Would you be happy with 15% a year?

[Splitlink]

Trading, no. I'd want more than that because of the risk factor. Investing in something safe is not the same thing because, if you are young enough, you can let it compound.

Anyone who trades wants more, because it was his ambition, at the start, to get rich. It is only after a lot of failures that he becomes resigned to making what he can. 15%, according to the reports I read on here, is pie in the sky to the majority who lose, or give up, frustrated.That is my view, anyway.

Another condition is, of course, that you must deduct your wages and other expenses from it, first. So many do not do that.

 

[tomorton]

Revealing thread.

The consensus seems to be that struggling to get 15%pa is acceptable and normal and to be tolerated. It reflects how hard trading is and how the industry does its best to swindle and cheat us before we ever get near the target.

But not becoming a billionaire is a mark of failure.

 

[Forexmospherian]

So you make 214% annually on your money? And you 'choose' not to compound? I don,t know if you realise this but £1000 compounded at 214% per annum would give you £90 million in 10 years! In reply to Evertontraders original post, let me say you will hear nothing but " I would'nt get out of bed for 15% per annum!" blah blah on this forum but how many FX day traders are on the Forbes rich list? Errr it's actually none.

Shows you just NOT have been there ;-)

Sorry to have to repeat this for all who have already heard it - but this is the 100% truth and is what would happen to most traders who use their own money - and not use OPM's etc etc

After finding a successful FX Intraday method over 8 years ago ( I actually started trading approx 13 years ago and now been full time approx 7 yrs ) I managed to compound my capital account up to over $200k+ and was Intraday trading on up to 25 lots a pip ( At that time approx £160 -170 a pip )

Then I hit my financial wall - or to put it bluntly - I bottled -

At the time I was in my mid 50's and at the age - already semi retired - I did not want to have palpitations and the sweats and anxiety etc etc

I could not handle having 7 losses in a row and see over $10k wiped off my gains in a few days

It had never happened during the previous years of growth - yes I would have 2 or even 4 consecutive losses in a row - and was relatively happy when they were just a few thousand pounds - but 7 + in a row with an average in ratio of over 70% over thousands of intraday trades - completely did my mind in

It took me approx 6 months to feel comfortable at trading up to 10 lots again and since that time - I have never - repeat never tried over 25 lots a pip since.

OK - if I had been 20 years younger - i would have pushed myself - and now with well over 12k more live trades behind me - I have a better track record and therefore might be able to compound again - but compounding is a different ballgame using your own money once you get over a few hundred thousand in your Capital Acccount.

Yes I can live with up to say $5k losses - but I could not live with thinking I might have $10k or $20k of losses on a bad run - even though my wins would be higher

So nowadays - I stay comfortable - normally on intraday on under 8 lots a pips and earn a comfortable 6 figure + every year.

With regards to 200%+ per annum on an account under $50k thats fairly easy for a very competent and experienced trader - ie I have put over 1000% increase on small accounts in well under a week - but no way would I try and do it on a $100k + account - its a different ballgame again

So compounding for me stops me trying to get my account up to say $3million plus and then earn say half a million a year plus for trading.

I would prefer half a million + per year then just a few hundred thousands - but I dont want stress - I fully retire in under 3 years and on say 5 lots a pip - I can treat my live account like a demo account and still make a few thousand a day with no real great pressure or stress

Yes - I know I am unusual - but how many 60+ yr old FX retail traders do you know who have made now over 17K live trades and have been full time for approx 7 years ???

See just don't believe all the rubbish you hear from the trade - ie the Commercial financial Industry - and take it from me - who's been there - got the T shirt and still in the game

Good Trading


Regards


F

 

[Forexmospherian]

What this thread does show - is who are the genuine retail traders - who have made it themselves - maybe the hard way - over years and even decades - whilst the others have just been "mislead" by the Industry and are really comparing apples and oranges.

I could have easily gave up after 3 yrs and even nearly gave up before I went full time - and that was already with 6 years of trading knowledge - - I agree with Tomorton - it is hard - and it only a small percentage will get there and as we know 75-90 % of traders will never ever make it

But think of this

If there are say just 500k retail traders around the world - and I am in the top 5% - That still 25000 traders - and i would say most of them keep quiet and just get on with it

Other estimates suggest over 200+ countries there could be over 1 million retail traders - or non commercial traders - so 5% then is 50000 traders - ie 50k traders who would definitely would not get out of bed for 15% per annum - in fact even those lucky guys with $1 million plus of their own trading money would still want 40% + per annum if they re professional full time traders - and NOT investors

The trouble is the sheeple - ie the 470 to 950k of normal traders who have not quite got there - or will never get there - will think 15% return on say $50k is really good - and for sure - its far better than losing 15 or 50% per annum ;-)

 

[TechQuant]

What I find interesting about this thread is the almost total absence of discussion regarding the percentage at risk to make that 15% profit. The risk you take to generate the profit you make it possibly the most important factor in trading. Addressing the initial question itself, I imagine the vast majority of traders who lost some or all of their capital and are no longer trading would have been happy with even 15% pa, but it is unlikely they would have been so when actively losing money in pursuit of the far larger gains which never actually materialised.

I’d also like to throw my hat in the ring with regard to the subject of compounding which has, quite rightly given some members’ comments, been challenged. Compounding is absolutely vital to your longevity as a trader. While I can understand the need to draw on capital from time to time, or even on a regular income basis, the bottom line has to be the accumulation of wealth. You are going to get losing periods. Don’t believe anyone who says they don’t. Even (especially) pros. If you think anyone would actually choose to start each month with the same amount and then weather the storms which will hit them and which will take them potentially many months to rebuild to that starting level, then you’re the one that's crazy, not the crazy suggesting that's what they're doing. You need to stay on your feet at all times and that means building plenty of fat. Besides, why would you not plough your accumulated profits back into your trading? If you have something more useful/profitable to be doing with your funds, why are you trading anyway?

 

[Forexmospherian]

What I find interesting about this thread is the almost total absence of discussion regarding the percentage at risk to make that 15% profit. The risk you take to generate the profit you make it possibly the most important factor in trading. Addressing the initial question itself, I imagine the vast majority of traders who lost some or all of their capital and are no longer trading would have been happy with even 15% pa, but it is unlikely they would have been so when actively losing money in pursuit of the far larger gains which never actually materialised.

I’d also like to throw my hat in the ring with regard to the subject of compounding which has, quite rightly given some members’ comments, been challenged. Compounding is absolutely vital to your longevity as a trader. While I can understand the need to draw on capital from time to time, or even on a regular income basis, the bottom line has to be the accumulation of wealth. You are going to get losing periods. Don’t believe anyone who says they don’t. Even (especially) pros. If you think anyone would actually choose to start each month with the same amount and then weather the storms which will hit them and which will take them potentially many months to rebuild to that starting level, then you’re the one that's crazy, not the crazy suggesting that's what they're doing. You need to stay on your feet at all times and that means building plenty of fat. Besides, why would you not plough your accumulated profits back into your trading? If you have something more useful/profitable to be doing with your funds, why are you trading anyway?

Its a very good point TQ

See I know a half million or 1 mill capital account for me to trade on - would be a waste of time

My stake size would be under 0 3% - whereas on small retail account I can easily use 20 time larger - ie up to 6% stake size

On a 1 million account a 20 lot stake size with a stop of just 5 pips ( my normal stop size) is just 0 1%

So I just dont need over 100k account - in fact I have been trading even lower that 50K and using up to 2% - because in absolute money terms instead of % risk - I am more comfortable.

I withdraws profits up to 5 times per month and live on my earning and invest other monies left outside of FX trading etc.

OK - if I know what I know today about FX trading and was only 35 years old - it would be entirely different - and i would be wanting to test myself at 30 and 50 lots - but even then I would be very concerned dealing in this industry and so would have to have more multiple accounts etc etc - simple because I do not trust Banks or the financial Industry - and certainly not the financial regulators and politicians etcetc

 

[Fugazsy]

to get to 10% per month with consistency a retailer has to trade small time frame.... which is not easy.... I have losing trades but my goal is to not have losing days.....yes they do happen but less with time......to be able to come ahead at the end of my session I need to take more than one trade, normally I take four, my TP is double my risk... my percentage of winning trades is not less then 60%........to do that I need to trade the 1m TF....now trading the 1m tf is not easy but doable.....Easy? NO...Doable? YES.

 

[tomorton]

TechQuant - you're dead right to stress risk over profit.

My earlier point stands - that because the majority of retail traders blow up their account once or more than once, whether we mean to or realise it or not, the majority of us are risking 100% of our trading capital in any given year to make a profit. If that profit is 15% or less, the risks just don't outweigh the potential gains.

 

[TechQuant]

TechQuant - you're dead right to stress risk over profit.

My earlier point stands - that because the majority of retail traders blow up their account once or more than once, whether we mean to or realise it or not, the majority of us are risking 100% of our trading capital in any given year to make a profit. If that profit is 15% or less, the risks just don't outweigh the potential gains.

I agree with you of course, that's basic maths. A point I will expand upon in my next post.

 

[TechQuant]

Its a very good point TQ

See I know a half million or 1 mill capital account for me to trade on - would be a waste of time

My stake size would be under 0 3% - whereas on small retail account I can easily use 20 time larger - ie up to 6% stake size

On a 1 million account a 20 lot stake size with a stop of just 5 pips ( my normal stop size) is just 0 1%

So I just dont need over 100k account - in fact I have been trading even lower that 50K and using up to 2% - because in absolute money terms instead of % risk - I am more comfortable.

I withdraws profits up to 5 times per month and live on my earning and invest other monies left outside of FX trading etc.

OK - if I know what I know today about FX trading and was only 35 years old - it would be entirely different - and i would be wanting to test myself at 30 and 50 lots - but even then I would be very concerned dealing in this industry and so would have to have more multiple accounts etc etc - simple because I do not trust Banks or the financial Industry - and certainly not the financial regulators and politicians etcetc

Nobody chooses to use just 0.3% on capital base X over 6% on capital base Y. Capital base does not determine percentage risk. And it’s nothing to do with ‘testing’ oneself with larger positions. That’s macho BS and has no place in real trading. It’s all about sensible utilisation of funds. If you could risk just 0.3% per trade or risk 6% per trade to get the same absolute profit, assuming same performance profile and absent conflicting and/or similar performance options available in other classes or structures, why wouldn’t you take the safer option. You’d be crazy not to. And to stuff funds away into lower performing investments simply makes no sense in any way at all. People just do not do what you claim you are doing. I’m sorry; I am saying I doubt your story. If you don’t have the basic requirements for successfully accumulating wealth ingrained from the start you are extremely unlikely to ever get to a point where you could make decisions like those you claim to be making.

 

[2be]

waw, this thread has got some pulse now.
It is important to compound, it is important to pay yourself first, it is important to diversificate, it is important to grow a pillar of residual income and of course it is important to get out of bed to be prepared and ready for the London open.

The last one I treat with with degree of seriousness and respect, especially since I like to stay awake well into the night (various reasons like my family and friends are spread around the world, also during my uni years I stayed awake until very, very late, so this is a very well entrenched habit which has persisted for many years , besides I just like the aspects of social life which partly contributes to going to bed late.). Yet my trading approach demands being awake and clear minded at least 1 hour before the London open, and I live in the UK, so some discipline is at work there, at least for me. This alone is a positive argument to relocate and I would have done so if trading was my absolute priority, which you might rightly guess it is not. My ideal time zone is GMT +3/4 hrs, I have the means to do so, but I like UK and there are some other more important considerations. Due to the above I do not trade every day, possibly I am too lazy for that. I would also find it challenging to get up at 6:00 am for 15% annual increase of my current trading accounts.
Some of you might know that the prices/levels of US close are important to me, that allows me to prepare for the next morning many hours in advance, for few FX pairs it allows me to set market orders well before the London open, but for Indices (DAX and DOW) I like to set them either at Frankfurt or London open.

Please remember the lessons of Jessie Livemore, who eventually diversified and bought into the real estate.
I always would advise everybody to build a pillar of residual income, (Rich dad poor dad - Robert Kiyosaki)

Last words of Bob Marley to Ziggy his son, "Money can't buy life" provides some important insight.

Eternity is a very, very long now.

Enjoy it.
Good weekend to all,
2be

 

[Forexmospherian]

Nobody chooses to use just 0.3% on capital base X over 6% on capital base Y. Capital base does not determine percentage risk. And it’s nothing to do with ‘testing’ oneself with larger positions. That’s macho BS and has no place in real trading. It’s all about sensible utilisation of funds. If you could risk just 0.3% per trade or risk 6% per trade to get the same absolute profit, assuming same performance profile and absent conflicting and/or similar performance options available in other classes or structures, why wouldn’t you take the safer option. You’d be crazy not to. And to stuff funds away into lower performing investments simply makes no sense in any way at all. People just do not do what you claim you are doing. I’m sorry; I am saying I doubt your story. If you don’t have the basic requirements for successfully accumulating wealth ingrained from the start you are extremely unlikely to ever get to a point where you could make decisions like those you claim to be making.

I would need to explain my life story to do justice and answer all your points correctly.

I don't plan to do that - other than to say I started FX trading when I was already semi retired and already acquired a few millions pounds during my 25+ yr business career.

Unfortunately I suffered a massive loss in 2008 / 9 - not through FX trading myself - but basically through funds I had invested in the UK and US in my pension fund portfolio

I would agree with you that if I was only in my 30 's or 40's I would have a different outlook to compounding - but now at a very wise old age of 61 - I have no plans to purchase any more Ferrari's / Porsches etc - I had them before I was 45.

There are far safer ways of investing your saving or profits than in the FX markets and also I am a great believer of never having all your "eggs in one basket" - at one time I owned 4 totally different businesses at the same time and i will say I regret selling 2 of them - but hindsight is always easy.

With regards to what you say about the "safer option" or people just don't do what I am saying etc - well thats your own opinion - but when you have no faith in the financial world - then you do look at the alternatives.

Think about it - all the people who work in normal jobs or careers etc - anybody from Firemen to Salespeople to Accountants and Doctors - they only have the option to use their saving to invest and make more money.

Well my job for the last 7 years as been a full time retail trader and like other people in work - my income covers my living expenses and then with the money over - I invest it elsewhere and for example over £150k so far gone into my 2 childrens education - which hopefully one day will pay dividends for them and their family.

We are all different as people - we all have different strengths and weaknesses - I know mine inside out - maybe you have yet to discover all of yours and then maybe you might look upon things slightly differently

Anyway - good trading


Regards


F

 

[TechQuant]

I withdraws profits up to 5 times per month

Just out of interest, who is it you trade with where you withdraw up to 5 time per month and how much do they charge you for each withdrawal?

 

[TechQuant]

We are all different as people - we all have different strengths and weaknesses - I know mine inside out - maybe you have yet to discover all of yours and then maybe you might look upon things slightly differently

It is unlikely I will ever discover all of my strengths and weaknesses - but it is also extremely unlikely anyone else will either. I'm delighted that you have such obvious comfort in feeling complete in this respect. However there is a downside in believing to have achieved closure on a topic in that typically you will not bother to continue to do research. Even if you're perfect, stagnation is never good news.

On a separate note, with such success in the field, perhaps you can show us one or two of your live trades tomorrow in the live trading thread? I can provide you the link if you like. We typically state an asset, direction, entry level stop and finally exit. All posted in real time with the actual prices achieved. Don't feel obliged but it would be good to get a feel for your MO.

 

[2be]

I would need to explain my life story to do justice and answer all your points correctly.

I don't plan to do that - other than to say I started FX trading when I was already semi retired and already acquired a few millions pounds during my 25+ yr business career.

Unfortunately I suffered a massive loss in 2008 / 9 - not through FX trading myself - but basically through funds I had invested in the UK and US in my pension fund portfolio

I would agree with you that if I was only in my 30 's or 40's I would have a different outlook to compounding - but now at a very wise old age of 61 - I have no plans to purchase any more Ferrari's / Porsches etc - I had them before I was 45.

There are far safer ways of investing your saving or profits than in the FX markets and also I am a great believer of never having all your "eggs in one basket" - at one time I owned 4 totally different businesses at the same time and i will say I regret selling 2 of them - but hindsight is always easy.

With regards to what you say about the "safer option" or people just don't do what I am saying etc - well thats your own opinion - but when you have no faith in the financial world - then you do look at the alternatives.

Think about it - all the people who work in normal jobs or careers etc - anybody from Firemen to Salespeople to Accountants and Doctors - they only have the option to use their saving to invest and make more money.

Well my job for the last 7 years as been a full time retail trader and like other people in work - my income covers my living expenses and then with the money over - I invest it elsewhere and for example over £150k so far gone into my 2 childrens education - which hopefully one day will pay dividends for them and their family.

We are all different as people - we all have different strengths and weaknesses - I know mine inside out - maybe you have yet to discover all of yours and then maybe you might look upon things slightly differently

Anyway - good trading


Regards


F

Those who posses the talent of contributing to many others achieving what they want and making good profits while doing such kind acts are likely to appreciate the achievement.
Those who due to the mismanagement of others, theft or any other misfortune loose all or part of thus gained capital, know the pain and emotional discomfort that such loss brings about.
Those who have the desire and ability to raise above it are worthy to be your companions, as it is from them that one is likely to learn important things in life.
It is paramount to observe what are we becoming in the processes of achieving things we desire to possess.
To be is more important than to have!

I have had my lessons, some have been due to my own naivety and stupidity to allow others to steal or mismanage my capital, and others just happened due to the nature of humanity and economic cycles.
I have regretted some more than others. What is important to me and my family is that at present I am free from regret that might have a negative effect, allowing me to live in the here and now and positively press on while enjoy life including my two little dogs

Some of us who have been thus deprived and have the ability to forget and press on, know the great joy of achieving.

Wishing all to be great achievers,
2be

 

[itspossible]

"Money can't buy life" provides some important insight".
Totally disagree im afraid

 

[Splitlink]

"Money can't buy life" provides some important insight".
Totally disagree im afraid

I agree with you, too. I've knocked around the world enough to know better.

The more money that I can get the better off my family will be.

 

[2be]

"Money can't buy life" provides some important insight".
Totally disagree im afraid

Hi itspossible,
There is no need to be afraid to disagree, we all have opinions and I value yours.
As to this quote, have a word with its author, if you can.
It appears it was true for him, otherwise...??

Your dog looks nice! I got Shih Tzus, have had tree, but have lost one recently, so two brothers remaining.

Continue to enjoy the sunny weekend,
2be

 

[itspossible]

^ive just downloaded some BM.I was just speaking from my experience with money.Money buys freedom and allows you to do lots of things.Shih Tzus are cool .I like toy dogs.

 

[paramaniac]

What this thread does show - is who are the genuine retail traders - who have made it themselves - maybe the hard way - over years and even decades - whilst the others have just been "mislead" by the Industry and are really comparing apples and oranges.

I could have easily gave up after 3 yrs and even nearly gave up before I went full time - and that was already with 6 years of trading knowledge - - I agree with Tomorton - it is hard - and it only a small percentage will get there and as we know 75-90 % of traders will never ever make it

But think of this

If there are say just 500k retail traders around the world - and I am in the top 5% - That still 25000 traders - and i would say most of them keep quiet and just get on with it

Other estimates suggest over 200+ countries there could be over 1 million retail traders - or non commercial traders - so 5% then is 50000 traders - ie 50k traders who would definitely would not get out of bed for 15% per annum - in fact even those lucky guys with $1 million plus of their own trading money would still want 40% + per annum if they re professional full time traders - and NOT investors

The trouble is the sheeple - ie the 470 to 950k of normal traders who have not quite got there - or will never get there - will think 15% return on say $50k is really good - and for sure - its far better than losing 15 or 50% per annum ;-)

So what is your per annum return? For every £1 you risk what percentage is your reward? Your in the top 5% of traders, as you point out, so I would imagine you keep spreadsheets, ROI calculations etc and would have the information readily to hand and ready to post?