UK Politics

tomorton said:
I got infected because a lockdown was not in place during February. With a 14-day incubation period I might have picked this up as early as the 16th Feb. At that point, no country in Europe had a national lockdown. Even Italy's regions and cities local lockdowns did not start until the 21st.
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You, and many other millions, got infected simply because unrestricted air travel was allowed to continue unabated during an epidemic outbreak. This ensured the virus was spread far and wide around the globe faster than the speed of sound and resulted in the mess in which we now find ourselves mired.

😷
 
MasterOfCoin said:
You, and many other millions, got infected simply because unrestricted air travel was allowed to continue unabated during an epidemic outbreak. This ensured the virus was spread far and wide around the globe faster than the speed of sound and resulted in the mess in which we now find ourselves mired.

😷
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You may remember at that point it wasn't a pandemic and the hope of all health authorities was that contact tracing and contact isolation would be effective. The disease broke out of this containment later when this failed, though nobody knew it would fail so spectacularly at the time.

Maybe the UK government might have applied a lockdown in February, but nobody was asking for that then. In fact many people are even quarrelling with the public health and social value of lockdowns at all.

But its futile to debate in hindsight what should have been done unless we can see evidence that should have been used as a trigger for this. Back in late February, where's the UK scientific / medical argument for our government to immediately lock down? It certainly wasn't coming from the government's scientific and medical advisors. So where was it?
 
tomorton said:
As for the incoming 15,000 people per day, it could be held that these are essential journeys for people to return home, or for people to obtain medical treatment once home, or for people to exit regions of the world with a greater virus outbreak and lower quality healthcare. In any case, 15,000 additional people on top of the UK's 63 million is a daily increase in total and therefore of risk of only 0.02%. It really seems like the definition of either autocracy or health-and-safety-gone-mad to lock people up for a 0.02% increase in national risk.
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MSM has tried to make a meal out of the Cheltenham Festival, that was 251,684 people over a four day period crammed together having a great time. However, did that festival lead to a doubling of deaths in Cheltenham when compared against other boroughs (deaths in Cheltenham are double that of comparable boroughs such as Bristol)?

There can be no doubt that 750,000+ people entering through UK airports, unchecked, since the lockdown (not counting other ports of entry) will have had an impact on Covid deaths, but what is the impact?

My guess is that we will never know because stats have been manipulated, recorded deaths have been manipulated, disinformation and MSM fear porn has skewed figures and then there is the totality of secondary deaths yet to be taken into account.

EDIT: 750,000+ is 1.13% of the UK population of 66 million.
 
tomorton said:
Back in late February, where's the UK scientific / medical argument for our government to immediately lock down? It certainly wasn't coming from the government's scientific and medical advisors. So where was it?
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Well that's a nice easy one to answer:-

7th January; Novel Coronavirus identified as cause of disease outbreak in Wuhan that began in December.

14th January; W.H.O. issues warning that human-human transmission may result in a wider outbreak.

23rd January; China locks down millions in the city of Wuhan, closes roads and suspends all public travel and transport, shutting the rail stations and airports.

30th January; WHO Emergency Committee, two days after the first reports of limited human-to-human transmission outside China. The Director-General declares the outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern.


So it's clear before the end of January that there is ample evidence of an unfolding catastrophe happening.

The UK Government did, well, absolutely nothing.

😷
 
MasterOfCoin said:
Well that's a nice easy one to answer:-

7th January; Novel Coronavirus identified as cause of disease outbreak in Wuhan that began in December.

14th January; W.H.O. issues warning that human-human transmission may result in a wider outbreak.

23rd January; China locks down millions in the city of Wuhan, closes roads and suspends all public travel and transport, shutting the rail stations and airports.

30th January; WHO Emergency Committee, two days after the first reports of limited human-to-human transmission outside China. The Director-General declares the outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern.


So it's clear before the end of January that there is ample evidence of an unfolding catastrophe happening.

The UK Government did, well, absolutely nothing.

😷
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But the points you make each beg questions -

What other government acted sooner and more restrictively when at the comparable point in the virus's trajectory in their territory?

What contemporaneous evidence was there that the UK government should have acted differently at that time?

And I have to ask again whether there was another government or even another Conservative administration that was standing by and champing at the bit to do a better job?
 
tomorton said:
What other government acted sooner and more restrictively when at the comparable point in the virus's trajectory in their territory?
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Well, much as it may gall me to note it, lol, on 31st January, the Trump Administration suspended all entry from travel originating in China to the United States, with only a few exclusions for American Citizens and permanent residents.

I'd say that was pretty decisive action at the clear signs of real trouble ahead.

Unfortunately, the virus had had a good few weeks head start by that date, but if all Air Travel had been suspended then and there, we'd certainly have had a decent chance of avoiding the global pandemic catastrophe that ensued and many more valuable weeks to prepare for it's spread.

😷
 
MasterOfCoin said:
Well, much as it may gall me to note it, lol, on 31st January, the Trump Administration suspended all entry from travel originating in China to the United States, with only a few exclusions for American Citizens and permanent residents.

I'd say that was pretty decisive action at the clear signs of real trouble ahead.

Unfortunately, the virus had had a good few weeks head start by that date, but if all Air Travel had been suspended then and there, we'd certainly have had a decent chance of avoiding the global pandemic catastrophe that ensued and many more valuable weeks to prepare for it's spread.

😷
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Trump was widely condemned for the Chinese travel ban and I'm not going to be drawn into supporting what he did or defending that dangerous buffoon.

Where's the evidence it did any good? Which experts said the UK government should immediately do the same?
 
tomorton said:
Trump was widely condemned for the Chinese travel ban and I'm not going to be drawn into supporting what he did or defending that dangerous buffoon.
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On which sentiment we are somewhat in agreement ...

Nevertheless although this was absolutely the right way to constrain the spread of the virus, it was already too late.

A week earlier, when China finally quarantined Wuhan in abject panic, would have been rather better. And only then if all Air Travel from China had been suspended Internationally, and had immediate efforts in social contact tracing for recent passengers from the region been implemented in earnest. Alas not.

But it's hard to see, given the originating nation's obsessive secrecy and bungled attempts at containment up to that point (both of the virus and the narrative of blame to deny) that effective action could have been taken any sooner than that.

😷
 
MasterOfCoin said:
On which sentiment we are somewhat in agreement ...

Nevertheless although this was absolutely the right way to constrain the spread of the virus, it was already too late.

A week earlier, when China finally quarantined Wuhan in abject panic, would have been rather better. And only then if all Air Travel from China had been suspended Internationally, and had immediate efforts in social contact tracing for recent passengers from the region been implemented in earnest. Alas not.

But it's hard to see, given the originating nation's obsessive secrecy and bungled attempts at containment up to that point (both of the virus and the narrative of blame to deny) that effective action could have been taken any sooner than that.

😷
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So we're in agreement that all governments could have acted more severely and earlier than they did, not just the UK's, and not a single one did.

Meantime, no contemporaneous expert body of evidence has emerged that the UK should have done anything differently or earlier than it did.
 
tomorton said:
So we're in agreement that all governments could have acted more severely and earlier than they did, not just the UK's, and not a single one did.
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We are at that. :)
... And the one that did act at all, got widely slated for it !

(the, if any, debate surrounding rumors that that Government may have instigated this whole mess many years ago will have to wait for another topic and or more reliable information)

😷
 
MasterOfCoin said:
We are at that. :)
... And the one that did act at all, got widely slated for it !

(the, if any, debate surrounding rumors that that Government may have instigated this whole mess many years ago will have to wait for another topic and or more reliable information)

😷
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If it doesn't blame Trump, then we could be waiting even longer than that!

If, OTOH it does blame Trump, we may have an answer much quicker than that!

There's a trade-off here somewhere 🤭🤭
 
A Soviet/East German model of security in the heart of British Government and a breakdown of democracy, intriguing, the dots are being joined.....

I wonder when the high level questioning will start, after lockdown ends in 2022?

Around 11 mins onwards.

 
Last Wednesday BJ stood up in parliament and said he was proud of the way his government has handled the coronavirus.
This exact same Wednesday the UK'S death rate was greater than EVERY OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRY ADDED TOGETHER. That is hard to take in. The UK had more deaths than the combined total of all EU numbers added together.
He stood up and said he was proud.
His words echoed through the press. But no one talked of the facts.
Cummings and the machine have us all brainwashed.
 
Jason101 said:
Last Wednesday BJ stood up in parliament and said he was proud of the way his government has handled the coronavirus.
This exact same Wednesday the UK'S death rate was greater than EVERY OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRY ADDED TOGETHER. That is hard to take in. The UK had more deaths than the combined total of all EU numbers added together.
He stood up and said he was proud.
His words echoed through the press. But no one talked of the facts.
Cummings and the machine have us all brainwashed.
Click to expand...

www.worldometers.info

Coronavirus Update (Live): 122,466,438 Cases and 2,704,903 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...
www.worldometers.info www.worldometers.info
 
Jason101 said:
Last Wednesday BJ stood up in parliament and said he was proud of the way his government has handled the coronavirus.
This exact same Wednesday the UK'S death rate was greater than EVERY OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRY ADDED TOGETHER. That is hard to take in. The UK had more deaths than the combined total of all EU numbers added together.
He stood up and said he was proud.
His words echoed through the press. But no one talked of the facts.
Cummings and the machine have us all brainwashed.
Click to expand...


There really isn't any way of trusting the covid death statistics from the UK or any other country. It appears that the best UK data is released once a week only, covering the previous week, by the Office for National Statistics, every Tuesday morning. The politicians and commentators doe not give these the profile they deserve, for political and media-related reasons. Of course Boris Johnson is only going to say things that make him look good, but its wrong to assume that therefore the real situation is the opposite of what he says. I don't hear that the UK public has a great deal of trust in numbers given out by politicians, it has never been that stupid.

In all cases, total deaths etc. are without meaning as international comparators as situations are so very different n different countries, but also because the simple totals do not take account of total populations. For example I am absolutely certain the UK has had a higher number of deaths last week than Luxembourg. so what dos that prove?
 
tomorton said:
There really isn't any way of trusting the covid death statistics from the UK or any other country. It appears that the best UK data is released once a week only, covering the previous week, by the Office for National Statistics, every Tuesday morning. The politicians and commentators doe not give these the profile they deserve, for political and media-related reasons. Of course Boris Johnson is only going to say things that make him look good, but its wrong to assume that therefore the real situation is the opposite of what he says. I don't hear that the UK public has a great deal of trust in numbers given out by politicians, it has never been that stupid.

In all cases, total deaths etc. are without meaning as international comparators as situations are so very different n different countries, but also because the simple totals do not take account of total populations. For example I am absolutely certain the UK has had a higher number of deaths last week than Luxembourg. so what dos that prove?
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There are stats per capita but that then doesn't take account of in people living in close proximity in densely populated areas.

Either way though I feel UK has totally mishandled the situ, not giving it due attention at the start and more often than not following European countries which effectively followed China's response.

Hardly a lead or a positive result and fails to answer hard questions.

Now we have masks to wear when in tubes or enclosed public transport like busses. Hardly revolutionary and common sense but soooo late in the day.

It's like that old joke, two stupid tramps walking down the road and one says to other mind the shit. The other says that's not shit. One of them then using the finger tastes it. Nah man that's shit alright. Good thing we saw it not to step in.

So when Blundering Baffoon says he is proud of UK's response to the pandemic he reminds me of the shit tasting tramps wisdom. To see what was coming and not respond until you've actually start seeing the deaths and then their whole response to care homes when the illness affects the elderly, to release Covid19 patients from hospital to elderly care homes without proper tests???? Shocking???? I mean it beggars belief the incompetence and lack of care from our leaders and p!ss poor advice they dished out.

fwiw - Last I recall Sweden's per/capita deaths were less than ours.
 
counter_violent said:
Now we all know Krankie believes in independence.
Except when it's independence from Scotland perhaps ! :ROFLMAO:

www.dailymail.co.uk

Shetland Islands councillors vote to probe independence from Scotland

In a debate lasting more than an hour, members argued decision-making has become increasingly centralised and public funding for the islands has been cut under the SNP Government.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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The whole Scottish independence question shows politics in its most cynical light.

The SNP use the emotional pull of this idea as a vote-winner, though the economic position of an independent Scotland would be devastatingly negative. What's even more sickening is that Scottish Conservatives who are meant to be the party of the Union, do not oppose Scottish independence, they just oppose the SNP being in power once its achieved.
 
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