What Do You Consider As The Most Important Aspect Of Trading

What Do You Consider As The Most Important Aspect Of Trading


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'Knowing where to get out when wrong', that was really popular, 39%. How long does it take for a person to realise they are wrong? Where do you get out when you are wrong? What happens if you never get it right?
 
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Legion said:
Do you feel at times like you need to set up pseudo challenges for yourself in life, just to see if you would pull through, or is anyone in your life (significant) calling you or labelling you absolutely wonderful,generally, in most that you say or do ?

This is a very good question - and it makes me think about myself in depth.

I have been described as having a short attention span with a tendency to prefer very quick intense detailed training as opposed to long drawn out events with very little detail. I like a challenge.

I am also selfish, and tend to dismiss anything that I consider as irrelevant to the subject in question - from my viewpoint.

I do get praise for my work from some - but I also get constructive criticism, which I take heed of when I see logic behind the criticism. I change as required, when required.

This may be of no interest to others, but I find this type of post very intriguing - not because it is about me - but because it is very different and makes me stop and think.

I may not like the diagnosis - but so be it :LOL:

Regards,
 
darkwanderer said:
'Knowing where to get out when wrong', that was really popular, 39%. How long does it take for a person to realise they are wrong?
When the pain of losing becomes too great to bear.

Where (change to HOW as Where is not relevant at this point) do you get out when you are wrong?
With a market order


What happens if you never get it right?
Bye Bye $$$$

Regards,
 
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de123 said:
it is emotionless....and therefore one trade only per day.
Very valid point - and it may well be the best place to start also.

If one can place a winning trade - even for small gains - most days, then it should be a great confidence building exercise. Some of us however, including yours truly, think we know it all and even though we know it is going to happen, we still place losing trade after losing trade, thinking that it must work this time!

Big mistake - so yes, maybe 1 trade per day is the correct approach until consistent profits are realised.
 
CYOF,

I answered from the perspective of What I found to be the most difficult thing to do during all of my research and that is Knowing Where To Get Out When Wrong. This means admitting you are wrong and must close the trade at a loss. This is difficult to do even whilst paper trading. No many people easily admit that they are wrong. So whilst it may not be the most important it certainly is one of the most difficult.
 
new_trader said:
CYOF,

I answered from the perspective of What I found to be the most difficult thing to do during all of my research and that is Knowing Where To Get Out When Wrong. This means admitting you are wrong and must close the trade at a loss. This is difficult to do even whilst paper trading. No many people easily admit that they are wrong. So whilst it may not be the most important it certainly is one of the most difficult.


I agree completely with that.

Admitting we are wrong goes against our basic human nature.


Thanks

Damian
 
Very important point Damian.

As was just mentioned in the psychology thread, the way we think is primarily a function of the society in which we were brought up in. As M.Douglas (again, I hate quoting books, unless they are logically researched History books) rightly points out, we are bombarded with negative statements from the time we are born, and our educational systems penalise us for been wrong!

It is no wonder we find it very hard to admit we are wrong - as it is instilled in us from the moment we are born, but this is due to the society in which we are brought up in, not due to our basic human nature.

In fact, our basic human nature is the very opposite. Man is naturally creative, and it is this creativity that has yielded all the advancements that we see in our present time.

Going back to History, we find that from the onset of the Industrial Revolutions, which is considered by many as a key turning point in the development of societies and cultures, the medium, or means of mass communication, has been utilised by the select few to maintain their dominance over the majority.

This continued well into the 19th century, and it is only in the last 100 years that the medium has allowed the "masses" to break free of the mighty reign of the select few in power.

I digress, but as always, it is what helps us to produce consistent profits is all that matters.

I stated in the past that the Phantom’s rules were the golden rules of trading. I am now changing my view on this. The first, and most important rule, is to develop a system that puts the odds in your favour. If you don't have a system that, on average, gives you some winners, then no matter what you do you will eventually be bled dry.

Think about it, if you can't enter the market, say with 10 trades, and get at least 4 of those trades correct, how the hell are you going to make any money!

Some will say that exiting is more important than entering, but I now say NO, entries are the key. Again, just stop and think about it. If you p[lace 10 trades in a row, and loose on them all (which I have done recently) then exits don’t even come into it :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

Sure you have to exit, to preserve your capital, but if you keep exiting all the time, well, need I say more!

Perfect entries, and once entries are perfected, then you can look at how to maximise profits by exiting the market.

Perfecting entries is of course not easy, so you must use a systematic approach that has a proven track record of delivering a good win /loss ratio.

What better place to look than to look than at what the professional traders do - after all, this is what they do day in and day out, 5 days a week, all year long.

So, Knowing Where To Get Out When Wrong is indeed very important, but not as important as having a system that enables you to enter the market with a good chance that, on average, the trade will move in the direction that you anticipated. I will be very happy with 4 out of 10 - that means that I am willing to loose on 6 trades and win on 4, because I know that once this is possible on a consistent basis that I will be able to make money by keeping my losses small and learning how to maximise my profits when in my winning trades.

Once the systematic approach has been discovered (I say discovered, as there are numerous approaches that have proven methods for identifying low risk entry points - the fact that it is low risk means that the trade will have a good chance of going the way you thought it would go) then, and only then, should one worry about exiting for profits.

Regards,
 
the Romans destroyed Carthage out of jealousy and fear.....the Carthaginians were too arrogant to defend correctly.....both empires were self-fulfilled....
 
The first four are the most important for those newbies amongst you.

But we professionals recognise that, full well understanding the first four in the list, the path to wealth has been found in:
Knowing How To Add To Winning Positions

After all, we trade for money, and for little other reason.
 
You need to add to losing positions too,
whether your position is profitable or not is not definete indication of having the
wrong side
 
darkwanderer said:
'Knowing where to get out when wrong', that was really popular, 39%. How long does it take for a person to realise they are wrong? Where do you get out when you are wrong? What happens if you never get it right?


When I trade the SP500 I use many different indicators but only one or
two are relevant on any given day, similar to driving a car,
you have signs, traffic lights, traffic police etc, they can give conflicting
signals but you know which one to follow at any moment and what
to ignore,

it's taken me around 5 years of relaxed trading and market analysis
to develop a strategy.

sometimes I can use a 200 point stop, I will add to losing positions
no matter how much I'm losing as long as the trend remains intact.

sometimes I use a 50 point stop or no stop at all, if the market
hasn't moved in my favour within 25minutes I will get out at a loss.
if it moves in my favour I will leave the position running for days.
 
The trend is a function of time,
it may be up for the next session and down for the next few days.
There is no magic , or any single technique or indicator you can use.

and having an 80% winning rate is not good on its own , it doesn't mean
you will be buyng limit down and selling limit up, neither does it guarantee
your maximum losing streak,

I'd rather have 40% winning rate (right over wrong) with 3 losing trades in a row
maximum, fast evaluation of running positions,
one single big winner can make you the same money that you will lose back
in 20 losing ones or getting stopped out 20 times
 
TraderPattern said:
Losers average losers.


You are completely wrong,


First of all,
Mutual fund managers, institutions employing 'cost-averaging'
methods DO add to losing positions when buying stocks
over a long time period, otherwise they would 'miss the train'
hence they can make as much as 400% profit on market move
that only makes only 70% to a 'buy once-hold and sell once' investor



when I take a position I have determined what the trend is ,
if the next day is adverse I shouldn't add to my losing position right?

First , bear in mind that one day cannot change the daily trend
no matter how much the market declines or rallies,
no matter what support/resistance levels are breached
one day deviation is just that,
usaully caused by news,


advice like:


'don't add to a loser',

'never let a profit run into a loss'

'follow the trend ' (follow the most recent trend of prices)

'place the stop below yesterdays low...'


is advice from salaried broker employees and writers, for losing traders
 
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Might be a reasonable time to point out that the vast majority of mutual funds and institutional traders fail to even beat the index ..that is their performance is pretty dire so perhaps adopting their strategy for engaging the market might not be the optimum way to go unless of course all you intend to do is match the aggegate fund performance.

"is advice from salaried broker employees and writers, for losing traders"...and chumps don't make me feel left out ;)

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Although buying pullbacks in a trending stock is legitimate I know it should only be done under very restricted conditions. Otherwise buying stocks which are falling in price is a recipe for long term loss as the trader's/investor's funds get transfered to those of us who trade professionally....
For example look at the tech boom which turned on Mar 12 2000. Some of us shorted from early April, whilst those who kept on buying thinking the move was merely a pullback were severely damaged, many wiped out.
And who were they buying from............?
To even consider buying pullbacks in longs and shorting in down move pullbacks, you need to ascertain that at least the "retracement" has stopped and at least begun to move in its original direction - and that's dangerous enough.
In other words, this boils down to the reality that buying pullbacks with careful money and position management is a strategy, it is most certainly unwise if the "retracement" is the beginning of a trend change.
Richard
 
Mr. Charts said:
Although buying pullbacks in a trending stock is legitimate I know it should only be done under very restricted conditions. Otherwise buying stocks which are falling in price is a recipe for long term loss as the trader's/investor's funds get transfered to those of us who trade professionally....
For example look at the tech boom which turned on Mar 12 2000. Some of us shorted from early April, whilst those who kept on buying thinking the move was merely a pullback were severely damaged, many wiped out.
And who were they buying from............?
To even consider buying pullbacks in longs and shorting in down move pullbacks, you need to ascertain that at least the "retracement" has stopped and at least begun to move in its original direction - and that's dangerous enough.
In other words, this boils down to the reality that buying pullbacks with careful money and position management is a strategy, it is most certainly unwise if the "retracement" is the beginning of a trend change.
Richard


I agree,

the people who lost money in the tech buble , mostly investors buying
real stocks, were not aware of the intrisic value of those stocks,

the price we see on a stock, it's simple how much someone is willing
to pay to buy it,

I was asked to buy ALKS last year, (trading at $23 at the time)
the broker insisted on buying that particular one,
(he was phoning me from Tokio, speaking to me in Greece
for over 45minutes)
I never did, I checked the stocks intrisic value , it was $0.75
and techinically it was on up trend but with bearish RSI divergence,
it did move $2 higher, only to start an one year decline afterwards
dropping over $10


I'd rather buy (MER), it was $70 at that time with intrisic value of $300
more expensive, but worth it,
it is now trading at around $90
 
vergis92 said:
I agree,

the people who lost money in the tech buble , mostly investors buying
real stocks, were not aware of the intrisic value of those stocks,

the price we see on a stock, it's simple how much someone is willing
to pay to buy it,

I was asked to buy ALKS last year, (trading at $23 at the time)
the broker insisted on buying that particular one,
(he was phoning me from Tokio, speaking to me in Greece
for over 45minutes)
I never did, I checked the stocks intrisic value , it was $0.75
and techinically it was on up trend but with bearish RSI divergence,
it did move $2 higher, only to start an one year decline afterwards
dropping over $10


I'd rather buy (MER), it was $70 at that time with intrisic value of $300
more expensive, but worth it,
it is now trading at around $90



It's very dangerous to buy stocks on rumors,
you simply don't know what this stock is, even if it goes up a bit
it may have liquidity problem, so you are winning but you may not be able
to find a buyer right on the top, or worse not find a buyer while in decline
and end up trapped
a lot of people were trapped on such stocks in the greek stock market
during the big decline
 
vergis92 said:
You are completely wrong,

advice like:

'don't add to a loser',
'never let a profit run into a loss'
'follow the trend ' (follow the most recent trend of prices)
'place the stop below yesterdays low...'

Continue to preach. I find you funny.

I bet you are not even trading real money with the crap you are spouting!
 
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