Why i think most traders fail? Change your ways. Now.

Trading FX for living is hard unless you have some income from somewhere,also there is no systems can beat markets, if the is one system to beat markets ,then there will be no markets exist.

good lucky

I believe Darwin suggested that it's not the most intelligent, or strongest species that ultimately survives and thrives, but the most adaptable...If you're mentally strong, intelligent and highly adaptable your possible success in this business rises exponentially...
 
Chartsy,.... I'd go along with Mark Douglas, and his explanation of mechanical systems.
They're good for training the mind to pull the trigger,..but as ones ability to "see" the market improves,..discretionary trading takes over,..and is far more expedient in facilitating the profit motive.

I don't recall that bit from the book but a while since I read it, however it's a good comment.

I do like that book but it was a little wishy-washy in places!!
 
My favourite bit is about tears being made up of negatively charged ions because of our emotions.

:whistling

Ah-ha...mystery solved as to why (in my early trading days) the laptop kept freezing...
 
There have been some remarks about "Mechanical systems" vs "Discretionary Trading" . . .

Q for those willing to shed light:

isn't a successful discretionary trader really an [adaptive] rules based trader? Even though he/she personally doesn't register the "rules", they're actually just following a set of rules from a decision tree with lots of branches (perhaps a developed reflex)?

So, a mechanical system has a decision tree with x branches and a discretionary trader has a decision tree with x+y branches? but then logic would dictate that even the discretionary trader can be deemed a mechanical trader if you incorporate his x+y branches into a mechanical system?

And at a very loose level . . . can a successful discretionary trader just trade off of gut and make a consistent living . . . can he react completely differently given exactly similar market stimuli (however defined for that trader) and still make money consistently?
 
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There have been some remarks about "Mechanical systems" vs "Discretionary Trading" . . .

Q for those willing to shed light:

isn't a successful discretionary trader really an [adaptive] rules based trader? Even though he/she personally doesn't register the "rules", they're actually just following a set of rules from a decision tree with lots of branches (perhaps a developed reflex)?

So, a mechanical system has a decision tree with x branches and a discretionary trader has a decision tree with x+y branches? but then logic would dictate that even the discretionary trader can be deemed a mechanical trader if you incorporate his x+y branches into a mechanical system?

And at a very loose level . . . can a successful discretionary trader just trade off of gut and make a consistent living . . . can he react completely differently given exactly similar market stimuli (however defined for that trader) and still make money consistently?

I would definitely agree with this. A good example of a discretionary trader that does very well is the "www.Nakedtrader.co.uk". I would say he is very discretionary, just read his Market comments on his entries and exits... he definitely makes consistent money...
 
There have been some remarks about "Mechanical systems" vs "Discretionary Trading" . . .

Q for those willing to shed light:

isn't a successful discretionary trader really an [adaptive] rules based trader? Even though he/she personally doesn't register the "rules", they're actually just following a set of rules from a decision tree with lots of branches (perhaps a developed reflex)?

So, a mechanical system has a decision tree with x branches and a discretionary trader has a decision tree with x+y branches? but then logic would dictate that even the discretionary trader can be deemed a mechanical trader if you incorporate his x+y branches into a mechanical system?

And at a very loose level . . . can a successful discretionary trader just trade off of gut and make a consistent living . . . can he react completely differently given exactly similar market stimuli (however defined for that trader) and still make money consistently?

Yup, good point. Even "discretionary" traders have a system of some sort. I recall once discussing my backtesting with a discretionary trading buddy of mine. He asked with a sneer "did you optimise??" as though it was a sin.

However, he himself uses a 1wk/4wk MA crossover to signal trades. The "1" and the "4" were derived from something, thus even his system has been optimised.

I see no problem with optimising, BUT you do need to keep degrees of freedom as low as possible. Failure to do that will lead to curve fitting.
 
Yup, good point. Even "discretionary" traders have a system of some sort. I recall once discussing my backtesting with a discretionary trading buddy of mine. He asked with a sneer "did you optimise??" as though it was a sin.

However, he himself uses a 1wk/4wk MA crossover to signal trades. The "1" and the "4" were derived from something, thus even his system has been optimised.

I see no problem with optimising, BUT you do need to keep degrees of freedom as low as possible. Failure to do that will lead to curve fitting.

i see no point in optimising ! i think that you should make rules and your system based on your own logic BEFORE testing it, that's a problem i think, for example when i backtest inside bars on GBPUSD i don't change my criteria as soon as i get 5 losses in a row, mmm that's a bad example but the problem system traders have is that they jump into the market and then make their systems around it, not on their own logic. I'd take a 60% win rate based on logic rather than a 90% based off curve fitting :). as i;ve said before though i think implementing a semi-mechnical side can be benfitial to discretionary trading
 
Everybody optimises to some extent. Any system to buy/sell uses parameters, and to not attempt to improve these seems absurd. At the very least, adjusting input parameters might give you a clue as to how robust or otherwise the system is.
 
I'd take a 60% win rate based on logic rather than a 90% based off curve fitting :).

You're probably just kiddin . . . but if you're not, you don't really mean that, it's illogcial. A high[est] success rate on a curve fitted period is dependant upon the the period chosen itself. If you can curve fit 10+yrs of data and get to a higher % than your "discretionary" system, you really should choose the curve fitted method.

But logic to you would quickly dictate that within that [10yr] period, there are different market conditions which you can individually curve fit to better your %. You'd obviously have to add a filter for what constitutes "different market conditions".

I do however buy the argument that curve fitting a high % return over a [very] short time period is almost always deterimental . . . but then again you have to compare apples to apples . . .

Almost all optimization is an attempt at curve fitting to some degree, imho . . . and almost always a logical progression for most traders . . .
 
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In my opinion, the reason most people fail at trading is because they never learn how to trade. The argument about mechanical vs discretionary is very relevant too.

It is human nature to want to follow a mechanical approach. This gives you a finite ruleset to follow and absolves you of decision making responsibilities.

On the other hand, a discretionary approach is being touted here as random clicking on a gut feel. This is because it is misunderstood in my opinion.

It appears that some people think that a totally mechanical trading approach is something can be developed quickly and/or easily by combining various things they read in trading books. This means they don't actually need to learn how the markets work and what relationships exist between different markets.

There seems to be a leap of faith taken once the basics of TA are understood. People make the mistaken pesumption that cobbling together bits of this information on TA will lead them to a profitable mechanical strategy that will work in all market conditions, in all markets and in spite of any fundamental information at all. If ONLY it were that easy.

Now, not only do people underestimate the effort of developing a non-discretionary approach, they also overestimate the effort of using a bit of discretion. You can still have boundaries when you use discretion. You can still have trading rules. You can decide where your discretion would be applied. For instance, you might use discretion deciding when to enter but have hard and fast rules on stop size, trade size and trade management.

Let's put some meat on the bone of discretion....

eMini.jpg



This is the e-mini - I flipped it on yesterday during the Globex session, not expecting to see much yet games were afoot.

At point "1", we have price hitting prior support (thank you TA). What caught my eye at this point was some guy with over 6000 contracts on the DOM at 1110.50. As price came to him, he stood his ground and brought up all contracts thrown at him. You can see below how the volume rose as more and more contracts got traded. The Time and Sales showed that he was sucking up some serious size.

By point "2", he was down to just over 3000 contracts on the DOM and then someone took him out - basically someone hit him for the whole lot in one go and price dropped off rapidly. Obviously - there is interest at that price level !

At point "3", we can see how this played out. Despite efforts to defend that price level, the game ended here and I should imagine this very much ruined someone's day but made someone else's. Point 3 would have been an excellent place to short on the break of that level (of course - easy to say in retrospect).

So - where was it heading ? The last swing low of the prior day was 1103.25, which made it a reasonable target. So - as price reached that point, it made sense to come to attention again. At point "4" there were plenty of sales going through, not a great deal of size on the bid but price wasn't moving down and then gradually, some fairly large contracts started coming through on the T&S. Here we have TA to the rescue again - an 'almost' double bottom (and doji/hammer possibly on the higher TFs) but significantly, it couldn't break the level, someone was sucking up all the size and big players were starting to put some sizeable orders through.

So - we have TA - support, double bottoms. We also have discretion.

This is not rocket science is it ? It's much simpler than anything I read by Ehler.

I would say most traders fail because they think mechanical is an easy route and never really understand why they fail. On the other hand, they feel that discretion is too high a mountain to climb when in fact, it is not.
 
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As stated earlier,...To be discretionary rather than mechanical, is merely an evolutionary process, resulting from experience.
KISS
Anyone ever keep hearing that old adagium in their heads, when reading some posts ! "Anal"y sis paralysis
 
Just let a trade go at 1.4848,..using experience/discretion, and waited for it to reach next price @ 1.4862 for a sell off,.
 
chapeau !

! I m tending to close it here 1.4872 and now!

touched 3x 1.4872, 14860, 14850, 14890, 14900 ... u ve to do something! no follow-up from your site, is this your style ?
20100623.1039 GBPUSD b.GT.14900 ... not top
 
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As stated earlier,...To be discretionary rather than mechanical, is merely an evolutionary process, resulting from experience.
KISS
Anyone ever keep hearing that old adagium in their heads, when reading some posts ! "Anal"y sis paralysis

All science evolves from alchemy...;)
 
pssonice,...." u ve to do something! no follow-up from your site, is this your style ?"

ahhh,....The hat !,...lol
 
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