so a big argument erupts with both sides often knowing little about what they are talking about.

i now let it wash over me and i really see this site as a place of amusement when times are quiet rather than a place where serious discussion takes place.

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You are absolutely right in everything you say in the post above.

Last year I exerted a lot of effort and spent a lot of time in attempting to bring a general audience to understand that to try to tackle all of this via belief structures does not work, simply because the way the market is constructed does not give licence to participants to bask in the comfort of the belief structures they dearly hold, and succeed in this as well.

As this is an abstrct concept, it is very difficult to describe but easy to understand and accept once you dare to experience it. I tried in many ways to put the message across, using logic, reason, common sense, humour, allegories, and all sorts of examples.

The thread had more than 100, 000 hits.

The problem is a deep rooted reluctance to let go of what is comfortable in exchange for what is uncomfortable and unfamiliar. I accept this. But in order to progress, and to ultimately succeed, a belief structure has to be exchanged for a reality structure.

This means that the individual has to change the way he thinks, and ultimately the way he is, but only for doing this. The best way I can describe this is by creating a trading persona, separate and different to the one we use in daily life.

As a result of the responses from a minority of disrupters and obstinate individuals, I ran out of patience and gave up, to turn my attention on my trading.

An extension of this is what you mention in your last paragraph. You quite rightly say that the incentive to share powerful effective knowledge is snuffed by the antics of the disrespectful and pointedly rude and aggressive.

This is very much like the myth or legend that surrounds psychological counselling for traders.

It is only traders who have problems who need to seek help. Therefore all that is heard about is how some traders have problems and seek the help of psychologists.

The psychologists in turn only have problem riddled traders as patients / clients.

Therefore the frame of reference on both sides is one of failure and / or problems.

Traders without problems do not have a need to consult psychologists. Therefore psychologists never get to hear what it is like to be successful. Therefore their frame of reference remains biased.

These boards render the same result, for this reason I wholheartedly agree with what you say, with particular emphasis on the last 3 lines of your last main paragraph, above.

Belief is immaterial, being right is largely irrelevant - as I enjoy a good argument this somewhat conflicts at times as I cannot help but argue the toss even when I know my reply will be totally ignored... these days I don't particularly care, however. (Which is to my benefit - I can now have quite a sustained argument and remain largely immume to it at the same time... it feels a bit like sword fencing with my left hand whilst leaning on a bar and enjoying a pint and a chat with the other 99% of me <g>).

Right's pretty immaterial - I might be 'right' about a share and mistime things so I lose... was I right or wrong? Pointless debate, other than occasionally being able to draw a lesson from it so I don't do the same again.

Why do we argue? Some do it because they don't every profit and at least proving their MA system works in backtesting gives them a minimal return and self respect, some do it because they mistakenly believe there's a right and wrong that operates independently of where the money goes, and some because it whiles away the odd quiet moment.... some even enjoy winding there fellow man up <g>

I think there's a significant ego element also - to have the guts to make the trade we need to believe in our judgement, it helps if we feel we are people who are 'right' most of the time otherwise we would be too hesitant about trading... it is then difficult to resist 'biting' if somebody says something we do not agree with.

Dave

1lotwonder said:

thanks - i see where you are coming from now.

case in point though - i have just received a message stating he will ban me if i question one of the main fools on this site! there he is (the member), making accusations like he knows something, antagonising people (who happen to have different beliefs to him) constantly as he keeps on making the same boring, biased and untrue drivel that tends to steer any conversation in completely the wrong direction. as soon as one points out his errors they get the posts deleted and silly childish threats.

how are these new folks to learn anything with such censorship? they know nothing - not even who to trust or believe - so they will probably follow human nature and judge that the most experienced is he with the most posts to his name. when in fact, if we stop and think, we realise the doers trade, and the fool spends all day posting the same useless remarks.


while the moderators support this activity then i guess the markets will continue to operate on the greater fool theory cos this site certainly does! and nobody ever learns


of course there will be those who will ask why i have not parted any 'useful' information. fair question. the answer lies in my earlier post as socrates pointed out. if i were to do such a thing, eyeball counts would soar, trade2win advertising revenue would then increase. i am unwilling to let this happen while the moderators act in such a biased manner



not an argument, just a statement of fact that is my BELIEF why making money is never discussed - only silly squabbles. but lets face it, if there were no squabbles or controversy, then this would be a duller place. then there would be no eyeball count, no advertising revenue, no business. perhaps this whole place has been structured to ensure no one learns and the fools are protected?

a similar idea to the theory of a beginner and his random rewards reinforcement!

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Onelotwonder, consider the following to be a private conversation overheard in public, since it is clear that we understand one another very clearly. <g>

You are not alone in having spotted it . Actually it is quite obvious. This is why I avoid the creature. You again are quite right in this. But I have reason to judge that the reason for all the forceful channelling and deleting is not due to ego. It is due to huge gaps in knowledge and this is a device to gloss over weaknesses. This is a very different proposition to a knowledgeable member being prudent and not giving away valuable information, earnt the hard way, in the school of tough experience. When this gap of knowledge is so meaningful therefore its absence makes the rest of it appear out of context. Then it has to be force fitted at all cost, and if it strays out of control then it has to be diverted. <tic>.
When the force fitting is tested then the true cracks appear and they have to be papered over at any cost, then this is the result. I have already sussed it. <g>

On the other hand, in a case like this, because there is crucial information missing and not available to form a reliable frame of reference that can stand up to the most severe questioning and justificatiion, then what happens is that all of it is disguised to hide an intelligence gathering operation in an attempt to acquire the answers. I have also already sussed this. <g>

This is why you will observe that for me it is very easy to put right riddles that baffle people.
But you will also observe my marked abstention in that regard, which is by choice. I now advise you also not to be generous with your hard earned knowledge either. <g>

Kind Regards.

SOCRATES said:

It is only traders who have problems who need to seek help. Therefore all that is heard about is how some traders have problems and seek the help of psychologists.

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Psychiatrists.

Thank you Bramble.

Soc,
what happened to the trip? I (sincerely) hope nothing went awry? (I've not been all that well, and I've also been away - the combination proved tiring - so apologies if this has already been covered in my absence).

There is a degree of accidental censorship - it is not ill meant, I am sure - caused by those running T2W being more computer than trading literate, and therefore having to go with the perceived flow.... if you attract a following and a minority heckle, then the T2W management are inclined to assume the minority are attempting to spoil things for the majority and react accordingly. In an ideal world posts could be referred to a committee of experts etc., in reality it is impracticable and I don't doubt Sharky would much prefer commonsense and good manners to prevail. When they don't then he is left trying to guess which party is in the right, and unfortunately it can take a great deal of experience to spot the plausible charlatan... in the past there has arguably been too little censorship, now we are perhaps swinging the other way.

We still, as members, carry weight with Sharky - the chap is determined to provide a good board as well as a profitable one... he's tried to learn about trading etc and is intelligent enough to realise that good quality is essential, not just quantity. Anyone feeling genuinely aggrieved should try mailing him, he might not agree with you but he'll explain why... and sometimes that's just a case of Paul knowing he's not 'up' on a subject and has to go with the flow. This will always leave room for the idiots to appear sages.

Dave

Note to 1lot and Socco

If you guys (?) feel the way you clearly do, why post or even visit the site at all?

The vast majority of traders who use this site share their information freely and generously.

They exact no dues nor set any tests for intelligence, character or suitability for trading. They don't feel the need to set riddles or stories or imply significance in the mundane and obvious. They just give of their experience and knowledge for its own sake.

And there is a minority who attempt to set themselves up as gurus/experts and demand to be recognised as such. When adulation is not forthcoming or not in the majority they get fiesty and unpleasant.

Socco - I know you've got an awful lot to give, but you choose to parade around in permanently petulant mode withholding your 'favours' from us - the unworthy ones. It might be easier all round if you simply found a new board to ply to derive what satisfactions you receive from acting this way or behave in a manner appropriate for these boards and their purpose.

1Lot - I suspect you're a troll in disguise - and not a particularly good one. I'm good at spotting patterns and events - some things come in 2s - right? All you seem to want to do is make assertions about other members and pick out one for special 'treatment'.

I thought you'd already wished us all a fond goodbye. Deja vu.

Anyhow, we're all way off topic.